iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,436
|
Post by iginla on Feb 8, 2018 21:47:29 GMT
Won't happen. In my experience people rarely back up their words with action. I'm not doubting Simon, Mardibum or Iginla but a chant won't take hold in the arena. To be fair to Iginla at least he asked the questions he said he would at an earlier Q&A. Most who said they were going to speak said nothing or "couldn't make it". I did and i would do so again if we get the chance......but i bet Black won't show his face again at another Q+A until at least October !
|
|
|
Post by jdizpt8 on Feb 8, 2018 21:53:51 GMT
Different people will have different views on failure so it’s a bit of an open questions. There are fans who go to see a game see us win and are happy, see us lose and are sad but their lives don’t change from it. There’s fans who take in the odd road game and buy tickets to most but not all home games and maybe they just like to get out the house and be entertained by a sporting event without having any real investment in the club they just spend the evening with mates and that’s fine for them. And then we have the fans who invest time and money into the club, season tickets and regular road games who expect the team to perform and win trophies, some of these fans have been misguided by the trophy haul we’ve collected with only winning the league once and then we have the others who are pee’d off when year OJ year our league campaign unravels in December then we give it a good go mid Feb until the end of the year finishing 3rd/4th. So like I’ve said different expectations from different fans. Failure might not be what they all see.
|
|
dp
Jim Keyes
Posts: 966
|
Post by dp on Feb 8, 2018 21:57:39 GMT
The problem is that in Black and GM's eyes we're not failing. Look at our average attendances.
This is entertainment, not competitive sport - everyone just needs to accept that and either live with it, or stop going (as I have).
It goes far wider than Panthers. The CC pairings being decided mid-season to ensure that the arena clubs avoid each other and maximise gate receipts. The POFW seedings seemingly being made up as they go along to ensure the big teams make the final. The consistently bizarre DOPS rulings. The plastic supermarket bag with the "dubious balls" for the CC draw.
Can you imagine the FA getting to the 5th round of the FA Cup and announcing that teams can now choose who they want to play? Or Shearer pulling the same ball out of a Sainsbury's bag twice in a draw?
It sounds ridiculous when you think about it, but that's what it is. The infamous quote from Todd Kelman, who is pretty influential in the running of the league these days, tells you all you need to know - "we're not competing with other sports teams for people's money, we're competing with the cinema and X Factor" (or words to that effect). And that's how the league is run.
As I say, accept it or move on. As horrible as it is, the 100 or so people on the Cage are never going to drown out the 6,000 in the arena who are there instead of watching X Factor...
|
|
|
Post by shaun30 on Feb 8, 2018 22:01:17 GMT
I’m in no way a happy clapper, but also not one of doom mongers, I would like think anyway.
The reason why I watch hockey is that it’s an end 2 end fast paced game, and as a result any team can beat another on any given night....could be argued that’s what makes it fun.
If we win great, but if we lose not so great, but what makes a difference for me is when we lose with absolutely no fight,desire or effort.! Sometimes you just get beat by a better team,,,,,but you can take pride in the effort imo.
The game that sums up that frustration more than any other is the Xmas home game against the steelers - the way we played that game shows that something was seriously amiss at the time, probably still is.
Tbh I don’t really buy into all this gm/nb hatred.....whoever I think we have I don’t think it would change that much, but as a loyal fan I think the one thing that both the club and the arena are doing wrong is trying to continually fleece fans on the back of years of steady attendance increases, there doesn’t seem to be any genuine goodwill at all.
Attendances are increasing based on past successes or style of hockey, but the way the NIC are taking the wee wee on ridiculous price increases that I’m sure the club take a little bit of is starting to cheese off a lot of the long term fans.
For the first time in a long time all I have spent on this club is for my ST....I have got no intention of spending anymore money on any cc games,playoffs or chl etc, I Am not near stopping my ST but I know a lot are,
No fans equals no club ultimately
|
|
|
Post by mansfieldpanther91 on Feb 8, 2018 22:01:37 GMT
Different people will have different views on failure so it’s a bit of an open questions. There are fans who go to see a game see us win and are happy, see us lose and are sad but their lives don’t change from it. There’s fans who take in the odd road game and buy tickets to most but not all home games and maybe they just like to get out the house and be entertained by a sporting event without having any real investment in the club they just spend the evening with mates and that’s fine for them. And then we have the fans who invest time and money into the club, season tickets and regular road games who expect the team to perform and win trophies, some of these fans have been misguided by the trophy haul we’ve collected with only winning the league once and then we have the others who are pee’d off when year OJ year our league campaign unravels in December then we give it a good go mid Feb until the end of the year finishing 3rd/4th. So like I’ve said different expectations from different fans. Failure might not be what they all see. That's exactly what it is, but there seem to be more fans that just go to get out of the house and be entertained by a sporting event than the hard-core who buy season tickets and do road trips etc. I've been going 3-4 years and it didn't take me long to realise what a big club this is. First road trips I did were Cardiff (BBT) and Coventry, soon realised given the size of their rinks etc, that we should be at very least challenging for the league every season. Maybe that explains why alot are content with what we see at home games, because they havnt really seen the bigger picture.
