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Post by texpef on Jan 4, 2008 12:48:29 GMT
As much as i sympathise in this Gazza (and i do, noone wants to see any club go through financial difficulties least of all established clubs like the devils) it does strike me that as a fan of a club that pays through the nose for its icetime which seems to be able to change the dates of the games on a whim the devils seem to want their cake and eat it.
Now i know you keep mentioning this "agreement" where basically you train and skate FOR FREE and no doubt collect all the gate money and any other money generating schemes on matchnight but in a commercial world how can that be viable? Even the small matter of £1500 per week for "rent" doesnt sound too bad to me how many tickets does that actually translate too? at £15 per ticket (roughly) thats 100 tickets isnt it? Given that your own figures quote 1000 average gate (which to me seems low for the devils who used to get 2-2500 in the old place) then anything over this ie the remaining 900 ticket sales all go on wages/profit then?
Perhaps i am oversimpifying things here Gazza and i openly admit that i do not know the details of this alleged difficulty but in all businesses losing sponsors etc happen and you dont bank on what you dont have (sponsors have come and gone for the panthers too), essentially if the devils are too expensive it isnt rocket science to suggest that spending less will bring them back in the black, i guess it all depends how this reduction is achieved. People have been quick to say if they released a top line centre/forward/defenceman then it will make them less competitive but noone seemed to care too much when it has happened to Hull or Edinburgh or even earlier in the season to Basinstoke did they?....
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Post by gazzathedevil on Jan 4, 2008 12:54:28 GMT
As much as i sympathise in this Gazza (and i do, noone wants to see any club go through financial difficulties least of all established clubs like the devils) it does strike me that as a fan of a club that pays through the nose for its icetime which seems to be able to change the dates of the games on a whim the devils seem to want their cake and eat it. Now i know you keep mentioning this "agreement" where basically you train and skate FOR FREE and no doubt collect all the gate money and any other money generating schemes on matchnight but in a commercial world how can that be viable? Even the small matter of £1500 per week for "rent" doesnt sound too bad to me how many tickets does that actually translate too? at £15 per ticket (roughyly) thats 100 tickets isnt it? Given that your own figures quote 1000 average gate (which to me seems low for the devils who used to get 2-2500 in the old place) then anything over this ie the remaining 900 ticket sales all go on wages/profit then? Perhaps i am oversimpifying things here Gazza and i openly admit that i do not know the details of this alleged difficulty but in all businesses losing sponsors etc happen and you dont bank on what you dont have (sponsors have come and gone for the panthers too), eseentially if the devils are too expensive it isnt rocket science to suggest that spending less will bring them back in the black, i guess it all depends how this reduction is achieved. People have been quick to say if they released a top line centre/forward/defenceman then it will make them less competitive but noone seemed to care too much when it has happened to Hull or Edinburgh or even earlier in the season to Basinstoke did they?.... Alot of things are explained by those with a better understanding than myself on the Elitel eague forum kindly posted by barnsleyfan. Now firstly if we had to cut players to carry on then so be it i would be all for it! This having the cake and eating it thing though i dont buy tex, you really have to fathom how much work people put in to get us to the tent. Then the tent was heavily delayed and thtsa going to have far reaching repurcussions for any business is it not? Manchester are helped with this by part owning their rink and thus gain a bit more money than we do. We are in effect a rebuilding business. we took half a season of loss last season and worked hard in the summer to get a decent team this season. Now considering we have a legal agreement with Planet ice for Free ice time and given all our plight up until now is it really that unreasonable to ask that our agreement is enforced at least until we are bakc up and running in a stable fashion? the biggest kick in the teeth in all of this is that that rink was built for us (all ice skating users) not for planet ice to make a profit from! And at the moment thats all the Tent is being used for. And its just plain wrong! Also why do the Devils pay more Ice rental agreement than the other useres of the ice rink? considering we bring in more hot dog buyers and drinkers?
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Post by officerdibbel on Jan 4, 2008 13:26:32 GMT
take icehockey out of the equation for planet ice and they wont last long in cardiff!
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Milkman™
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Post by Milkman™ on Jan 4, 2008 14:07:21 GMT
I have read the threads on the elite site and still cannot understand what the problem is.
Are the Devils looking for charity, it seems to me that they cannot seem to sustain a future in the elite league running at their present budgets, cancelled sponsors, injured players, low crowds, energy price rises surely all these problems must be looked at from the outset, do not all teams have these problems.
