Why do we accept failure?

[Deleted]

It's a question that's bothered me for years and can't answer it ?

Why doesn't this fan base demand higher standards? Fans of other teams have commented why do Panthers fans seem to have this losers mentality and not one of say Sheffield for example . There's never any pressure put on the Panthers Org to make sure things are put right

[PantherTom]

Too many happy clappers

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2018 12:00:20 GMT PantherTom said:

Too many happy clappers

But why doesn't there appear to be as many at other rival teams ?

[iginla]

Excellent question Pidge.

Come on people....WHY do Panthers fans accept failure and mediocrity ?

[Robbie Nud]

Why to the Panthers IHC seem to accept failure and mediocrity ?

[Yotes]

I'm not sure we have more happy clappers than other teams, by that I mean the real quiz night, sweetie chucking, "mates" with the players, defenders of the faith. The messages you see on Twitter are always from the same people.

I think we have fewer fans than Sheffield at the opposite end of the spectrum (the Cage end ) - the negative messages are usually from the same people too

The lion's share of our fans, imo, are in the middle ground. They will always go but don't live and die for it, and accept it for what it is. They probably rolled their eyes at the result, but weren't going to go on social media to vent about it.

If you look at Sheffield's Twitter output yesterday, a load of negative, but still a similar number to us of HC types mixed in there defending the estate agent's BFF leading them to another pathetic collapse.

[Deleted]

After all that you haven't answered the question... Why do Panthers fans accept failure?

[Yotes]

Feb 8, 2018 12:33:12 GMT @pidge said:

After all that you haven't answered the question... Why do Panthers fans accept failure?

Because they don't really care all that much, not to the point of action anyway. They want them to win, they'll be disappointed they aren't going to, but not winning isn't the end of the world. There's always next year. I think the vast majority of our fanbase is in that section, not a happy clapper, but not the other end either.

[dill1015]

Historically Panthers were a community team. Whole families would go for years on end. And we werent expected to win all the time. In the ISL days we were small fry compared to the cheque book teams that gutted the sport in this country.

Then the arena came along and the ISL colapsed. Suddenly Panthers were on a level playing field, however you still had the same crowd. Loyal, game knowledgable fans who had been there for years.

It was a slow start for the arena era. We didnt start to really see Panthers compete for a few years. But all the while more and more 'come for the occasion' fans started coming. And sadly the community feel of the club slipped away. As such slowly but surely the club has swapped old time, knowledgeable fans for people who dont really understand the game but like to go for the match night experience.

I want to point out that theres nothing wrong with those fans. Everyone can spend thier money thier own way.

But there is a side effect of these sorts of crowds is that they dont demand high quality product. Good cup runs will satisfy these people. Whereas older fans like myself see it as 'i went though the hard times where there was no hope, now i want the good times where we should be winning'. Its immensely frustrating watching Panthers blow thier chance year after year even though we're not small fry anymore.

Personally as someone who understands the game better than the average fan what really gets me is the garbage on ice product of the last few years. We're boring. Dump and bloody chase. No! Just no! We can afford quality players who can play the puck get them. We're not a shoe string team that cant afford class. Sign players who can pass a puck and create space with movment. But the average fan cant tell the difference. Our powerplay is frankly ugly.

You compare our club to steelers. A club born on instant success. Their fans only know one thing so is it any wonder they demand as much.

Since Panthers have never truley dominated British hockey, its no wonder our fans dont expect us to. And no cup runs dont count. Its about being the team to beat week in week out. Season in season out.

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2018 12:38:14 GMT Yotes said:

Feb 8, 2018 12:33:12 GMT @pidge said:

After all that you haven't answered the question... Why do Panthers fans accept failure?

Because they don't really care all that much, not to the point of action anyway. They want them to win, they'll be disappointed they aren't going to, but not winning isn't the end of the world. There's always next year. I think the vast majority of our fanbase is in that section, not a happy clapper, but not the other end either.

