Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
Posts: 10,995
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 15, 2018 12:05:54 GMT
I cannot be swept up with the blind optimism I am seeing on facebook and twitter. As opposed to the more usual blind pessimism? The spinal-reflex moaning that is all too prevalent amongst a vocal few? All of these wild predictions about goalscoring... it's complete fantasy. Stats from previous seasons are - at best - only a slight indication of what a player may do here... at worst, they bear no relevance whatsoever. The prime example in Panthers history for that is John Craighead. 35 goals in 4 DEL league campaigns... hardly much of an impressive scorer, right? That's what everyone said when he was announced. 39 goals he scored that year for us. Granted, he acted like a total tit a lot of the time and quite frankly became a liability... but absolutely nobody (apart from the coach?) saw that level of scoring coming. We've all seen players who have massively underperformed compared to expectations... and we've seen players who have come in and performed way above what was expected. We've also seen players who work really well with some line-mates, and really badly with others - P.C. Drouin is the best example for that one. Didn't do diddley-squat partnered with Hadden & Leach... but with Tait and Struch, it was a completely different story. Plus we have absolutely no idea what to expect from the coaching of Rich Chernomaz. There are just too many variables to make any kind of real prediction whatsoever. So... why not just wait and see?
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,422
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Post by iginla on Jul 15, 2018 12:30:51 GMT
Give over... They both came from the same ECHL team,neither is a superstar. How do you know ones a first liner and the other is a 3rd liner. stats, the same ones you use to decide whether a player is good or not before you’ve actually seen them play. Pitts career stats don’t suggest to me that he’s an automatic 1st liner.
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Post by pantherlee on Jul 15, 2018 12:47:25 GMT
I don't we're as bad as everyone is alluding to on the scoring scoring. Don't get wrong i don't we've got the goals in us Cardiff have but then i'd expect us to concede fewer given the type of squad and D men we have.
Guptill is coming off a near PPG season int he coast so if he carries on that kind of form he could get plenty. Kovacs wasn't far off a PPG in the coast also two seasons ago and had decent numbers in the Czech league which is way higher than EIHL level. Pither i'd expect to be near the top of the scoring charts Rheault could also be there if he brings his best like he did in NLB with Visp. Just hope he improves after a poor year with Klagenfurter Henderson/Biggs should bring what you'd expect from the 3rd line Doty should also produce a fair bit more from the 4th line too if thats where we're expecting him to play.
We may not have the amount of top end scoring yet (hopefully that will change with the last forward signing) but we seem to have more depth of scoring than last year considering the paltry amount that Lindhagen and Bussieres gave us last season
Sorry in advance for the show of optimism. Fully expecting to shot down now by the "experts"
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Post by dill1015 on Jul 15, 2018 13:38:04 GMT
Two players at Kalamazoo last year,one scored 18 + 21 and the other 31 + 26. One was their top scorer and the other was 9th. Guess which one Panthers got and which one went to Steelers. Yep we got Tyler Biggs and they got Josh Pitt. 🙄 Steelers beat us to Pitt I understand, which makes me wonder why our coach didn't look elsewhere for a Pitt type of player, as if he lost Pitt, why then settle for Biggs? I hope to be proved wrong, but I cannot be swept up with the blind optimism I am seeing on facebook and twitter. I have gone from being excited to be being apprehensive as there is not enough goals in this team to compete for the title. If Cardiff continue to recruit as they have I think they will be quite ahead of us come the start of the proper season. Well that depends completely on what we have left to sign. Are we still trying to fill that slot that we had open for Pitt? I certainly hope we are. I think we still need a 30 goal man. Another example is Mcgrath, apparently we also were interested in him. However it seems to me we went with Pither instead. If Briggs has been signed as a top line player its worrying. However this has a third line feel to it. Our last 2 slots need to be a a left shot offensive dman good for 10 goals. And a top line winger good for 30 goals.
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Post by wgray on Jul 15, 2018 14:28:43 GMT
There is cause for optimism, we’ve got a new coach who looks to be bringing a different approach, so far we’ve got a big team that is also fairly young. Just because Rich is approaching it differently doesn’t mean we should be automatically concerned, instead we should be excited to see something new. I think we’ve got some good combinations on the forward lines so far.
Lacho - Doty - Betteridge will provide energy and hopefully they can combine for some goals.
Farmer - Henderson - Biggs will provide size, speed and intimidation. They’ll drive the net hard, lay the body and provide secondary scoring.
