Dual Nationals

[simonm]

So the debate to be had.....

Imagine Bret Perlini this time last year. He's sat at home what to do next season play for the umpteenth year in the ECHL, clearly he'll neither be AHL and his dreams of NHL are well and truly gone. He gets a phone call come and play in Britain for Nottingham, he has a chat with his dad and takes a punt on it.

A year later... CHL experience of not just losing, but being competitive and now a gold medal, promotion to the top tier and MVP of the whole tournament.

So dual nationals should we look as a league to attract more using the potential for them to play at the top tier of international competition and potentially dissolution British trained players (like the last time - eh Tony Hand) or should we remain faithful to the players that got us there on the understanding that should we relegated next year we strengthen with 2nd year dual nationals.

I say the second, go with the existing guys. Give the dual nationals that do come over the chance to soak up some British culture and fit in with the existing British players in our league and during training camp and work towards creating a team as opposed to dividing the players along accent lines.

A team is greater than the sum of its individual parts.

Regards

Simon.

[PantherB]

Brett was trained in Guildford so it's not as if he's been in the USA/Canada all his life and came here, played one season and becomes British.

Until the junior systems here are sorted and more rinks remain open, ice time becomes more available, then we don't have much choice but to keep going forth with dual nationals. Plus, nobody plays to lose and our best chance of winning is with dual nationals.

One day in the future I hope we can have a full british born and trained roster but i'm not overly fussed. We're making waves and it'd be a huge backwards step to stop now whilst the wheels are in full motion.

[simonm]

"No one plays to lose"

Yes true, but it's also true that some players play for themselves... That team of players played for each other and breaking up that dynamic with a few 'star' players with the risk of pre-madona's and dressing room friction simply isn't worth the risk and fails to reward the players that got us to the elite pool

[Walitzer]

Apr 29, 2018 11:50:08 GMT simonm said:

So the debate to be had.....

Imagine Bret Perlini this time last year. He's sat at home what to do next season play for the umpteenth year in the ECHL, clearly he'll neither be AHL and his dreams of NHL are well and truly gone. He gets a phone call come and play in Britain for Nottingham, he has a chat with his dad and takes a punt on it.

A year later... CHL experience of not just losing, but being competitive and now a gold medal, promotion to the top tier and MVP of the whole tournament.

So dual nationals should we look as a league to attract more using the potential for them to play at the top tier of international competition and potentially dissolution British trained players (like the last time - eh Tony Hand) or should we remain faithful to the players that got us there on the understanding that should we relegated next year we strengthen with 2nd year dual nationals.

I say the second, go with the existing guys. Give the dual nationals that do come over the chance to soak up some British culture and fit in with the existing British players in our league and during training camp and work towards creating a team as opposed to dividing the players along accent lines.

A team is greater than the sum of its individual parts.

Regards

Simon.

Can we stop this endless debate? The IIHF set the rules, it is the job of the GB coaches to pick the strongest possible side, to do anything otherwise is shooting yourself in the foot. And for what? Some nationalistic sense of pride that only "real" Brits were competing? Brexit for British Ice Hockey? Idiocy.

If you don't like the rules, complain to the IIHF, start a petition. Don't voluntarily limit team GB.

[simonm]

Also your argument about British players doesn't hold water. Take a look at Tony Hands British stats. He was trained solely in the UK, with limited icetime and if he'd not stuck to his principles with regards increased aged dual national involvement in the British team he'd be head and shoulders above anyone on goals as well as points.

If British hockey wish to attract better British youngsters away from more obvious sports then we have to show that there's reward and setting a bad example now will attract no one.

I certainly wouldn't advise any child of mine to spend years and years of effort and your front teeth only to have your heart broken when it comes to playing for GB.

[simonm]

Then why not close the forum as well.... Idiotic indeed !

And the best team doesn't always mean the best players, it s a team game and a few bad apples......

GB has just beaten teams with far better individual players in them, KHL, NHL... So understanding it's not a simple case of one player being better than another but how the overall team dynamic performs.

If this is a waste of a debate then by all means just close the browser window and log on to GBknitting.co.uk.