Not caring pretty much nails it on the head for me . Watching a pro sports team should all be about caring . Somewhere it's been drilled into a typical Panthers Fan to have this attitude.

I just guess Sheffield fans care more about there team than Panthers fans do about there's.

Btw I use Sheffield as they are the benchmark to of what we should be matching up to .

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2018 12:41:32 GMT dill1015 said:

Historically Panthers were a community team. Whole families would go for years on end. And we werent expected to win all the time. In the ISL days we were small fry compared to the cheque book teams that gutted the sport in this country.

Then the arena came along and the ISL colapsed. Suddenly Panthers were on a level playing field, however you still had the same crowd. Loyal, game knowledgable fans who had been there for years.

It was a slow start for the arena era. We didnt start to really see Panthers compete for a few years. But all the while more and more 'come for the occasion' fans started coming. And sadly the community feel of the club slipped away. As such slowly but surely the club has swapped old time, knowledgeable fans for people who dont really understand the game but like to go for the match night experience.

I want to point out that theres nothing wrong with those fans. Everyone can spend thier money thier own way.

But there is a side effect of these sorts of crowds is that they dont demand high quality product. Good cup runs will satisfy these people. Whereas older fans like myself see it as 'i went though the hard times where there was no hope, now i want the good times where we should be winning'. Its immensely frustrating watching Panthers blow thier chance year after year even though we're not small fry anymore.

Personally as someone who understands the game better than the average fan what really gets me is the garbage on ice product of the last few years. We're boring. Dump and bloody chase. No! Just no! We can afford quality players who can play the puck get them. We're not a shoe string team that cant afford class. Sign players who can pass a puck and create space with movment. But the average fan cant tell the difference. Our powerplay is frankly ugly.

You compare our club to steelers. A club born on instant success. Their fans only know one thing so is it any wonder they demand as much.

Since Panthers have never truley dominated British hockey, its no wonder our fans dont expect us to. And no cup runs dont count. Its about being the team to beat week in week out. Season in season out.

Pretty much spot on that.

[Deleted]

I don't feel we have more happy clappers than any other team(proportionately speaking anyway) it's just that we now employ somebody to make sure that they have a louder voice on social media.

I'm going to be really unpopular in some quarters for saying this but I've been thinking about this during our bad run.

Callum isn't in the wrong for doing what he does but I am starting to feel we are paying somebody what is probably a decent wage to just retweet positive tweets. Other than a few interviews and more social media activity are we really getting value for money in that position? The website content is exactly the same as it always has been. We are just unoriginal and what does it really achieve other than appeasing those who will pile money into the club regardless.

Would that £20k+ be better spent on the playing side of our club? I couldn't care less if GM wants to make a few social media cockerel ups if it means we have a better chance of winning a league title.

I hate the culture many of our fans have with the club who can do no wrong but the fans who are on planet earth just don't really have the voice to make the debate seem more balanced other than maybe on here. On social media you'll just be shouted down by the club retweeting a happy clapper who has replied to you.

Our whole media presence has become a 'pat yourself on the back' exercise and I'm bored of it.

[Yotes]

Feb 8, 2018 12:41:32 GMT dill1015 said:

Historically Panthers were a community team. Whole families would go for years on end. And we werent expected to win all the time. In the ISL days we were small fry compared to the cheque book teams that gutted the sport in this country.

Then the arena came along and the ISL colapsed. Suddenly Panthers were on a level playing field, however you still had the same crowd. Loyal, game knowledgable fans who had been there for years.

It was a slow start for the arena era. We didnt start to really see Panthers compete for a few years. But all the while more and more 'come for the occasion' fans started coming. And sadly the community feel of the club slipped away. As such slowly but surely the club has swapped old time, knowledgeable fans for people who dont really understand the game but like to go for the match night experience.

I want to point out that theres nothing wrong with those fans. Everyone can spend thier money thier own way.