It also seems, again from what I have read that people seem to think that the owners of the clubs run the clubs for the charity of the fans, people really need to wake up and realise that folks are getting rich on the back the fans, they DO NOT operate at a loss, why do it?, the average working mans wage in this country is pushing 30k, yet the Cardiff fans seem to think that the operating profit of the Devils is less than this figure, so who in their right mind would do it, with no sick pay, no pension, no holidays.
As tex has rightly posted and as I did yesterday, £1500 a week rent from ticket sales of £10,000 - wage cap of £4,000 still is 4.5k profit per week and thats only what punters are paying on the door, dont forget sponsorship money etc.
Its the old post office scenario, should I pay a premium so 100 or so old ladies can get their pensions a mile closer?
Hockey is business simple as, Devils business plan is pants or the owners are naive, or both
Is it not as simple as that, Ayr, Storm, Bees, Knights, Jesters, Riverkings all made the same basic mistake, bring in more than you spend and you will survive.
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Post by mattscold on Jan 4, 2008 14:23:55 GMT
What i don't understand is this, if their is a contract breach by the council/pi why is it not being contested by the Devils?
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Post by gazzathedevil on Jan 4, 2008 16:07:48 GMT
What i don't understand is this, if their is a contract breach by the council/pi why is it not being contested by the Devils? The Devils sent the invoices to the council to show that planet ice were in breach of the contract we had with planet ice. The council told Planet ice to charge us 'maintenance costs' instead of 'ice time' again milkman its quite simple, the Devils had a deal for sponsership, if we had been given it we would have been fine. It didnt come through. Is it really that difficult to understand and not keep throwing the living beyond your means stuff?
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Post by mattscold on Jan 4, 2008 16:11:37 GMT
What i don't understand is this, if their is a contract breach by the council/pi why is it not being contested by the Devils? The Devils sent the invoices to the council to show that planet ice were in breach of the contract we had with planet ice. The council told Planet ice to charge us 'maintenance costs' instead of 'ice time' again milkman its quite simple, the Devils had a deal for sponsership, if we had been given it we would have been fine. It didnt come through. Is it really that difficult to understand and not keep throwing the living beyond your means stuff? Fair enough so they found a loop hole by the looks of it!
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Milkman™
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Post by Milkman™ on Jan 4, 2008 16:18:49 GMT
again milkman its quite simple, the Devils had a deal for sponsership, if we had been given it we would have been fine. It didnt come through. Is it really that difficult to understand and not keep throwing the living beyond your means stuff? So sue the sponsors As you have said the deal is a measly 20k 20k is not a lot of money as I stated earlier, over a season its £750 a week, on your 1250 punters that's under a pound a man per week. You mentioned hardcore, well for the price of an extra 1/3rd of a pint I know where my 'hardcore' pound would go. Again, I will state the obvious, and again you will dismiss it, spend less. Or cut players, basingstoke had to.
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Post by gazzathedevil on Jan 4, 2008 16:22:17 GMT
again milkman its quite simple, the Devils had a deal for sponsership, if we had been given it we would have been fine. It didnt come through. Is it really that difficult to understand and not keep throwing the living beyond your means stuff? So sue the sponsors As you have said the deal is a measly 20k 20k is not a lot of money as I stated earlier, over a season its £750 a week, on your 1250 punters that's under a pound a man per week. You mentioned hardcore, well for the price of an extra 1/3rd of a pint I know where my 'hardcore' pound would go. Again, I will state the obvious, and again you will dismiss it, spend less. Or cut players, basingstoke had to. We were spending what we had. If things stay the same then obviously we will spend less im not dismissing it your just acting like we have been doing this blindly and ignorantly which is just not the case. And again i have said that should we have to we will cut players. What will most likely happen is that Prpich will go home once his knee injury is sorted and we will retain lee cowmeadow who doesnt get paid as he has his own business in cardiff. Also the reason we are losing 1,500 a week is because we are paying that to planet ice when we shouldnt have to. But hey i bet planet ice are glad they put all that effort in over the years to get their rink built. Oh right i rememebr now they didnt.......
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Post by jmc on Jan 4, 2008 16:45:36 GMT
again milkman its quite simple, the Devils had a deal for sponsership, if we had been given it we would have been fine. It didnt come through. Is it really that difficult to understand and not keep throwing the living beyond your means stuff? So sue the sponsors As you have said the deal is a measly 20k 20k is not a lot of money as I stated earlier, over a season its £750 a week, on your 1250 punters that's under a pound a man per week. You mentioned hardcore, well for the price of an extra 1/3rd of a pint I know where my 'hardcore' pound would go. Again, I will state the obvious, and again you will dismiss it, spend less. Or cut players, basingstoke had to. Very true, its living within your needs. I find it hard how Cardiff always end up with the same issues, is somebody not adding up properly?