|
|
iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,436
|
Post by iginla on Feb 8, 2018 22:55:13 GMT
Different people will have different views on failure so it’s a bit of an open questions. There are fans who go to see a game see us win and are happy, see us lose and are sad but their lives don’t change from it. There’s fans who take in the odd road game and buy tickets to most but not all home games and maybe they just like to get out the house and be entertained by a sporting event without having any real investment in the club they just spend the evening with mates and that’s fine for them. And then we have the fans who invest time and money into the club, season tickets and regular road games who expect the team to perform and win trophies, some of these fans have been misguided by the trophy haul we’ve collected with only winning the league once and then we have the others who are pee’d off when year OJ year our league campaign unravels in December then we give it a good go mid Feb until the end of the year finishing 3rd/4th. So like I’ve said different expectations from different fans. Failure might not be what they all see. That's exactly what it is, but there seem to be more fans that just go to get out of the house and be entertained by a sporting event than the hard-core who buy season tickets and do road trips etc. I've been going 3-4 years and it didn't take me long to realise what a big club this is. First road trips I did were Cardiff (BBT) and Coventry, soon realised given the size of their rinks etc, that we should be at very least challenging for the league every season. Maybe that explains why alot are content with what we see at home games, because they havnt really seen the bigger picture. That's a good point about the amount of fans who actually realise just how big Panthers are compared to most other EIHL teams. A lot of them probably don't have a clue that the opposition who just beat us possibly did so on a shoestring playing in front of crowds of 1500. They probably think all the other teams have big shiny arena's and loads of money too. Have you seen Edinburghs crowds recently.....their last two home gates were 300 plus and 400 plus. To put that into perspective,one of those crowds would barely fill block 5 at the NIC ! At present there are the big four teams who basically win every trophy between them,but think of a few years ago and Panthers underperformance gets even worse. Remember the latter part of the Bob Phillips and then Paul Reagan era at Cardiff/Sheffield when both those clubs were in a financial mess and complete turmoil,whilst Belfast too were struggling badly and Coventry were literally handing round the begging bowl. That must have been between about 2008 - 2012 and at that time with all the other big boys in major trouble,Panthers should have absolutely dominated the league over those years. Did they though.....NO not even close and now the others are back. Panthers had the golden opportunity to dominate and they couldn't even manage that !
|
|
|
Post by spik on Feb 9, 2018 4:50:39 GMT
I've not accepted the spin. I've gradually torn myself away from the game, though I love the sport,and now don't go (mainly because of cost) but don't miss it now.Far too many poor decisions from governing body and the clubs self importance. Olympics on TV will suffice to interest me, probably forgetting about Pantgers......then hearing of another dreadful decision from Elite eg) Play Off format change tells me I made the right choice. Watch from afar , less I choose to wander over.I'm not controlled by the club , I make choices of my own.
Feel for those of you still going. Which is where Pidge came in asking, why continue to take it.