But there is a side effect of these sorts of crowds is that they dont demand high quality product. Good cup runs will satisfy these people. Whereas older fans like myself see it as 'i went though the hard times where there was no hope, now i want the good times where we should be winning'. Its immensely frustrating watching Panthers blow thier chance year after year even though we're not small fry anymore.

Personally as someone who understands the game better than the average fan what really gets me is the garbage on ice product of the last few years. We're boring. Dump and bloody chase. No! Just no! We can afford quality players who can play the puck get them. We're not a shoe string team that cant afford class. Sign players who can pass a puck and create space with movment. But the average fan cant tell the difference. Our powerplay is frankly ugly.

You compare our club to steelers. A club born on instant success. Their fans only know one thing so is it any wonder they demand as much.

Since Panthers have never truley dominated British hockey, its no wonder our fans dont expect us to. And no cup runs dont count. Its about being the team to beat week in week out. Season in season out.

Very good post Dill, but I'm not sure you older fans are necessarily the ones who demand quality. In fact I'd say in many cases they're very much my "always next year" group. Going is what they do, it's in their blood. They're not going to stop going because we fluff our lines again (and again). Not caring was probably the wrong choice of words from me, I don't think they don't care, you'll see them bemoaning a poor performance at the game, but they're back in place next season.

Totally agree on the style of play, dreadful stuff these days.

I think the bigger problem, as Robbie says, is that the management of the club accept failure. Our absentee owner and his crony.

[Spooks]

We have a GM who was instructed to get the club out of Debt..... The same GM has delivered nothing over the past 20 years apart from one championship win, a couple of play off wins and the farcical nonsense of the challenge cup.

That lack of ambition and constraints of the owner (even more so with two clubs) amounts to cash > Success.

Success is measured in Nottingham in how much profit can be made, not on the ice. So aside from firing a under-performing GM and the owner selling up... Nothing is going to change.

The fans put up with it as they have nothing better to do on a Saturday night it seems, and the old maybe next week mentality has filtered down from the old timers.

[vercingetorix1966]

Despite being old enough to have easily watched every Panthers game since they reformed I only started watching them in the arena era.

I went for the first time, was gripped by it, went to more games, finally bought a season ticket, over time came to realise it wasn’t worth it because the last few games of the season were usually pointless. I cancelled my season ticket and just went to meaningful games, usually from August to around New Year. This process took about 6 years.

As a relatively new fan who only went for sporting reasons I despise the ‘night out’ mentality but can grudgingly understand it as they are getting out of it what they expect.

What I don’t understand is Ice stadium era fans who consistently go, talk about the nostalgia of the old days whilst moaning about the present team performances and go year on year? I still remember when we told my mother-in-law that we were cancelling our season tickets and she bawled her eyes out.

Yet she would still be sitting next to the same folks she had for years before we turned up. She just goes basically because it’s what she’s done for years and would feel a huge gap in her Saturday nights.

I don’t understand this mentality at all.

[Yotes]

Your mother-in-law's continued attendance seems very understandable to me. Belonging to the group is part of following any sports team. That goes beyond being unmoved or furious that the team have just plopped out of the Challenge Cup.

[Caesar]

With what has happened to Rob this year, is it any wonder folks are reluctant to put their head above the parapet and critise performances on social media?

[PantherB]

I think in more recent times it's been a case of we accept it because nothing we do will ever bring change, so what's the point. It's the same year in year out.

The club is owned and run by business/money first individuals, 'we're above everyone else' type individuals and coached by guys who have no pressure on them. What i'd give to have an ownership like Cardiff's. Even if they didn't have the money they did, they'd still be superb owners. Hockey fans first and foremost.

Compared to other clubs, we as fans are very critical and demanding, sometimes unreasonably but most of the time I feel we're forced into being that way. Urgency and passion seems to be qualities that Panthers do not have, but the fan base is full of it. If we were in financial difficulties I could cope with long term success plans, but we aren't. We have the highest average attendance, the most dedicated fans, a long list of sponsors, very healthy situation yet success is a hard thing to come by. Clear out all off ice staff, besides the front line workers (calum etc..) and switch with Devils, Giants, Steelers, Storm's management teams.. I would put good money on us winning the league within two seasons max.

