Joe
Lorne Smith
Posts: 761
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Post by Joe on Aug 6, 2019 8:28:28 GMT
Since when does cheap mean rubbish and expensive mean great? While there are plenty of examples of sporting teams like Man City who splash the cash and become successful, there are also plenty of examples of sports teams who have been successful without splashing the cash like Leicester City
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grrm
Pat Casey
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Post by grrm on Aug 6, 2019 8:33:26 GMT
Since when does cheap mean rubbish and expensive mean great? While there are plenty of examples of sporting teams like Man City who splash the cash and become successful, there are also plenty of examples of sports teams who have been successful without splashing the cash like Leicester City Who has said cheap means rubbish?
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Post by messier1851 on Aug 6, 2019 8:33:32 GMT
When it comes to signings it's always worth remembering the words of the late, great Dicky Fox, "It's like popcorn in the pan. Some pop... some don't."
Some players came to us with a big reputation and lived up to it, David Ling had played 500+ games in the AHL, almost 100 in the show and had put up numbers in all the big leagues around Europe, but I'd wager there were some on here who would've been concerned at his age, was he coming for a last payday? This is where the coach, the DoH, whoever comes into their own. They'd know that a guy like Ling wasn't coming for a holiday, he'd be here to put in a shift night after night, he'd be good in the locker room and he'd improve the players around him. That doesn't show on his Elite Prospects page.
Josh Shalla came off a 30+ goal season in the ECHL, didn't happen for him. Bob Wren wasn't far off Ling's numbers in terms of AHL and European experience, didn't happen for him. I'm sure there are plenty more examples.
I know we've got a talk about something, otherwise it's a long off-season, but let's see how we do on the ice, not just on paper.
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Pies
Forum Moderator
Reluctant Chief of ITK
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Post by Pies on Aug 6, 2019 8:44:24 GMT
Just for clarity: I have a lot of criticism I will lay at Panthers doors. Lack of fan interaction, poor social media, lack of access to players for anythignoutside the clubs control, lack of in depth articles, radio on a website when you can stream directly from a camera, lack of discount on tickets, not enough done Tibet interaction with children, the Panthers propaganda machine in general.
I certainly see the club for what it is but I also see the attempts to change. I honestly think we’re grooming GD for GM’s replacement. The continuity plan if you will.
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grrm
Pat Casey
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Post by grrm on Aug 6, 2019 8:47:06 GMT
Since when does cheap mean rubbish and expensive mean great? While there are plenty of examples of sporting teams like Man City who splash the cash and become successful, there are also plenty of examples of sports teams who have been successful without splashing the cash like Leicester City You’re really making iginla’s point for him. How many times does the 5000/1 team like Leicester City, (not splashing the cash) actually win? Not many times, it’s more often than not the team that HAS splashed the cash!!!
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Aug 6, 2019 8:48:44 GMT
Why don't we give Iggy his own thread, maybe called "Why you shouldn't support Panthers", and let him moan away. The only proviso is that he cannot post in any other thread. You can look if you want to then. I actually started a thread about three years ago called “what annoys you about Panthers” in the hope they might just take note of what irritated their fans And the Mods locked it straight away with the word “Nope”. 🤔
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Aug 6, 2019 8:50:10 GMT
Since when does cheap mean rubbish and expensive mean great? While there are plenty of examples of sporting teams like Man City who splash the cash and become successful, there are also plenty of examples of sports teams who have been successful without splashing the cash like Leicester City When was the last time a cheap looking also ran won the EIHL ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2019 8:50:27 GMT
When it comes to signings it's always worth remembering the words of the late, great Dicky Fox, "It's like popcorn in the pan. Some pop... some don't." Some players came to us with a big reputation and lived up to it, David Ling had played 500+ games in the AHL, almost 100 in the show and had put up numbers in all the big leagues around Europe, but I'd wager there were some on here who would've been concerned at his age, was he coming for a last payday? This is where the coach, the DoH, whoever comes into their own. They'd know that a guy like Ling wasn't coming for a holiday, he'd be here to put in a shift night after night, he'd be good in the locker room and he'd improve the players around him. That doesn't show on his Elite Prospects page. Josh Shalla came off a 30+ goal season in the ECHL, didn't happen for him. Bob Wren wasn't far off Ling's numbers in terms of AHL and European experience, didn't happen for him. I'm sure there are plenty more examples. I know we've got a talk about something, otherwise it's a long off-season, but let's see how we do on the ice, not just on paper. This is spot on in my view. Too many times in the past, we have signed players on CV's alone and don't appear to have followed up any coaching reports. As in all sports, some of the top players only care about money, whereas some actually love the sport so much, they just want to play (Ling seemed to be in the latter camp). As said above, the DOH should be spending all his time monitoring current and potential players performances. This way, they will have a better idea of commitment on the ice. Spending top end money on players does not guarantee success.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2019 8:51:31 GMT
Why don't we give Iggy his own thread, maybe called "Why you shouldn't support Panthers", and let him moan away. The only proviso is that he cannot post in any other thread. You can look if you want to then. I actually started a thread about three years ago called “what annoys you about Panthers” in the hope they might just take note of what irritated their fans And the Mods locked it straight away with the word “Nope”. 🤔 No matter what is said on here (even though they may read and laugh at it) the Panthers management wont drastically change their ways because Dave from Carlton isnt happy about something!
