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Post by kievthegreat on Jan 5, 2022 13:56:21 GMT
Thinking about this, do any of the local anoraks track who is on a Uni deal? Curious if other sides have been giving out more degrees and saving money on wages? I dont track it but somebody mentioned to me the other day that Brlfast have something like 7 Coukd Panthers have fluffed it big time here? Welsh is on a Uni deal, but are any others? 1 vs 7 could explain a big discrepancy. If Belfast pay basically subsistence wages to those 7, that frees up plenty of wedge for the other 7 imports, plus expensive Brits like Conway. |
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jan 5, 2022 14:07:56 GMT
Do Loughborough even give us 7 places to use?
Anyway, I'm sure he's a decent chap and I don't particularly like to see people lose their jobs, but sport is like that I guess so it's the correct decision for me. Playing below .500 is not good enough.
That we still need to get rid of Doucet and Blacky himself doesn't change that, and he was always going to be first to go.
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Jord v4
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Post by Jord v4 on Jan 5, 2022 14:18:59 GMT
Belfast's looks stronger yes but when you see their level of experience/age compared to Sheffield in particular it makes we wonder. Not wishing to get into a "he said/she said" back and forth job but, worth pointing out that Steelers started the season with only 2 forwards and 2 D who hadn't played in the EIHL before, and one of them left pretty quickly. Panthers started with 7. Giants had 11 new faces, only 3 returning import skaters. I think maybe Panthers in general thought the league wouldn't be as competitive as it has turned out. They didn't tweak much, and it was generally "more of the same" but most others moved on over the summer. If you follow MotoGP, a bit like Suzuki's season in 2021. The coach is normally the first to fall, sadly. I was referring to experience at a higher/perceived better level. Belfast's experience is low but they are a younger team so it somewhat negates. Some of their CV's screamed quality for sure. Putting a cap ceiling in provided Black with the ammunition he required to lower the spend; perhaps, as you elude to, the Elite Series win gave Gui false beliefs. |
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Post by Bagheera on Jan 5, 2022 14:19:37 GMT
I dont track it but somebody mentioned to me the other day that Brlfast have something like 7 Coukd Panthers have fluffed it big time here? Welsh is on a Uni deal, but are any others? 1 vs 7 could explain a big discrepancy. If Belfast pay basically subsistence wages to those 7, that frees up plenty of wedge for the other 7 imports, plus expensive Brits like Conway. Welsh is now the only 1 I believe. |
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Jord v4
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Post by Jord v4 on Jan 5, 2022 14:20:32 GMT
Do Loughborough even give us 7 places to use? Anyway, I'm sure he's a decent chap and I don't particularly like to see people lose their jobs, but sport is like that I guess so it's the correct decision for me. Playing below .500 is not good enough. That we still need to get rid of Doucet and Blacky himself doesn't change that, and he was always going to be first to go. We have two max now I believe, I think we had three one year. |
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Post by kievthegreat on Jan 5, 2022 14:21:48 GMT
Do Loughborough even give us 7 places to use? Probably not. I can think of times we've maybe had 4 max on degrees. That said, if it's a way round a cap, surely clubs could just pay their tuition fees out of pocket? I'm just wondering if perhaps this is a good cap exploit, but then I don't think Sheffield have nearly that many and they've still got a better value for money roster. I mean it's all hypothetical as the EIHL rules are clear as mud, but the difference in savings on top players between 1 uni deal vs 7 would be potentially huge. Jord, do the guys on Uni deals generally get much lower wages? I'd assume they would get tuition, house and then basically subsistence money like a few hundred pounds a week? Wondering how much of the £12.5k cap you'd save with 6 extra uni deals. |
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Post by Bagheera on Jan 5, 2022 14:45:55 GMT
Do Loughborough even give us 7 places to use? Probably not. I can think of times we've maybe had 4 max on degrees. That said, if it's a way round a cap, surely clubs could just pay their tuition fees out of pocket? I'm just wondering if perhaps this is a good cap exploit, but then I don't think Sheffield have nearly that many and they've still got a better value for money roster. I mean it's all hypothetical as the EIHL rules are clear as mud, but the difference in savings on top players between 1 uni deal vs 7 would be potentially huge. Jord, do the guys on Uni deals generally get much lower wages? I'd assume they would get tuition, house and then basically subsistence money like a few hundred pounds a week? Wondering how much of the £12.5k cap you'd save with 6 extra uni deals. Jord and an ITK may likely no more but I dont think thats how it works. They are in theory used to tip a good players deal over the edge where you cant typically afford a max of say £1k a week on 1 player. Offer Lepine £1k a week and he says no. Offer him £1k a week + a uni deal it's a yes. |