Players don't appear to play with any pressure as soon as Pre-season is out the way. Might as well give them a pillow and blanket for when they're on the bench they're that comfy. Yet players often seem surprised when fans are wanting to scream in their faces and everything. I don't feel players deserve personal abuse but I've found that Panthers players especially do not take criticism very well at all. They're soft and too comfortable.

If it wasn't for the fact I enjoy watching hockey, at all levels, I wouldn't go. I enjoy watching the way other teams often play with high passion levels, seem to give multiple strategies a go and don't give up. How many times I've seen Panthers get a comfortable lead, the opposition gets one and it pumps their blood like it's had pure adrenaline and cocaine pumped into it, is ridiculous!

[Robbie Nud]

Maybe Spooks nailed it. GM is given to the instruction get out of debt and solvent. Ok he did and the club became a commercial success, job done. But we are not a success in the field where it matters, ie on the ice. If we were then more people would come, they'd go hope happy and come again.

You would have thought that someone who proclaims to be as passionate about hockey as GM professes to be on ice success would be paramount. Obviously not, but then this is someone made thousands by setting up premium rate phone lines for fans to get club news.

[vercingetorix1966]

Feb 8, 2018 13:45:56 GMT Yotes said:

Your mother-in-law's continued attendance seems very understandable to me. Belonging to the group is part of following any sports team. That goes beyond being unmoved or furious that the team have just plopped out of the Challenge Cup.

I get the fact Panthers fans generally fall into three categories; those who will support at all costs, those disillusioned under Black/Moran and those that don’t give a damn. But Black turns a profit year on year, he’s only 56 and Moran is 58 so I can’t see it changing any time soon. The question was why do we accept failure and I would say that currently I’m not. Black is getting nothing from me personally as this season wears on, although my wife and son still attend as is their right. But we all felt that sense of belonging and just because we no longer attend doesn’t mean it’s totally gone. My mother-in-law didn’t even know Panthers we’re playing last night when she rang the wife yet we had the game on the radio.

[Rob Scott]

Round we go again. Same thing every year.

Over the years the supporters gradually see the club for what it is. A massively successful money making machine. Not a sports club. Said fans whinge on hear and whine on social media. That doesn't achieve anything so lots of them fall out of love and stop going. No problem to the club. They were getting a bit annoying anyway and they will be replaced by a nice happy merchandise buying spin devouring newbie in no time.

The ONLY way further improvements will be seen is by the fans uniting to create a louder voice which would be much more difficult to ignore.

Anyone fancy starting up something like a supporters trust? No? Thought not, after all it's loads easier to post sarcastic comments on social media and have a moan on here.

[dill1015]

Feb 8, 2018 13:01:29 GMT Yotes said:

Feb 8, 2018 12:41:32 GMT dill1015 said:

Historically Panthers were a community team. Whole families would go for years on end. And we werent expected to win all the time. In the ISL days we were small fry compared to the cheque book teams that gutted the sport in this country.

Then the arena came along and the ISL colapsed. Suddenly Panthers were on a level playing field, however you still had the same crowd. Loyal, game knowledgable fans who had been there for years.

It was a slow start for the arena era. We didnt start to really see Panthers compete for a few years. But all the while more and more 'come for the occasion' fans started coming. And sadly the community feel of the club slipped away. As such slowly but surely the club has swapped old time, knowledgeable fans for people who dont really understand the game but like to go for the match night experience.

I want to point out that theres nothing wrong with those fans. Everyone can spend thier money thier own way.

But there is a side effect of these sorts of crowds is that they dont demand high quality product. Good cup runs will satisfy these people. Whereas older fans like myself see it as 'i went though the hard times where there was no hope, now i want the good times where we should be winning'. Its immensely frustrating watching Panthers blow thier chance year after year even though we're not small fry anymore.