|
|
shinobi
Randall Weber
Forum Dictator
Posts: 4,741
|
Post by shinobi on Feb 9, 2018 22:38:34 GMT
Historically Panthers were a community team. Whole families would go for years on end. And we werent expected to win all the time. In the ISL days we were small fry compared to the cheque book teams that gutted the sport in this country. Then the arena came along and the ISL colapsed. Suddenly Panthers were on a level playing field, however you still had the same crowd. Loyal, game knowledgable fans who had been there for years. It was a slow start for the arena era. We didnt start to really see Panthers compete for a few years. But all the while more and more 'come for the occasion' fans started coming. And sadly the community feel of the club slipped away. As such slowly but surely the club has swapped old time, knowledgeable fans for people who dont really understand the game but like to go for the match night experience. I want to point out that theres nothing wrong with those fans. Everyone can spend thier money thier own way. But there is a side effect of these sorts of crowds is that they dont demand high quality product. Good cup runs will satisfy these people. Whereas older fans like myself see it as 'i went though the hard times where there was no hope, now i want the good times where we should be winning'. Its immensely frustrating watching Panthers blow thier chance year after year even though we're not small fry anymore. Personally as someone who understands the game better than the average fan what really gets me is the garbage on ice product of the last few years. We're boring. Dump and bloody chase. No! Just no! We can afford quality players who can play the puck get them. We're not a shoe string team that cant afford class. Sign players who can pass a puck and create space with movment. But the average fan cant tell the difference. Our powerplay is frankly ugly. You compare our club to steelers. A club born on instant success. Their fans only know one thing so is it any wonder they demand as much. Since Panthers have never truley dominated British hockey, its no wonder our fans dont expect us to. And no cup runs dont count. Its about being the team to beat week in week out. Season in season out. I think this is probably the best post I have seen in a long time & it sums up my own feelings.
|
|
shinobi
Randall Weber
Forum Dictator
Posts: 4,741
|
Post by shinobi on Feb 9, 2018 22:54:27 GMT
To be honest you'll need to sit in one block to have any chance of coordinating it and having your voices carry. Of course then you've got to hope that Ken won't just put on the 'clap, clap woo' song to drown you out as soon as they realise you're doing something that may make people within the club uncomfortable. I've booked an overtime shift for Saturday. I'd rather £350 in my pocket than put anymore into Neil Black's. I’ve booked annual leave but will be looking after my boys while the wife goes out with her friends; I’m not bothered in the slightest that I’m missing the “ biggest game in ice hockey” or whatever nonsensical phrase is utilised.
|
|
iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,436
|
Post by iginla on Feb 9, 2018 23:18:11 GMT
Historically Panthers were a community team. Whole families would go for years on end. And we werent expected to win all the time. In the ISL days we were small fry compared to the cheque book teams that gutted the sport in this country. Then the arena came along and the ISL colapsed. Suddenly Panthers were on a level playing field, however you still had the same crowd. Loyal, game knowledgable fans who had been there for years. It was a slow start for the arena era. We didnt start to really see Panthers compete for a few years. But all the while more and more 'come for the occasion' fans started coming. And sadly the community feel of the club slipped away. As such slowly but surely the club has swapped old time, knowledgeable fans for people who dont really understand the game but like to go for the match night experience. I want to point out that theres nothing wrong with those fans. Everyone can spend thier money thier own way. But there is a side effect of these sorts of crowds is that they dont demand high quality product. Good cup runs will satisfy these people. Whereas older fans like myself see it as 'i went though the hard times where there was no hope, now i want the good times where we should be winning'. Its immensely frustrating watching Panthers blow thier chance year after year even though we're not small fry anymore. Personally as someone who understands the game better than the average fan what really gets me is the garbage on ice product of the last few years. We're boring. Dump and bloody chase. No! Just no! We can afford quality players who can play the puck get them. We're not a shoe string team that cant afford class. Sign players who can pass a puck and create space with movment. But the average fan cant tell the difference. Our powerplay is frankly ugly. You compare our club to steelers. A club born on instant success. Their fans only know one thing so is it any wonder they demand as much. Since Panthers have never truley dominated British hockey, its no wonder our fans dont expect us to. And no cup runs dont count. Its about being the team to beat week in week out. Season in season out. I think this is probably the best post I have seen in a long time & it sums up my own feelings. It is indeed an excellent post......One thing puzzles me though about our old and new era's,even though i wasn't around then so i didn't see these Durham Wasps teams etc In the old days when Panthers were just a small fish and we didn't apparently expect to win.......why were these big powerhouse teams winning ? And so now Panthers are a powerhouse amongst lots of little fish.....why aren't Panthers winning ?
|
|
|
Post by texpef on Feb 10, 2018 2:40:04 GMT
The likes of Durham won because they had a revolving door policy regarding under achieving imports when teams were only allowed to sign 4 then add to that if a team in that era had a handful of "import" quality brits they could dominate and Durham (and north east in general) had good junior development with a good pipeline of quality british players coming through. This all peaked with the cooper brothers and blaisdell/brebant era and when cheque book hockey was first introduced the devils bought their success with the buying in of the cooper brothers for instance. Damps was the first of the Nottingham coaches to introduce a junior development and this was in the process of bringing along players that panthers could play that would compete along the best of whatever else we had in England (Hunt Tait etc etc) just at the time that other so called bigger clubs in the country did not want to wait for their own programs and introduced the ISL with some teams not having a single brit in their side. This sidelined the brits (And one of the reasons we lost tait to Coventry as it was cheaper to bring in a foreigner that player ash).