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Post by gazzathedevil on Jan 4, 2008 18:13:40 GMT
So sue the sponsors As you have said the deal is a measly 20k 20k is not a lot of money as I stated earlier, over a season its £750 a week, on your 1250 punters that's under a pound a man per week. You mentioned hardcore, well for the price of an extra 1/3rd of a pint I know where my 'hardcore' pound would go. Again, I will state the obvious, and again you will dismiss it, spend less. Or cut players, basingstoke had to. Very true, its living within your needs. I find it hard how Cardiff always end up with the same issues, is somebody not adding up properly? Huh? First time was the ISL when everything went belly up with pretty much everyone other than yourselvs. Second time we hit a bit of money trouble because we didnt have any ice until december This season we lost money we were promised but never materialised. The sums were there based on a system followed by every hockey club in the land. If the money turns up tomorrow we will be fine.
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Milkman™
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Post by Milkman™ on Jan 4, 2008 19:33:59 GMT
First time was the ISL when everything went belly up with pretty much everyone other than yourselvs. Second time we hit a bit of money trouble because we didnt have any ice until december This season we lost money we were promised but never materialised. The sums were there based on a system followed by every hockey club in the land. If the money turns up tomorrow we will be fine. Sorry to labour on this, but 3 times in the 10 ten years I have been following hockey is near enough once every other season. I like Cardiff, when I started going the best team we played were the Devils, the first players I met and had a drink with where Poper and Mike the Mac, also got on really well with Tood Gillingham and one of my fave hockey guys was Clayton Norris, they all spoke so highly of the Cardiff fans and the country. Shame you have been stiffed by consecutive owners and management.
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Post by gazzathedevil on Jan 4, 2008 19:40:43 GMT
First time was the ISL when everything went belly up with pretty much everyone other than yourselvs. Second time we hit a bit of money trouble because we didnt have any ice until december This season we lost money we were promised but never materialised. The sums were there based on a system followed by every hockey club in the land. If the money turns up tomorrow we will be fine. Sorry to labour on this, but 3 times in the 10 ten years I have been following hockey is near enough once every other season. I like Cardiff, when I started going the best team we played were the Devils, the first players I met and had a drink with where Poper and Mike the Mac, also got on really well with Tood Gillingham and one of my fave hockey guys was Clayton Norris, they all spoke so highly of the Cardiff fans and the country. Shame you have been stiffed by consecutive owners and management. True milkman but again lets not easily stick owners and management here, the fasn stiffed themselves imo by sitting outside the rink that first BNL seasons. And also the council and PI and pretty much everyone who wants what they think is still a lucrative piece of the pie here in Cardiff. we have been victims of our own success on more than one occiaision. All the fans want to do is give G a budget whatever that may be and watch ice hockey week in and week out. It could be easily done as well i truly believe that. If only we had the off ice version of Big mac ;D
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Post by jmc on Jan 5, 2008 17:00:20 GMT
Very true, its living within your needs. I find it hard how Cardiff always end up with the same issues, is somebody not adding up properly? Huh? First time was the ISL when everything went belly up with pretty much everyone other than yourselvs. Second time we hit a bit of money trouble because we didnt have any ice until december This season we lost money we were promised but never materialised. The sums were there based on a system followed by every hockey club in the land. If the money turns up tomorrow we will be fine. Very true the ISL did flip flop. But Cardiff have a genuine case for breach of contract. Also Cardiff should have a plan B in case anything goes wrong. Which they don't seem to have, from how I read it it's Sponsers aren't paying out we need money we don't have a plan b erm....fans dip into your bottemless pockets again and bail us out.
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Post by gazzathedevil on Jan 5, 2008 17:12:28 GMT
Huh? First time was the ISL when everything went belly up with pretty much everyone other than yourselvs. Second time we hit a bit of money trouble because we didnt have any ice until december This season we lost money we were promised but never materialised. The sums were there based on a system followed by every hockey club in the land. If the money turns up tomorrow we will be fine. Very true the ISL did flip flop. But Cardiff have a genuine case for breach of contract. Also Cardiff should have a plan B in case anything goes wrong. Which they don't seem to have, from how I read it it's Sponsers aren't paying out we need money we don't have a plan b erm....fans dip into your bottemless pockets again and bail us out. But pretty much any of the rink teams would be in the same situation should sponsers not come up with the cash. What plan b could you possibly have?
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Post by jmc on Jan 6, 2008 9:12:46 GMT
Plan B how about keeping some money aside? Incase things go belly up, a basic back up plan.