Personally as someone who understands the game better than the average fan what really gets me is the garbage on ice product of the last few years. We're boring. Dump and bloody chase. No! Just no! We can afford quality players who can play the puck get them. We're not a shoe string team that cant afford class. Sign players who can pass a puck and create space with movment. But the average fan cant tell the difference. Our powerplay is frankly ugly.

You compare our club to steelers. A club born on instant success. Their fans only know one thing so is it any wonder they demand as much.

Since Panthers have never truley dominated British hockey, its no wonder our fans dont expect us to. And no cup runs dont count. Its about being the team to beat week in week out. Season in season out.

Very good post Dill, but I'm not sure you older fans are necessarily the ones who demand quality. In fact I'd say in many cases they're very much my "always next year" group. Going is what they do, it's in their blood. They're not going to stop going because we fluff our lines again (and again). Not caring was probably the wrong choice of words from me, I don't think they don't care, you'll see them bemoaning a poor performance at the game, but they're back in place next season.

Totally agree on the style of play, dreadful stuff these days.

I think the bigger problem, as Robbie says, is that the management of the club accept failure. Our absentee owner and his crony.

You might be righg now avout our older fans because all the ones i grew up with have moved on. The ones who really cant take it anymore.

I think one of the biggest problems is that we get such filtered responses from the club. Its hard to relate to the club anymore its only because of the lifeling connection i have that i still care. But why cant we have people on an interview sometimes just go "we were awful! The guys are embarrased because we were dreadful." And have articles tunning up to the next game going on about how much better we need to be.

What we actally get is " 0-10 at home, not the best night was it corey?"
"no not really"
"but dont worry folks good seats still avalible! And dont forget the quiz night!"

I feels the same as when a politician is talking... totally heartless. Its no wonder feel as though they lose their connection with the club.

[vercingetorix1966]

There was a video on the bbc sports app yesterday of an NBA player being interviewed and when he was asked a relatively innocuous question he looked beyond the camera to the obvious team pr person and said “what’s my answer to that question” three times. When they didn’t tell him what to say he walked off. It was priceless, although Corey is safe because he’s being interviewed by Moran so they already know the company line.

[Mark]

Habit is a major reason. I am deeply unhappy with the constant failure in the league and now our lousy playoff and Challenge Cup record, but Saturday night is, and has been Hockey night. I am however coming to the end as regards this situation. The recent game against Dundee was a watershed for me, I didn't care about attending and only did because my wife had already purchased tickets. The match itself bored me rigid and only misguided loyalty kept me at the arena. I would have happily left before the first period and had zero enthusiasm throughout the game.
One of the biggest issue's however, in my opinion is that there seems to be little accountability for the main protagonists. We have a large proportion of supporters who seem to think any criticism of the club is unjust and relegates individuals to the status of, 'not real fans.' Added to this are the organisations who know that any negativity from themselves will lead to removal from their current positions, the media, photographers and any number of hangers on. When was the last time the club received any real negative feedback from The Post for example?
Neilson, Moran and Black are surrounded by yes men. Little wonder they feel little pressure to deliver.

[mansfieldpanther91]

I really can't understand why we accept so much rubbish from the club.
I've always followed Mansfield town and can compare this with the end of the Keith Haslam era if anyone knows what I mean?
The owner was stripping the club of its assetts and pocketing the cash, putting mediocre squads out year upon year.
Neil black and GM although they are not stripping assetts they are pocketing a shed load of cash, Not interested in results on ice at all.
The big difference is. The fans.
At Mansfield there were regular protests, petitions, chants.
What do we have here? The vast majority of near sell out crowds going crackers over winning deadwood games for the second half of the season, year after year. That along with the constant cringeworthy tweets etc constantly makes me feel sick.
To me , it's down to alot of these people why nothing has changed and nothing will ever change.
I'm torn about renewing my season ticket, I love the sport, I love the Panthers, but I'm so annoyed with what's going on.