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Jord v4
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Post by Jord v4 on Jan 5, 2022 14:50:48 GMT
Do Loughborough even give us 7 places to use? Jord, do the guys on Uni deals generally get much lower wages? I'd assume they would get tuition, house and then basically subsistence money like a few hundred pounds a week? Wondering how much of the £12.5k cap you'd save with 6 extra uni deals. Panthers were only saving about 35% on completed uni deals but this was a few years ago, I haven't seen much more info on it since. There were completion agreements in place with these deals in the past where a final payment from Panthers was made to the player, this would be classed as a bonus rather than the wage budget. Basic bursary type payments weren't provided by Panthers at all. You would think other clubs have the same arrangement roughly but a lot depends on the Uni involved & how they deal with the club. |
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Post by Jord v4 on Jan 5, 2022 14:52:09 GMT
Probably not. I can think of times we've maybe had 4 max on degrees. That said, if it's a way round a cap, surely clubs could just pay their tuition fees out of pocket? I'm just wondering if perhaps this is a good cap exploit, but then I don't think Sheffield have nearly that many and they've still got a better value for money roster. I mean it's all hypothetical as the EIHL rules are clear as mud, but the difference in savings on top players between 1 uni deal vs 7 would be potentially huge. Jord, do the guys on Uni deals generally get much lower wages? I'd assume they would get tuition, house and then basically subsistence money like a few hundred pounds a week? Wondering how much of the £12.5k cap you'd save with 6 extra uni deals. Jord and an ITK may likely no more but I dont think thats how it works. They are in theory used to tip a good players deal over the edge where you cant typically afford a max of say £1k a week on 1 player. Offer Lepine £1k a week and he says no. Offer him £1k a week + a uni deal it's a yes. This is part of my day job... kinda. Edit, sorry that sounded a little crass. In theory you're correct. It's a sweetener to push a deal over the line in some cases, it provides players with a potential avenue to their future career of course. |
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Post by Daddio on Jan 5, 2022 14:55:22 GMT
For me the recruitment has lacked a couple of things this year. Firstly most people agree we lack a tough guy who can keep other teams honest. Then we really don't have anyone who is a game changer we don't have either a Jordan Fox, David Ling, jade Galbraith or Sam Herr who can turn a game for us and motivate the team. It's been much needed this year
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Post by kievthegreat on Jan 5, 2022 15:01:47 GMT
Jord, do the guys on Uni deals generally get much lower wages? I'd assume they would get tuition, house and then basically subsistence money like a few hundred pounds a week? Wondering how much of the £12.5k cap you'd save with 6 extra uni deals. Panthers were only saving about 35% on completed uni deals but this was a few years ago, I haven't seen much more info on it since. There were completion agreements in place with these deals in the past where a final payment from Panthers was made to the player, this would be classed as a bonus rather than the wage budget. Basic bursary type payments weren't provided by Panthers at all. You would think other clubs have the same arrangement roughly but a lot depends on the Uni involved & how they deal with the club. Fair enough, although saving 35% on a player's salary, done 6 extra times, is still 2 whole players wages saved. If you're working to a tighter wage structure then even small advantages can come in handy. |
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 5, 2022 15:08:10 GMT
Panthers were only saving about 35% on completed uni deals but this was a few years ago, I haven't seen much more info on it since. There were completion agreements in place with these deals in the past where a final payment from Panthers was made to the player, this would be classed as a bonus rather than the wage budget. Basic bursary type payments weren't provided by Panthers at all. You would think other clubs have the same arrangement roughly but a lot depends on the Uni involved & how they deal with the club. Fair enough, although saving 35% on a player's salary, done 6 extra times, is still 2 whole players wages saved. If you're working to a tighter wage structure then even small advantages can come in handy. Queens is very well known and popular across the Atlantic |
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Post by Jord v4 on Jan 5, 2022 15:10:21 GMT