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Joe
Lorne Smith
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Post by Joe on Aug 6, 2019 9:07:37 GMT
Since when does cheap mean rubbish and expensive mean great? While there are plenty of examples of sporting teams like Man City who splash the cash and become successful, there are also plenty of examples of sports teams who have been successful without splashing the cash like Leicester City When was the last time a cheap looking also ran won the EIHL ? Irrelevant, my point was that this team is not cheap, it may be cheaper than that of Giants, Steelers and Devils but you can’t answer when the last time a cheaper team won the league because it’s subjective and it would be harder to guess when the gap in quality is smaller
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2019 9:30:29 GMT
Since when does cheap mean rubbish and expensive mean great? While there are plenty of examples of sporting teams like Man City who splash the cash and become successful, there are also plenty of examples of sports teams who have been successful without splashing the cash like Leicester City When was the last time a cheap looking also ran won the EIHL ? Overall CV numbers for league winners since 2012. Belfast 2013/14 looked quite cheap . No NHL experience and low DEL and AHL compared to other years. 2018/19 ExperienceBelfast Giants: 3 892 GP NHL: 893 GP WC: 18 GP SHL: 85 GP Allsvenskan: 403 GP Liiga: 40 GP AHL: 2 336 GP DEL: 102 GP 2017/18 Cardiff Devils: 5 559 GP NHL: 188 GP WC: 19 GP Allsvenskan: 117 GP Liiga: 54 GP AHL: 1 693 GP DEL: 219 GP 2016/17 Cardiff Devils: 5 687 GP NHL: 140 GP WC: 19 GP Allsvenskan: 52 GP Liiga: 54 GP AHL: 1 557 GP DEL: 125 GP 2015/16 Sheffield Steelers: 5 392 GP NHL: 42 GP WC: 29 GP SHL: 72 GP Allsvenskan: 1 031 GP Liiga: 20 GP Czech: 641 GP AHL: 2 226 GP DEL: 119 GP 2014/15 Sheffield Steelers: 5 566 GP NHL: 23 GP WC: 27 GP SHL: 12 GP Allsvenskan: 91 GP Liiga: 20 GP Czech: 166 GP AHL: 1 966 GP DEL: 201 GP 2013/14 Belfast Giants: 5 036 GP WC: 13 GP Allsvenskan: 33 GP Liiga: 10 GP AHL: 546 GP DEL: 787 GP 2012/13 Nottingham Panthers: 5 987 GP NHL: 355 GP WC: 26 GP Liiga: 51 GP KHL: 95 GP Czech: 81 GP AHL: 1 832 GP DEL: 38 GP
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2019 9:33:10 GMT
Compare the above to Sheffield's CV that year
Sheffield Steelers: 4 253 GP NHL: 118 GP WC: 28 GP SHL: 35 GP Allsvenskan: 99 GP Liiga: 31 GP Czech: 105 GP AHL: 2 539 GP DEL: 47 GP
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Post by bobness on Aug 6, 2019 9:39:59 GMT
I know many on here like facts, so I’ll start with a couple: 1) I don’t personally know anyone on this forum, so have no axe to grind. 2) I actually like the look of this years squad and I’m looking forward to seeing them in action. Some people on this forum are obviously “glass half empty” types and some “glass half full” types. Many are getting irritated by iginla’s constant negative comments towards the Panthers organisation, yet much of what he says is closer to the truth than the glass half full types could unfortunately ever acknowledge. He’s portrayal of incomes and costs in the running of Panthers as “factual” is obviously wrong, as like everyone on here he doesn’t actually know the figures. However, in my opinion he is probably reasonably close to the truth. So whilst l accept no one here will have the figures, can anyone provide reasonable logic as to why Panthers would NOT have the highest cash income of any EIHL team? By the same token, can anyone provide reasonable logic as to why Panthers costs would by wildly higher than say Sheffield or Belfast? Don’t forget I’m not expecting cold hard figures, just reasonable logic. The upshot of this is I believe iginla is probably fairly close to the mark and certainly agree that relatively speaking we look like we are underspending on our squad compared to Sheffield and possibly Cardiff and Belfast. I don’t agree with everything iginla says, but equally it does make me smile at some of the “Panthers can do no wrong” posters on here, equally laughable really. All they seem to do is pull iginla down for not having the “facts” in triplicate and signed off by Price Waterhouse. So to finish, rather than just “poo pooing” iginla’s sentiment regarding incomes / costs: 1) let’s have some reasonable logic as to why he might be wrong 2) don’t forget I like this years squad, so I’m not actually complaining about what we have spent on the squad! What we know for a fact.Various people have a fag packet or three. The figures they some up with may or may not be anything like the truth. Season ticket sales look in the region of £650k odd by the end of June. Thus around 2,200 at an average of £300 each? What we guess atSponsorship numbers (FWIW, I don't think they're anything like Iggy quotes. GM deals mainly in "tit for tat" sponsorship. "Give us a gym membership for all our players and you can have a patch on the shirt and a full page programme advert". The Nottingham might put some cash in but £1m a year? That's a long way off the mark, surely?) Say £50k in actual cash? Revenue numbers from non season ticket holders. 