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Post by cooperphil156 on Jan 4, 2022 12:46:49 GMT
The indications are that even if there was an offer, the Blacks and the Caribbean contingent wouldn't sell. How realistic is it that a buyer would take the Panthers on and what sort of an economic profile would he need to have. As I see it, its the franchise which would have to be bought, as the rink is rented and the roster is bought from profits. Someone I think mentioned in the past that Moseys father had tried, or am I imagining that.
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Post by kievthegreat on Jan 4, 2022 13:10:12 GMT
I think you'd require seveal million. Despite the club having zero tangible assets (the only major asset on the books is the value as a franchise which is arbitrary as far as I can see), the club still probably has a turnover in excess of £2m. In good times maybe £3m. There's also the big factor, Black doesn't appear to be looking to sell. If he doesn't actively want to sell, any attempt to buy the club would require additional funds. Especially if the business makes him money, as he'd want a multiple of that profit. I don't think there is any realistic prospect of Panthers being bought unless the crowds get so low as to cause distress to the business and it's fundamentals.
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Post by kievthegreat on Jan 4, 2022 13:19:18 GMT
My turnover estimate logic:
35 home games (27 league, 4 cup group, 4 extra (QFs, etc... which is probably an underestimate, but about what is guaranteed) I then worked out gate receipts based on: - Average price ranging from £10 to £16 - Average sales ranging from 3000-5000
That gives a basement figure of £1.05m (£10×35×3000) and a top level of £2.8m (£16×35×5000). The middle figure in that calculation would be £1.82m (£13×35×4000).
For reference, the cheapest ticket, with all arena fees removed is for a child's ticket in Bronze and is £10. So I feel this is a very low estimate, even accounting for ST discounts, freebies, etc...
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Jan 4, 2022 13:43:31 GMT
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Post by wgray on Jan 4, 2022 13:43:31 GMT
We now have a weekly player wage bill capped at £12k, the players are here for roughly 35 weeks so over the season we will pay £420k total in player wages.
Thinking about the costs of running a club there’s Housing players, Arena rent, Off-ice staff wages, Equipment, Travel costs, Feeding players. What others are there to take into account?
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Post by kievthegreat on Jan 4, 2022 14:29:28 GMT
We now have a weekly player wage bill capped at £12k, the players are here for roughly 35 weeks so over the season we will pay £420k total in player wages. Thinking about the costs of running a club there’s Housing players, Arena rent, Off-ice staff wages, Equipment, Travel costs, Feeding players. What others are there to take into account? I'd guess you have various Visa fees, registration costs, flying them in (as opposed to travel around the country) associated with import signings. It's difficult to put a cost to a lot of those things though as there just isn't any visibility of them. However, the same is true about things like merchandise, sponsorships, etc... My gut feeling would be it makes money, and even now with diminishing crowds, isn't anywhere near being unsustainable unless it's expected to provide £xxxx amount of profit.
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gordie
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Post by gordie on Jan 4, 2022 14:38:55 GMT
I'm pretty sure that VAT is included on the ticket prices, as sporting clubs are not exempt. It also states in the T&C's "3.1 Goods and services, together with VAT, are invoiced at the price prevailing at time of order"
If so, the T/O will be 20% less.
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Jan 4, 2022 15:13:50 GMT
£1million has always been my estimate of costs to run an arena team,a figure backed up by Tony Smith in an interview not long ago. Gross revenue will be close to £3million a year at Panthers on crowds of recent years in the 5500 region. People get caught up that player housing and cars etc is a lot of money but it isn’t,you can rent an apartment for £600 a month and they put two players in most of them. Plus a hell of a lot of other costs like cars are sponsored or in other words paid for by somebody else. I owned an apartment on Fletcher Gate in the lace market but we didn’t rent it out,we let Panthers have it for FREE for FOUR years ! There’s a lot of money being made at Panthers and even more now up in Sheffield.