Guptill - Perlini - Kovacs can be relied on for goals, we know the ability of Perlini, from highlights and stats Kovacs appears to be a decent playmaker and Guptill will provide goals and an element of physicality.
....... - Pither - Rheault, with the right player I expect this line to challenge Cardiff’s first line. Pither is one of the best forwards in the league imo, Rich will know the ability of Rheault which gives me confidence that he will come good, I expect the last forward to be just as capable as these two.
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Post by mansfieldpanther91 on Jul 15, 2018 14:54:11 GMT
I cannot be swept up with the blind optimism I am seeing on facebook and twitter. As opposed to the more usual blind pessimism? The spinal-reflex moaning that is all too prevalent amongst a vocal few? All of these wild predictions about goalscoring... it's complete fantasy. Stats from previous seasons are - at best - only a slight indication of what a player may do here... at worst, they bear no relevance whatsoever. The prime example in Panthers history for that is John Craighead. 35 goals in 4 DEL league campaigns... hardly much of an impressive scorer, right? That's what everyone said when he was announced. 39 goals he scored that year for us. Granted, he acted like a total tit a lot of the time and quite frankly became a liability... but absolutely nobody (apart from the coach?) saw that level of scoring coming. We've all seen players who have massively underperformed compared to expectations... and we've seen players who have come in and performed way above what was expected. We've also seen players who work really well with some line-mates, and really badly with others - P.C. Drouin is the best example for that one. Didn't do diddley-squat partnered with Hadden & Leach... but with Tait and Struch, it was a completely different story. Plus we have absolutely no idea what to expect from the coaching of Rich Chernomaz. There are just too many variables to make any kind of real prediction whatsoever. So... why not just wait and see? So you really think that the players we have signed would be in Cardiffs top 6? Look at hadden who they've just signed .proven pointscorer, if much rather us be signing players with proven track records rather than players who we HOPE might turn into that. I think it's going to be an entertaining team with the size we have , probably plenty of fights at but I just can't see us being in the running for the league again with a team made up of mostly powerforwards.
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Post by dill1015 on Jul 15, 2018 16:01:14 GMT
As opposed to the more usual blind pessimism? The spinal-reflex moaning that is all too prevalent amongst a vocal few? All of these wild predictions about goalscoring... it's complete fantasy. Stats from previous seasons are - at best - only a slight indication of what a player may do here... at worst, they bear no relevance whatsoever. The prime example in Panthers history for that is John Craighead. 35 goals in 4 DEL league campaigns... hardly much of an impressive scorer, right? That's what everyone said when he was announced. 39 goals he scored that year for us. Granted, he acted like a total tit a lot of the time and quite frankly became a liability... but absolutely nobody (apart from the coach?) saw that level of scoring coming. We've all seen players who have massively underperformed compared to expectations... and we've seen players who have come in and performed way above what was expected. We've also seen players who work really well with some line-mates, and really badly with others - P.C. Drouin is the best example for that one. Didn't do diddley-squat partnered with Hadden & Leach... but with Tait and Struch, it was a completely different story. Plus we have absolutely no idea what to expect from the coaching of Rich Chernomaz. There are just too many variables to make any kind of real prediction whatsoever. So... why not just wait and see? So you really think that the players we have signed would be in Cardiffs top 6? Look at hadden who they've just signed .proven pointscorer, if much rather us be signing players with proven track records rather than players who we HOPE might turn into that. I think it's going to be an entertaining team with the size we have , probably plenty of fights at but I just can't see us being in the running for the league again with a team made up of mostly powerforwards. In short... yes. Only 2 of Cardiffs forwards out scored Perlini last season, and Pither had one of the highest ppg in the league. Rheault should be a top player if he performs. And Guptil and Kovacs should be scoring similar to or better than Morrissette and Asselin who are 5th and 6th scoring forwards for devils last season. Devils have propably upgraded on Asselin with Hedden. But all in all we're not a millions miles away like some people say. Our final forward is key though, needs to be good points scorer.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,422
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Post by iginla on Jul 15, 2018 16:10:48 GMT
Wonder when the last time was that Panthers had the leagues top points or goal scorer ?