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oldman
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Post by oldman on Jan 6, 2008 9:29:38 GMT
gazza plan B could have been settle for a mid table side with more brits rather a great deal of expensive imports this initially i agree could lead to a two tier league with the arena boys at the top ( with the exception of cov) but i feel that you need to cut your cloth accordingly and maybe a couple of years of consolidation and spending less would give you a firmer framework in the future!
Rather than this yo-yo system that you have in place at the moment of great teams to watch one minute and going bust nearly every season as well! Either that or a plan C get somebody like a abramovich type person on board who can safely bankroll you for a few seasons!
I always enjoy the games against the devils and long may it continue!
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Post by gazzathedevil on Jan 6, 2008 12:58:59 GMT
gazza plan B could have been settle for a mid table side with more brits rather a great deal of expensive imports this initially i agree could lead to a two tier league with the arena boys at the top ( with the exception of cov) but i feel that you need to cut your cloth accordingly and maybe a couple of years of consolidation and spending less would give you a firmer framework in the future! Rather than this yo-yo system that you have in place at the moment of great teams to watch one minute and going bust nearly every season as well! Either that or a plan C get somebody like a abramovich type person on board who can safely bankroll you for a few seasons! I always enjoy the games against the devils and long may it continue! this is the only time we have been in money trouble due to i guess spending more than you have but again i'll try to explain this. Every ice hockey team has a budget they can afford, Cardiff had one We could afford. This was based on the way the majority of hockey clubs work. The maths work out that we need 18K to finish the season but we are owed in sponsership 25k thus we would have had that bit of extra cash. We cant do anything if that money doesnt come in, and its the same for many a club. It's a totally different situation to say if we had been given the 30K and spent 50K then asked for help isnt it?
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oldman
Simon Hunt
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Post by oldman on Jan 6, 2008 13:04:06 GMT
i can see what you mean gazza but if you spent money you havnt received, then i would ask why the guys running your franchise didnt nail these sponsers for the money first, or did the sponsers go bust or something!
one thing for sure you are a good set of fans and i dont want to lose you lot but every year you seem to be in this strife at least twice a season and it cannot be good for the health of your franchise or yourselves!
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Post by gazzathedevil on Jan 6, 2008 13:10:22 GMT
i can see what you mean gazza but if you spent money you havnt received, then i would ask why the guys running your franchise didnt nail these sponsers for the money first, or did the sponsers go bust or something! one thing for sure you are a good set of fans and i dont want to lose you lot but every year you seem to be in this strife at least twice a season and it cannot be good for the health of your franchise or yourselves! If your on THF oldman go and read some interesting bits from people who are involved with elite league clubs. You have to spend before you get as you have so many outgoings at the beginning of the season and wages. Most sponsership deals are in installments so you have to bank on those coming in, a bit of a kamikazee way of doign things i agree but thats how a lot of teams operate. I would be a lot more angry if we had spent 50k but only brought in 25 we didnt and we did things as they are usually done. I have no idea why the sponser didnt stump up with the cash the mian thing is that they didnt and we have to work around it. Oh and getting PI out would help as well
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Post by gazzathedevil on Jan 7, 2008 13:18:15 GMT
The Echo has reported today that the owners are meeting with the team with the possibility of renegotiating thier contracts.
Interesting times ahead.
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MP
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Post by MP on Jan 8, 2008 0:29:04 GMT
Plan B how about keeping some money aside? Incase things go belly up, a basic back up plan. Easier said than done. British ice hockey runs on a shoestring at the best of times. The EIHL has set it's budgets so that the rink and arena teams can have some sort of parity but its a balancing act. For Cardiff to compete they have to spend their budget. By the sound of it, they've done just that only to be let down by non-payment of monies promised to them. If Cardiff have to significantly underspend then they face an unpleasant choice regarding the future - go bust, struggle along just making up the numbers in the EIHL, or drop down to a lower level. I don't think any of those will be attractive to the club or their supporters.
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Post by gazzathedevil on Jan 8, 2008 18:06:48 GMT
For Cardiff to compete they have to spend their budget. By the sound of it, they've done just that only to be let down by non-payment of monies promised to them. If Cardiff have to significantly underspend then they face an unpleasant choice regarding the future - go bust, struggle along just making up the numbers in the EIHL, or drop down to a lower level. I don't think any of those will be attractive to the club or their supporters. Just been posted on the Elite league forum that according to tonights Echo the devils have agreed to take a pay cut! This in addition to new sponsering initiatives! What a team ;D
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Higgy
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Post by Higgy on Jan 10, 2008 10:55:20 GMT
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Post by grumpyminer on Jan 10, 2008 16:44:31 GMT
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