[Yotes]

Apr 29, 2018 12:25:01 GMT simonm said:

I certainly wouldn't advise any child of mine to spend years and years of effort and your front teeth only to have your heart broken when it comes to playing for GB.

Your mum, surely?

I'd tend towards picking your best team, dual nat or otherwise, but even given that I would expect the team for Slovakia to be very similar to the current one, because those players are good enough quality. There's probably even a few junior Brits (born and trained) who might get in with another year on the clock, like Kirk this year.

[doug]

We've got Brown and Shudra getting very limited ice time with Steelers, both of whom could, and I believe will, become top players, given the opportunity to play that is!

[Bagheera]

It's really simple for me. If they have British ancestry or spent time here growing up like Perlini im o.k with it. On the other hand i'd hate to see a team full of guys playing simply because they'd been here a few years and picked up a British passport.

I'd like to think we'd stick mith the majority of these guys. You do have to keep in mind 2 guys who missed out this time through injury. Mosey and Liam Stewart. Both have played for GB recently. Who's places do they take? Thats potentialy 2 natural Brits missing out already from this years team. Add any more new duals nationals and you may be looking at over half the team.

[simonm]

I'm not concerned about mossey and stewart, to my mind they've played for GB before in previous campaigns. Stewart played at junior level and mossey got injured whilst wearing a GB shirt.

They've done their time.

I'm concerned about the 'glory hunters', those that jump on the bandwagon in the hope of raising their profile.

As for young Brits, I thought Liam Kirk was quality and well worth his position on the team. I would hate to see that put in jeopardy or restrict others of similar quality.

[yeti]

Part of my post from the other posts.

We should stick with the setup that has got us there and not fill the team with dual nationals. The team spirit amongst the true Brits cannot be replaced by adding dual nationals. It is that team spirit that has got the GB team to where it is. You can't buy the togetherness and hard work that this GB team has. It is also debatable which dual nationals there are who would improve the skills set of the current GB team.
There use to be a concensus that GB would never get to the top level in international hockey without filling the team with dual nationals. This has now clearly been proved wrong.

The Panthers and Cardiff Brits playing in the CHL showed how good they are and the GB team shows that the top Brits in our league are very good players and that are league is a lot better than a lot of us probably realise.

I also remember the last time GB got to the top level and only a few true Brits got to play in the team with the rest of the team being dual national Canadians. Friends at the time said why should we be interested in following the GB ice hockey team when every time one of them is interviewed he speaks with a Canadian accent.

The setup in our league was a bit different then with imports like Paul Adey, Rick Brebent, Chris Kelland playing for years in the British league. Imports of the quality of those players do not stay around in our league long enough to qualify to play for GB now and do not have the emotional commitment of playing for GB those players had. Most of the duals that we have like Perlini and Stewart have learnt their hockey here as youngsters and have that emotional commitment.

[dp]

It's a balance. We don't have many dual nationals now - Perlini doesn't count as an import and is UK trained so I don't count him as dual national - and I think it's a good thing.

What makes me laugh though is all these people who talk about how strong German hockey is based on their Olympic performance. They have more dual nationals than GB played in this tournament - and Italy's best player was born in London...

I can see Brendan Perlini playing for us next year - and he was born in Guildford, so why wouldn't you want him to play?

What I feel quite strongly about though is that this team are obviously punching above their weight because of how close a knit group they are and how much they care. I can see us doing respectfully next year purely because we'll throw our face in front of pucks because it means everything to them, whereas a player coming off a tough NHL season who doesn't really care that much about the World Championships won't.

[Yotes]

Someone mentioned Brendan on Twitter yesterday, sounded like because he's represented Canada at youth levels he'd not qualify for us without going through the residency requirements for a change. Don't know how correct that is.

It's a discussion point, but in reality, unless they change the coach, we're not going to be flooded with dual nats now. He's shown no sign of doing that.

[PantherB]

Apr 29, 2018 18:39:55 GMT Yotes said:

Someone mentioned Brendan on Twitter yesterday, sounded like because he's represented Canada at youth levels he'd not qualify for us without going through the residency requirements for a change. Don't know how correct that is.

It's a discussion point, but in reality, unless they change the coach, we're not going to be flooded with dual nats now. He's shown no sign of doing that.