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jan 4, 2022 15:30:17 GMT
The Bermuda Triangle wouldn't have taken a nice big chunk of the ownership if the investment didn't make very healthy returns.
I'm sure someone would have to come up with a hefty wedge to get them all to relinquish it. Won't be holding my breath.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 4, 2022 15:48:34 GMT
I would think that any team at the moment would be closer to a sale than at any time before. Covid, falling numbers, lack of sustainable teams. If you are only in it as a business then these are very precarious times and could quite well walk away with nothing. It doesn't matter how big a team is if there are only three or four teams in the league.
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Jan 4, 2022 16:42:19 GMT
I seem to remember at the end of the Bob Phillips era that there was a figure of £250,000 mentioned just for the franchise rights. And that was in very dark times for the Steelers when their was in fighting on various fronts,law suits being threatened, their team was a poor shadow of normal and crowds were miles down in the very low 3000’s.
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Post by bobness on Jan 4, 2022 17:33:29 GMT
£1million has always been my estimate of costs to run an arena team,a figure backed up by Tony Smith in an interview not long ago. Gross revenue will be close to £3million a year at Panthers on crowds of recent years in the 5500 region. People get caught up that player housing and cars etc is a lot of money but it isn’t,you can rent an apartment for £600 a month and they put two players in most of them. Plus a hell of a lot of other costs like cars are sponsored or in other words paid for by somebody else. I owned an apartment on Fletcher Gate in the lace market but we didn’t rent it out,we let Panthers have it for FREE for FOUR years ! There’s a lot of money being made at Panthers and even more now up in Sheffield. Renting the arena 35 or so times a year will cost nearly that on its own, I'd say. Then there's the player wage costs, then ancillaries, the back office staff costs, then equipment, then away travel, then overheads etc. I'd suspect you could easily get to £2m+ in costs. If Uncle Tony can run the Steelers on £1m all in, he's a lucky man.
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langer
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Post by langer on Jan 4, 2022 17:50:23 GMT
Isn't there the obligation by the five English teams to pay back the four million "loaned" to them by Sports England or was it a freebee ?
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iginla
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Jan 4, 2022 18:16:56 GMT
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Post by iginla on Jan 4, 2022 18:16:56 GMT
£1million has always been my estimate of costs to run an arena team,a figure backed up by Tony Smith in an interview not long ago. Gross revenue will be close to £3million a year at Panthers on crowds of recent years in the 5500 region. People get caught up that player housing and cars etc is a lot of money but it isn’t,you can rent an apartment for £600 a month and they put two players in most of them. Plus a hell of a lot of other costs like cars are sponsored or in other words paid for by somebody else. I owned an apartment on Fletcher Gate in the lace market but we didn’t rent it out,we let Panthers have it for FREE for FOUR years ! There’s a lot of money being made at Panthers and even more now up in Sheffield. Renting the arena 35 or so times a year will cost nearly that on its own, I'd say. Then there's the player wage costs, then ancillaries, the back office staff costs, then equipment, then away travel, then overheads etc. I'd suspect you could easily get to £2m+ in costs. If Uncle Tony can run the Steelers on £1m all in, he's a lucky man. You’ve got no chance of it costing £2million a year to run Panthers. Arena rent was not that long ago £14k a game and that plus player/office wages is the only big cost. Even on a 35 game season the total of NIC rent and player wage would only be £900k so what on earth would another £1.1miliion be spent on when loads of the other stuff is sponsored. And if you’re basing it on a 35 game season instead of a league season the gross takings would rise with every extra game too. For a few years now Panthers have averaged 5500 at say a conservative average of £13 a ticket,that’s £2.5million turnover before you even start adding all the other team sponsorship, player spinsorship, 50/50s, programme sales, raffles,shirt auctions,equipment sales and merchandise etc.