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Post by pantherlee on Jul 15, 2018 16:13:57 GMT
Wonder when the last time was that Panthers had the leagues top points or goal scorer ? David Ling
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Post by ted logan on Jul 15, 2018 16:16:16 GMT
Wonder when the last time was that Panthers had the leagues top points or goal scorer ? David Ling? Top points scorer
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Post by Rob Scott on Jul 15, 2018 16:17:46 GMT
Wonder when the last time was that Panthers had the leagues top points or goal scorer ? David Ling? Top points scorer How did we get on that year?
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Post by kievthegreat on Jul 15, 2018 16:32:17 GMT
David Ling? Top points scorer How did we get on that year? Won the league, but that's an exception rather than the rule. Only twice in the last 9 seasons has the top point scorer been on the team that wins the league. The last was Matthieu Roy in 14/15. Since then a league winner hasn't had anyone in the top 3 for points.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,422
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Post by iginla on Jul 15, 2018 16:39:33 GMT
How did we get on that year? Won the league, but that's an exception rather than the rule. Only twice in the last 9 seasons has the top point scorer been on the team that wins the league. The last was Matthieu Roy in 14/15. Since then a league winner hasn't had anyone in the top 3 for points. Because of conference imbalances I’d hazard a guess. When was the last time out of the “big four” teams players that Panthers had the top scorer ? Since Ling we’ve struggled to get many players even in the top 20. Wonder why that is ?
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Post by ted logan on Jul 15, 2018 16:42:23 GMT
David Ling? Top points scorer How did we get on that year? Awful mate.
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Post by kievthegreat on Jul 15, 2018 16:51:40 GMT
Won the league, but that's an exception rather than the rule. Only twice in the last 9 seasons has the top point scorer been on the team that wins the league. The last was Matthieu Roy in 14/15. Since then a league winner hasn't had anyone in the top 3 for points. Because of conference imbalances I’d hazard a guess. When was the last time out of the “big four” teams players that Panthers had the top scorer ? Since Ling we’ve struggled to get many players even in the top 20. Wonder why that is ? Total tally is only 6 in all 15 seasons of the EIHL, so it was 4 out of 10 pre-conferences and 2 out of 5 post conferences. As for players in the top 20 there are only 3 since Ling, Juraj Kolnik in 15-16 (7th), Chris Lawrence in 14/15 (18th) and David Clarke in 13/14 (20th). Notably mention to Ling in 15-16 who was just 8 points of being in the top 2 despite playing 15-20 games less than everyone else.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,422
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Post by iginla on Jul 15, 2018 17:03:15 GMT
Because of conference imbalances I’d hazard a guess. When was the last time out of the “big four” teams players that Panthers had the top scorer ? Since Ling we’ve struggled to get many players even in the top 20. Wonder why that is ? Total tally is only 6 in all 15 seasons of the EIHL, so it was 4 out of 10 pre-conferences and 2 out of 5 post conferences. As for players in the top 20 there are only 3 since Ling, Juraj Kolnik in 15-16 (7th), Chris Lawrence in 14/15 (18th) and David Clarke in 13/14 (20th). Notably mention to Ling in 15-16 who was just 8 points of being in the top 2 despite playing 15-20 games less than everyone else. So in the last 5 seasons of top 20 scorers Panthers have only had 3 players who made the cut ? That’s 100 player positions and Panthers have only had 3 slots. Jesus,I knew it would be bad but not that bad. In fact it’s shockingly bad ! 🙄
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2018 17:11:32 GMT
Total tally is only 6 in all 15 seasons of the EIHL, so it was 4 out of 10 pre-conferences and 2 out of 5 post conferences. As for players in the top 20 there are only 3 since Ling, Juraj Kolnik in 15-16 (7th), Chris Lawrence in 14/15 (18th) and David Clarke in 13/14 (20th). Notably mention to Ling in 15-16 who was just 8 points of being in the top 2 despite playing 15-20 games less than everyone else. So in the last 5 seasons of top 20 scorers Panthers have only had 3 players who made the cut ? That’s 100 player positions and Panthers have only had 3 slots. Jesus,I knew it would be bad but not that bad. In fact it’s shockingly bad ! 🙄 It’s also in the past
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,422
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Post by iginla on Jul 15, 2018 17:37:35 GMT
So in the last 5 seasons of top 20 scorers Panthers have only had 3 players who made the cut ? That’s 100 player positions and Panthers have only had 3 slots. Jesus,I knew it would be bad but not that bad. In fact it’s shockingly bad ! 🙄 It’s also in the past Well yes.....and it was all under Neilson ! We appear to have a decent coach now tho. 👍 🤣
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2018 18:04:22 GMT
Well yes.....and it was all under Neilson ! We appear to have a decent coach now tho. 👍 🤣 The only Panthers league title in the modern era was also under Neilson...