Some of the best teams we have ever seen were in the ISL era (shame they were not seen in Nottingham though and it proved to be none sustainable) but once this collapsed it allowed teams that were from lower leagues who did have brits to actually thrive early on in the EIHL days such as Coventry and Newcastle but once other teams caught it they were always going to struggle and hence Newcastle no longer exist and Coventry are generally a minor club these days.
|
|
|
Post by dill1015 on Feb 10, 2018 8:44:36 GMT
I think this is probably the best post I have seen in a long time & it sums up my own feelings. It is indeed an excellent post......One thing puzzles me though about our old and new era's,even though i wasn't around then so i didn't see these Durham Wasps teams etc In the old days when Panthers were just a small fish and we didn't apparently expect to win.......why were these big powerhouse teams winning ? And so now Panthers are a powerhouse amongst lots of little fish.....why aren't Panthers winning ? Money. It was boom and bust. As mad as i am with panthers i never want to see the game go back to that. Which is why i dont advocate buying success by just oversending everyone massivley.
|
|
|
Post by spik on Feb 10, 2018 13:29:31 GMT
Different people will have different views on failure so it’s a bit of an open questions. There are fans who go to see a game see us win and are happy, see us lose and are sad but their lives don’t change from it. There’s fans who take in the odd road game and buy tickets to most but not all home games and maybe they just like to get out the house and be entertained by a sporting event without having any real investment in the club they just spend the evening with mates and that’s fine for them. And then we have the fans who invest time and money into the club, season tickets and regular road games who expect the team to perform and win trophies, some of these fans have been misguided by the trophy haul we’ve collected with only winning the league once and then we have the others who are pee’d off when year OJ year our league campaign unravels in December then we give it a good go mid Feb until the end of the year finishing 3rd/4th. So like I’ve said different expectations from different fans. Failure might not be what they all see. True. But I do expect effort from paid professionals and support from the club (finance/cover of players) as those assumed as wanting too much perhaps. Does not mean that they are asking of too much if those sat next to them are happy with the music and thrill of a night's entertainment.Primerilly it's a sport.
|
|
iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,436
|
Post by iginla on Feb 10, 2018 13:52:22 GMT
It is indeed an excellent post......One thing puzzles me though about our old and new era's,even though i wasn't around then so i didn't see these Durham Wasps teams etc In the old days when Panthers were just a small fish and we didn't apparently expect to win.......why were these big powerhouse teams winning ? And so now Panthers are a powerhouse amongst lots of little fish.....why aren't Panthers winning ? Money. It was boom and bust. As mad as i am with panthers i never want to see the game go back to that. Which is why i dont advocate buying success by just oversending everyone massivley. Nobody is asking for or wants to see boom and bust. But if our only 3 big challengers can have spares and bring replacements in seemingly at the drop of a hat, then why can’t Panthers? Jeez we could chuck another £100k into our summer player budget and we wouldn’t even miss it profit wise. Look at Mosey’s latest injury,what’s going on there. Sneaked him out of the line up and it’s all gone very quiet with nothing much being said.
|
|
shinobi
Randall Weber
Forum Dictator
Posts: 4,741
|
Post by shinobi on Feb 10, 2018 14:28:35 GMT
To be fair to the club, why should they reveal what injury a player has? NHL clubs don’t, often declaring injuries as either UBI or LBI, without anything specific.
|
|
|
Post by The Flying Shirt on Feb 10, 2018 14:45:20 GMT
It is indeed an excellent post......One thing puzzles me though about our old and new era's,even though i wasn't around then so i didn't see these Durham Wasps teams etc In the old days when Panthers were just a small fish and we didn't apparently expect to win.......why were these big powerhouse teams winning ? And so now Panthers are a powerhouse amongst lots of little fish.....why aren't Panthers winning ? Money. It was boom and bust. As mad as i am with panthers i never want to see the game go back to that. Which is why i dont advocate buying success by just oversending everyone massivley. Enough EIHL teams have gone or are very close to going bust long since the ISL
|
|
iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,436
|
Post by iginla on Feb 10, 2018 14:50:15 GMT
To be fair to the club, why should they reveal what injury a player has? NHL clubs don’t, often declaring injuries as either UBI or LBI, without anything specific. Yes i realise that,but this is Panthers ! Knowing how they work,the signing deadline will pass on Feb 15th and then we will find out Mosey is going to miss about another six weeks !! 🙄 We’re still waiting for that Dman that Neilson was on about a few weeks ago.