35 games x 3000 non season ticket attendance x £14 a ticket overall? £1.5m ish. I won't count pre season games here, but that could eb an extra £20k? Gross ticket revenue is thus £2.25m ish. Player costs - £1000 a week average for all 22 players for 35 ish weeks (Sept to March) = £800k (rounded). Arguably less, could be more? Back room staff - GM/GD/office staff etc. £250k a season? 40 hires of the arena at £20k a go? £800k Housing etc costs for players - £1000 a month each? 20 x 1000 x 8 = £160k (might be more as tricky to rent flats etc for 8m at a time) Sundry costs - pucks/consumables etc. £10k? Usual overheads. Rent/rates/bank charges/light/heat etc £100k a season? Assuming kit breaks even, I thus get Revenue £2.3m ish Costs £2.1m Profit £200k. I can cope with that. It's a bit less than well over a million though. Shoot away, it's only an opinion. My fag packet is as valid as yours. What we don't know at allAny exact amounts for income or costs for the club. Or any other EIHL club, for that matter. And there lies the issue.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Aug 6, 2019 9:44:00 GMT
When was the last time a cheap looking also ran won the EIHL ? Irrelevant, my point was that this team is not cheap, it may be cheaper than that of Giants, Steelers and Devils but you can’t answer when the last time a cheaper team won the league because it’s subjective and it would be harder to guess when the gap in quality is smaller Put it this way. There’s a reason why the less well off teams never win the league. Explain to us why they don’t please ?
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Joe
Lorne Smith
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Post by Joe on Aug 6, 2019 9:51:48 GMT
Irrelevant, my point was that this team is not cheap, it may be cheaper than that of Giants, Steelers and Devils but you can’t answer when the last time a cheaper team won the league because it’s subjective and it would be harder to guess when the gap in quality is smaller Put it this way. There’s a reason why the less well off teams never win the league. Explain to us why they don’t please ? Generally because they are way off other teams in terms of quality, what about Storm in 17/18 season, do you reckon they outspent everybody else but Cardiff?
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Aug 6, 2019 9:52:02 GMT
I know many on here like facts, so I’ll start with a couple: 1) I don’t personally know anyone on this forum, so have no axe to grind. 2) I actually like the look of this years squad and I’m looking forward to seeing them in action. Some people on this forum are obviously “glass half empty” types and some “glass half full” types. Many are getting irritated by iginla’s constant negative comments towards the Panthers organisation, yet much of what he says is closer to the truth than the glass half full types could unfortunately ever acknowledge. He’s portrayal of incomes and costs in the running of Panthers as “factual” is obviously wrong, as like everyone on here he doesn’t actually know the figures. However, in my opinion he is probably reasonably close to the truth. So whilst l accept no one here will have the figures, can anyone provide reasonable logic as to why Panthers would NOT have the highest cash income of any EIHL team? By the same token, can anyone provide reasonable logic as to why Panthers costs would by wildly higher than say Sheffield or Belfast? Don’t forget I’m not expecting cold hard figures, just reasonable logic. The upshot of this is I believe iginla is probably fairly close to the mark and certainly agree that relatively speaking we look like we are underspending on our squad compared to Sheffield and possibly Cardiff and Belfast. I don’t agree with everything iginla says, but equally it does make me smile at some of the “Panthers can do no wrong” posters on here, equally laughable really. All they seem to do is pull iginla down for not having the “facts” in triplicate and signed off by Price Waterhouse. So to finish, rather than just “poo pooing” iginla’s sentiment regarding incomes / costs: 1) let’s have some reasonable logic as to why he might be wrong 2) don’t forget I like this years squad, so I’m not actually complaining about what we have spent on the squad! What we know for a fact.Various people have a fag packet or three. The figures they some up with may or may not be anything like the truth. Season ticket sales look in the region of £650k odd by the end of June. Thus around 2,200 at an average of £300 each? What we guess atSponsorship numbers (FWIW, I don't think they're anything like Iggy quotes. GM deals mainly in "tit for tat" sponsorship. "Give us a gym membership for all our players and you can have a patch on the shirt and a full page programme advert". The Nottingham might put some cash in but £1m a year? That's a long way off the mark, surely?) Say £50k in actual cash? Revenue numbers from non season ticket holders. 