Panthers were only saving about 35% on completed uni deals but this was a few years ago, I haven't seen much more info on it since. There were completion agreements in place with these deals in the past where a final payment from Panthers was made to the player, this would be classed as a bonus rather than the wage budget. Basic bursary type payments weren't provided by Panthers at all. You would think other clubs have the same arrangement roughly but a lot depends on the Uni involved & how they deal with the club. Fair enough, although saving 35% on a player's salary, done 6 extra times, is still 2 whole players wages saved. If you're working to a tighter wage structure then even small advantages can come in handy. Exactly. The very rough math was for every 3 uni deals you get one more player to sign... However it's ideal to remember the players you can entice to a uni deal are ideally of a higher quality & at a certain age. These guys tend to cost the most in a player budget. Loughborough Uni's Registry dept. went through financial regulation a couple of years ago & I haven't seen any paperwork since. The Simmses. |
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Post by Jord v4 on Jan 5, 2022 15:12:46 GMT
Fair enough, although saving 35% on a player's salary, done 6 extra times, is still 2 whole players wages saved. If you're working to a tighter wage structure then even small advantages can come in handy. Queens is very well known and popular across the Atlantic SBE at Loughborough is very highly rated as well though I believe. |
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 5, 2022 15:15:52 GMT
Queens is very well known and popular across the Atlantic SBE at Loughborough is very highly rated as well though I believe. It is but obviously not in demand like Queens. |
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Post by wgray on Jan 5, 2022 15:35:39 GMT
If we are spending the same wages as the other teams then have the others been able to attract better players as they can offer other add-ons (which aren’t incorporated into the wage cap) that make their club more attractive.
Are other teams spending money on uni deals, nicer houses and cars, finding work for players partners.
Have we struggled to be as effective on this side with the unfortunate ill health of GM?
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Post by Daddio on Jan 5, 2022 15:38:51 GMT
I think there will be many gaps in knowledge and cunning left by the the loss of GM which may take quite a while to recognise and fill
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Jord v4
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Post by Jord v4 on Jan 5, 2022 15:54:32 GMT
If we are spending the same wages as the other teams then have the others been able to attract better players as they can offer other add-ons (which aren’t incorporated into the wage cap) that make their club more attractive. Are other teams spending money on uni deals, nicer houses and cars, finding work for players partners. Have we struggled to be as effective on this side with the unfortunate ill health of GM? Gary had no involvement in the on ice recruitment at all. Absolutely zero. His GM role was from a sponsorship/endorsements side of things. Corey did nearly all his own recruitment & left the paperwork to the office girls. Chernomaz did his own recruitment then had a bottle of whisky to celebrate. Gui does the recruitment now & sacks the HC after he spends it incorrectly. Regarding the budget I don't think we've spent as much, no. I know for a fact we didn't in the recent past & whilst I have less knowledge there now all the signs point to the same situ, albeit with a different dynamic. The wage cap was brought in to reign in two teams' spending as the feeling was it was potentially creating too large a gap under what are testing financial times. Teams don't have to spend that full amount, their discretion. |
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 5, 2022 16:17:05 GMT
I think there will be many gaps in knowledge and cunning left by the the loss of GM which may take quite a while to recognise and fill The people they have there now wouldn’t get it in a hundred years |
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Post by wgray on Jan 5, 2022 17:02:46 GMT
If we are spending the same wages as the other teams then have the others been able to attract better players as they can offer other add-ons (which aren’t incorporated into the wage cap) that make their club more attractive. Are other teams spending money on uni deals, nicer houses and cars, finding work for players partners. Have we struggled to be as effective on this side with the unfortunate ill health of GM? Gary had no involvement in the on ice recruitment at all. Absolutely zero. His GM role was from a sponsorship/endorsements side of things. Corey did nearly all his own recruitment & left the paperwork to the office girls. Chernomaz did his own recruitment then had a bottle of whisky to celebrate. Gui does the recruitment now & sacks the HC after he spends it incorrectly. Regarding the budget I don't think we've spent as much, no. I know for a fact we didn't in the recent past & whilst I have less knowledge there now all the signs point to