|
|
iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,436
|
Post by iginla on Feb 10, 2018 14:55:31 GMT
Money. It was boom and bust. As mad as i am with panthers i never want to see the game go back to that. Which is why i dont advocate buying success by just oversending everyone massivley. Enough EIHL teams have gone or are very close to going bust long since the ISL Which is exactly the problem and why Panthers don’t spend what they easily could,because we’re held back by others in trying to keep a fair playing field. It’s a sham the EIHL and why this garbage isn’t worth watching anymore. It’s on a par with that WWE wrestling crap !
|
|
Mark
Randall Weber
Experience has taught me that when it really matters the only person you can rely on is yourself.
Posts: 4,616
|
Post by Mark on Feb 10, 2018 16:49:58 GMT
It seems to me that if Neil Black and the Panthers aren’t going to match the likes of Belfast, Cardiff and Sheffield in the player stakes than barring a stunning coaching effort the league as a competition is a waste of time. Unfortunately I am not in the “ I go for the entertainment” brigade, therefore going forward I see little point in attending every league game religiously. The fact that we are not currently particularly entertaining compounds the issue.
|
|
|
Post by spik on Feb 10, 2018 20:38:15 GMT
It seems to me that if Neil Black and the Panthers aren’t going to match the likes of Belfast, Cardiff and Sheffield in the player stakes than barring a stunning coaching effort the league as a competition is a waste of time. Unfortunately I am not in the “ I go for the entertainment” brigade, therefore going forward I see little point in attending every league game religiously. The fact that we are not currently particularly entertaining compounds the issue. Was offered a ticket, ie) free entry as someone was out of the country. Turned it down.Does that not speak volumes?
|
|
|
Post by vercingetorix1966 on Feb 10, 2018 21:35:48 GMT
Enough EIHL teams have gone or are very close to going bust long since the ISL Which is exactly the problem and why Panthers don’t spend what they easily could,because we’re held back by others in trying to keep a fair playing field. It’s a sham the EIHL and why this garbage isn’t worth watching anymore. It’s on a par with that WWE wrestling crap ! To be honest my only concern is seeing Panthers do well so I would be more than happy to see us flex our financial muscle. Of course others will counter with the argument that if we start spending other teams will try to keep up and go bust as a result, and it’s better to have a league to play in than have no league at all. I only partially subscribe to this point. It’s easy to see why others try to limit the resources at the coaches disposal because it inhibits our on ice performance (as well as his ineptitude). The worst thing is our owner going along with it simply because it increases his bank balance. I would say a financial fair play model like in football, where 60% of turnover can be spent on wages, would work but it would still create huge discrepancies in actual budgets. You could go round in circles with working out a fair system and I don’t know what the answer is?
|
|
|
Post by dill1015 on Feb 10, 2018 21:41:07 GMT
I have no doubt we match people in budget. We just get poor value. And im tired of watching it.
|
|
|
Post by spik on Feb 10, 2018 21:58:30 GMT
If we matched others spend/efforts.I could not give a monkeys that other teams MAY fall foul and go bust should they try to increase theirs therafter.But I bet that our club probably would not want to lose a league team because that would mean lost revenue, not having a team to play.Therefore not surprised if we are the only ones looking at the larger picture to our loss.
|
|
Yotes
Forum Admin
Posts: 16,420
|
Post by Yotes on Feb 10, 2018 22:21:18 GMT
I have no doubt we match people in budget. We just get poor value. And im tired of watching it. I generally agree with this entirely, and have always thought so - for example our netminding triple this season won't be cheap. We shouldn't have to outspend the other teams to be doing a lot better than 7th. However stuff like not replacing Shalla for ages, and now not replacing Brisebois, has the whiff of saving wages. I don't buy the "there's no one out there" stuff either, it's nobody we're trying to find a replacement for, hardly difficult to be a better hockey player than that guy. Whether that's down to Neil Black and The Bermuda Triangle telling them they can't spend anymore on players, or just ineptitude from Moran and Neilson, I dunno. The lot of them can do one.
|
|
|
Post by Bagheera on Feb 10, 2018 22:56:01 GMT
I have no idea what this means. Does anybody else. Do they know something I don't? Is it a joke. Just seen it on Twitter and it's baffled me.
|
|