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Shaggy
Forum Moderator
Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
Posts: 10,995
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 15, 2018 18:07:16 GMT
Well yes.....and it was all under Neilson ! True, it was. As was 1 league title (the first in how long?), 4 PO titles, 6 Challenge Cups, 1 Continental Cup and 2 record-breaking trips to the CHL. If we're going to criticise Neilson for his alleged failures, perhaps we should be fair and equally acknowledge his successes. Or doesn't that fit the agenda? Not according to some of the opinions being expressed on here... after all, recruitment is a key part of the job - one for which the aforementioned Corey Neilson has been heavily criticised - so if the opinion is that the recruitment is bad...what does that say about the coach?
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Post by dill1015 on Jul 15, 2018 18:28:50 GMT
Well yes.....and it was all under Neilson ! True, it was. As was 1 league title (the first in how long?), 4 PO titles, 6 Challenge Cups, 1 Continental Cup and 2 record-breaking trips to the CHL. If we're going to criticise Neilson for his alleged failures, perhaps we should be fair and equally acknowledge his successes. Or doesn't that fit the agenda? Not according to some of the opinions being expressed on here... after all, recruitment is a key part of the job - one for which the aforementioned Corey Neilson has been heavily criticised - so if the opinion is that the recruitment is bad...what does that say about the coach? Neilson was a great cup coach, and wasnt as bad tactically as people made out. I also liked how he would work with players to improve thier game and showed faith. His weaknesses were his seeming inability to keep a team engaged over the course of the season and a habit of signing unbalanced teams. Also i think he was slow to pull the trigger when things clearly werent working Hopefull Rich can keep this team focused on the prize. As for unbalanced teams, well we'll see. I feel like we have a few players who are very similar atm.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,422
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Post by iginla on Jul 15, 2018 20:03:38 GMT
Well yes.....and it was all under Neilson ! We appear to have a decent coach now tho. 👍 🤣 The only Panthers league title in the modern era was also under Neilson... Mmmm....from about ten attempts 🤣 Whilst coaching the biggest club in the Uk in basically a league of 4 contending teams. 10% success rate,not that good is it !
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Post by thebestpanthers on Jul 15, 2018 20:45:35 GMT
Won the league, but that's an exception rather than the rule. Only twice in the last 9 seasons has the top point scorer been on the team that wins the league. The last was Matthieu Roy in 14/15. Since then a league winner hasn't had anyone in the top 3 for points. Because of conference imbalances I’d hazard a guess. When was the last time out of the “big four” teams players that Panthers had the top scorer ? Since Ling we’ve struggled to get many players even in the top 20. Wonder why that is ? Could it be due to Corry or GM the GM - I wonder - but one of them has now left - so it may be time to give the whinging a rest and at least wait until the season starts before discounting the club - alternatively there is always other teams to support if you don't like the one we have
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,422
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Post by iginla on Jul 15, 2018 21:43:10 GMT
Because of conference imbalances I’d hazard a guess. When was the last time out of the “big four” teams players that Panthers had the top scorer ? Since Ling we’ve struggled to get many players even in the top 20. Wonder why that is ? Could it be due to Corry or GM the GM - I wonder - but one of them has now left - so it may be time to give the whinging a rest and at least wait until the season starts before discounting the club - alternatively there is always other teams to support if you don't like the one we have Rather than attempting to bash the poster as usual,it might be more valuable if you offered an opinion as to why Panthers rarely get a player in even the top 20 scorers. I asked a perfectly reasonable question earlier in the thread.
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Pies
Forum Moderator
Reluctant Chief of ITK
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Post by Pies on Jul 15, 2018 23:38:36 GMT
Could it be due to Corry or GM the GM - I wonder - but one of them has now left - so it may be time to give the whinging a rest and at least wait until the season starts before discounting the club - alternatively there is always other teams to support if you don't like the one we have Rather than attempting to bash the poster as usual,it might be more valuable if you offered an opinion as to why Panthers rarely get a player in even the top 20 scorers. I asked a perfectly reasonable question earlier in the thread. We had Jade Galbraith who was top scorer for a couple of seasons and barely won anything.
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