the same situ, albeit with a different dynamic. The wage cap was brought in to reign in two teams' spending as the feeling was it was potentially creating too large a gap under what are testing financial times. Teams don't have to spend that full amount, their discretion. So who within the club would be looking to make the likes of uni-deals, housing, cars, work for partner, available to the players? Is it someone within the office and Doucet explains what might available when’s he trying to recruit players? I just can’t fathom how we can be so far behind the other teams in terms of quality if we’re spending the same on wages as the others. There’s no reason for Doucet to say it if it’s not the case either. There must be benefits that other teams are offering that we aren’t surely? |
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Jan 5, 2022 18:13:00 GMT
I guess this is what the DOH does during the season then... Fires the guy directly below him to save his job. He’d better hope results pick up then because Doucet’s head has got to be the next one on the chopping block ! |
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Post by iginla on Jan 5, 2022 18:15:08 GMT
Key quote for me: "We're spending cap, just like they are (Cardiff/Belfast/Sheffield)". Signing his own P45? I was surprised he said that because yes shot himself in the foot there. Both feet in fact. 🙄 |
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Post by iginla on Jan 5, 2022 18:21:32 GMT
Surely Giants are the team that, on paper, you think are well expensive. Reinhardt (!), Piccinich, Boucher, for example. How they've got that team for the same £ as Panthers is a crime... Belfast's looks stronger yes but when you see their level of experience/age compared to Sheffield in particular it makes we wonder. That experience total can be clouded though by just a couple of ageing players who’ve been around the block for years in some top leagues but are now past it or just here for a holiday. |
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Jan 5, 2022 18:28:57 GMT
I dont track it but somebody mentioned to me the other day that Brlfast have something like 7 Coukd Panthers have fluffed it big time here? Welsh is on a Uni deal, but are any others? 1 vs 7 could explain a big discrepancy. If Belfast pay basically subsistence wages to those 7, that frees up plenty of wedge for the other 7 imports, plus expensive Brits like Conway. Whatever Belfast have done is exactly what Panthers “could” have done too so that’s their own dumb fault if they weren’t smart enough. |
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Jord v4
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Post by Jord v4 on Jan 5, 2022 18:36:18 GMT
Gary had no involvement in the on ice recruitment at all. Absolutely zero. His GM role was from a sponsorship/endorsements side of things. Corey did nearly all his own recruitment & left the paperwork to the office girls. Chernomaz did his own recruitment then had a bottle of whisky to celebrate. Gui does the recruitment now & sacks the HC after he spends it incorrectly. Regarding the budget I don't think we've spent as much, no. I know for a fact we didn't in the recent past & whilst I have less knowledge there now all the signs point to the same situ, albeit with a different dynamic. The wage cap was brought in to reign in two teams' spending as the feeling was it was potentially creating too large a gap under what are testing financial times. Teams don't have to spend that full amount, their discretion. So who within the club would be looking to make the likes of uni-deals, housing, cars, work for partner, available to the players? Is it someone within the office and Doucet explains what might available when’s he trying to recruit players? I just can’t fathom how we can be so far behind the other teams in terms of quality if we’re spending the same on wages as the others. There’s no reason for Doucet to say it if it’s not the case either. There must be benefits that other teams are offering that we aren’t surely? Most of that would sit with Gui and he'll have Sarah and her team doing the paperwork side. Gui is responsible for everything player signing related. Nichola & Dan have picked up most of Gary's duties from their own sides which are the sponsorship & media respectively. Gary's involvement with the on ice side was almost non existent, has been that way for many years. We aren't spending the same on wages, that's the point. There is a wages ceiling cap which means teams cannot spend above it. You are allowed to spend below it though. Gui may say otherwise publicly to defend/weaken his position but history, CV's and visual quality tells me there's no way Panthers are spending that full cap.... & IF they are then Gui has done a pretty terrible job. Now Gary is sadly no longer with us there is only one person remaining at the very very top. He has the ultimate say on all monetary issues, he always has had. Most posters issues here with Gary were sponsorship/communication related. Again as I've said before many times the job Corey Nielson did looks better & better every day. |
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