35 games x 3000 non season ticket attendance x £14 a ticket overall? £1.5m ish. I won't count pre season games here, but that could eb an extra £20k? Gross ticket revenue is thus £2.25m ish. Player costs - £1000 a week average for all 22 players for 35 ish weeks (Sept to March) = £800k (rounded). Arguably less, could be more? Back room staff - GM/GD/office staff etc. £250k a season? 40 hires of the arena at £20k a go? £800k Housing etc costs for players - £1000 a month each? 20 x 1000 x 8 = £160k (might be more as tricky to rent flats etc for 8m at a time) Sundry costs - pucks/consumables etc. £10k? Usual overheads. Rent/rates/bank charges/light/heat etc £100k a season? Assuming kit breaks even, I thus get Revenue £2.3m ish Costs £2.1m Profit £200k. I can cope with that. It's a bit less than well over a million though. Shoot away, it's only an opinion. My fag packet is as valid as yours. What we don't know at allAny exact amounts for income or costs for the club. Or any other EIHL club, for that matter. And there lies the issue. When I’ve got the time tonight I’ll punch so many holes in that it will be like a colander. £1000 a week for all 22 players and a £1000 a week for housing rent ? 😳😳😳
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2019 9:59:43 GMT
Tax also has to be taken into account in these ‘fag packet’ calculations, especially VAT as that will take 20% of ticket & merchandise revenue.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2019 10:08:53 GMT
I'm sure Panthers fans are the only fanbase who come out with all this fictional figures every year.. most fans prefer to concentrate what's on the ice !
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grrm
Pat Casey
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Post by grrm on Aug 6, 2019 10:13:55 GMT
I'm sure Panthers fans are the only fanbase who come out with all this fictional figures every year.. most fans prefer to concentrate what's on the ice ! Maybe it’s only Panthers fans who feel their club takes the poo poo with their hard earned cash?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2019 10:16:26 GMT
Tax also has to be taken into account in these ‘fag packet’ calculations, especially VAT as that will take 20% of ticket & merchandise revenue. Don't forget player and liability insurance.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2019 10:16:59 GMT
I'm sure Panthers fans are the only fanbase who come out with all this fictional figures every year.. most fans prefer to concentrate what's on the ice ! Maybe it’s only Panthers fans who feel their club takes the poo poo with their hard earned cash? But then those who moan keep turning up every night ...
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grrm
Pat Casey
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Post by grrm on Aug 6, 2019 10:30:58 GMT
Maybe it’s only Panthers fans who feel their club takes the poo poo with their hard earned cash? But then those who moan keep turning up every night ... That’s a separate issue to why Panthers fans talk about where the cash goes each year.
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grrm
Pat Casey
Posts: 223
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Post by grrm on Aug 6, 2019 10:41:54 GMT
Tax also has to be taken into account in these ‘fag packet’ calculations, especially VAT as that will take 20% of ticket & merchandise revenue. Don't forget player and liability insurance. All these little extras like insurance, cost of the pucks (lol), vat etc are just red herrings, because they will be pretty similar at all the clubs we are comparing against. For the sake of sounding like a broken record, the individual figures for each club are not known and are largely irrelevant. Panthers will almost certainly have the largest cash income (again, please someone explain how this may not be true) and their outgoings / costs will be very similar to the other “big” clubs - yet we regularly appear to underspend on the squad when compared to the other big clubs. It is because of this that some argue we are hardly ever in with a shout of winning the league.
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Post by pingchowchi on Aug 6, 2019 10:59:39 GMT
I hope everyone has deducted at least 10% from the ticket revenue as that seems to be the amount of freebie tickets most of the posters on here claim are given out at each game?
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Aug 6, 2019 11:08:00 GMT
And has everybody taken into account that every EIHL team has to pay for insurance pucks,housing, flights, equipment etc etc etc. Or do all the other teams somehow get all this stuff free. 🙄 Apart from arena hire the incidental costs in Nottingham should be pretty much the same at any club,they all have a similar amount of players to bring over and look after. As for tax well yes....but where does Bermuda fit into that picture ! 🤔
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