He'd have to come to the UK and play here for 4 years before he could play for GB and not play outside of the UK or play for Canada in that 4 years too.

If he hadn't played for Canada previously he'd only require 2 years in the UK. There could be some rule somewhere which says it only applies to senior internationals but if there is I don't think anyone has found it so 4 years in the UK before Brendan could play for us.

[simonm]

So how come Bret can play for GB in his first season ?

[waynemollydog]

Which players would qualify to play for GB?

[Yotes]

Apr 29, 2018 18:53:04 GMT simonm said:

So how come Bret can play for GB in his first season ?

I think, had he not already played for Canada, the 2 year rule wouldn't apply as he'd have British nationality so could pick whichever nation to play for (like Brett). If you don't have dual nationality, you have to play the 2 years as well as getting citizenship I think.

www.iihf.com/home-of-hockey/championships/iihf-eligibility/

I think like PantherB says he'd now fall under the 4 year rule, as he'd be looking to change. Or at least that was the gist of what it said on Twitter.

[dp]

Apr 29, 2018 18:50:16 GMT PantherB said:

Apr 29, 2018 18:39:55 GMT Yotes said:

Someone mentioned Brendan on Twitter yesterday, sounded like because he's represented Canada at youth levels he'd not qualify for us without going through the residency requirements for a change. Don't know how correct that is.

It's a discussion point, but in reality, unless they change the coach, we're not going to be flooded with dual nats now. He's shown no sign of doing that.

He'd have to come to the UK and play here for 4 years before he could play for GB and not play outside of the UK or play for Canada in that 4 years too.

If he hadn't played for Canada previously he'd only require 2 years in the UK. There could be some rule somewhere which says it only applies to senior internationals but if there is I don't think anyone has found it so 4 years in the UK before Brendan could play for us.

Is that right? Even though he was born here? I know he'd be classed as an import in the Elite league because he played junior hockey in Canada, but surely if you're born in a country you can play for their national team without having to qualify? Doesn't Mosey qualify purely because his parents were born here or something? I know in football you qualify for a national team if you or your parents were born there - and I can't see why it'd be different in hockey.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I have no idea - I'm just asking.

[Deleted]

Apr 29, 2018 18:53:04 GMT simonm said:

So how come Bret can play for GB in his first season ?

British trained. (Guildford days) therefore doesn't matter if he's come from the states although hearing him yesterday he's lost his English accent lol

[spik]

Not wanting players jumping in on places of players who have got us here.Mainly because I don't want them leaving as soon as they got here and the Brits then saying 'stuff you' the following year when asked back in place of the imports because no one else was then available.

[Deleted]

Apr 29, 2018 21:46:36 GMT spik said:

Not wanting players jumping in on places of players who have got us here.Mainly because I don't want them leaving as soon as they got here and the Brits then saying 'stuff you' the following year when asked back in place of the imports because no one else was then available.

Exactly Russell and his staff must show loyalty to the players who got him to the Elite division by calling them up next year providing they are healthy and in good form

[iginla]

Apr 29, 2018 22:15:06 GMT @pidge said:

Apr 29, 2018 21:46:36 GMT spik said:

Not wanting players jumping in on places of players who have got us here.Mainly because I don't want them leaving as soon as they got here and the Brits then saying 'stuff you' the following year when asked back in place of the imports because no one else was then available.

Exactly Russell and his staff must show loyalty to the players who got him to the Elite division by calling them up next year providing they are healthy and in good form

Yes he should largely show loyalty.
Especially as the following year GB will probably be playing in 1A again and any big shots will likely disappear never to be seen again.

[SteelerBlade]

If we wanted we could add Martin & Hotham as they have played here 4 seasons which qualifies them.

[doug]

Apr 30, 2018 6:33:16 GMT SteelerBlade said:

If we wanted we could add Martin & Hotham as they have played here 4 seasons which qualifies them.

But this is exactly what I am against. Why should we pick these two? What qualifies them apart from playing here for four years? They are NOT British.

[messier1851]

Are there any other 'Perlini' types out there? Players who were either born or trained but haven't really played over here?