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iginla
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Jan 4, 2022 18:17:22 GMT
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Post by iginla on Jan 4, 2022 18:17:22 GMT
Isn't there the obligation by the five English teams to pay back the four million "loaned" to them by Sports England or was it a freebee ? Hopefully yes.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 4, 2022 18:34:08 GMT
Isn't there the obligation by the five English teams to pay back the four million "loaned" to them by Sports England or was it a freebee ? Depends if they go bust
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Post by Bagheera on Jan 4, 2022 18:57:38 GMT
The only way Panthers get sold is if a fan gets lucky and wins big on the euro millions. Then theyd be able to pay over the odds to perhaps prize it away from Black. Perhaps pay him £10m if it's worth £7m.
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Jan 4, 2022 19:13:23 GMT
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Post by wgray on Jan 4, 2022 19:13:23 GMT
The only way Panthers get sold is if a fan gets lucky and wins big on the euro millions. Then theyd be able to pay over the odds to perhaps prize it away from Black. Perhaps pay him £10m if it's worth £7m. Best start buying some euro millions tickets then hadn’t we!
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Post by cooperphil156 on Jan 4, 2022 21:00:58 GMT
Thanks to all for your thoughts.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 4, 2022 22:01:38 GMT
The only way Panthers get sold is if a fan gets lucky and wins big on the euro millions. Then theyd be able to pay over the odds to perhaps prize it away from Black. Perhaps pay him £10m if it's worth £7m. Best start buying some euro millions tickets then hadn’t we! I do the Euro Millions but if I won the Panthers would be the last thing I would buy because I think the best years of the EIHL are past
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Mark
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Post by Mark on Jan 4, 2022 22:28:29 GMT
It does feel now that the EIHL's best days are behind them. Losing teams, money issues, a stale product, a bloated cup competition and a poor playoffs format. Typical British ice hockey. Seems history repeats itself again and again and people either don't learn from their mistakes or hockey in this country is never really viable.
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Deleted
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Jan 4, 2022 22:45:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2022 22:45:33 GMT
Yup pretty much all spot on.. hockey isn't viable in this country . The eihl is constantly treadin water and the owners are trying to grab as much cash as they can before things go tits up! Hence why they just blunder and plot through this Covid situation instead of just calling a halt to things .. because simply they can't afford to
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Jan 4, 2022 23:22:31 GMT
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Post by wgray on Jan 4, 2022 23:22:31 GMT
If it’s best day are behind it and it’s no longer viable then why is Neil Balck and every other owner not looking to sell their club?
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 4, 2022 23:33:06 GMT
If it’s best day are behind it and it’s no longer viable then why is Neil Balck and every other owner not looking to sell their club? Who would buy them?
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Mark
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Post by Mark on Jan 5, 2022 0:21:51 GMT
If it’s best day are behind it and it’s no longer viable then why is Neil Balck and every other owner not looking to sell their club? How many times has hockey been reborn in this country? It's like Groundhog Day with a different name attached. Either it will always be a hand to mouth existence, teetering on the edge, or the myriad owners are not capable of developing a workable framework. One of the biggest issues is the disparity between teams, the haves and have nots. As we are finding out watching a losing team isn't a bag of fun. Essentially the rink teams are always behind the eight ball, financially unable to compete. Their crowd numbers drop, reducing their spending power further and in many cases they then fold or drop down to the minor leagues. Newcastle Vipers, Milton Keynes Lightning, Hull Stingrays, Manchester Phoenix, London Racers and Edinburgh Capitals all gone from the EIHL. They didn't find it viable and as far as I can see the owners haven't come up with any plan to try and level the playing field.
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Post by wgray on Jan 5, 2022 1:20:44 GMT
If it’s best day are behind it and it’s no longer viable then why is Neil Balck and every other owner not looking to sell their club? Who would buy them? The only options are either a business man with a lot of money who will want to make money out of the club, like Black is doing now. A person or group of people like in Cardiff, that love the game. Those are the only options. But you can’t buy something that isn’t for sale.
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