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Post by panthers4ever on Nov 9, 2011 6:48:50 GMT
Looking at the Video i would say Doucet will be looking at a 4 game ban at least
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5+game
Terry Kurtenbach
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Post by 5+game on Nov 9, 2011 8:49:46 GMT
I cant see any argument for not getting a ban there.
The only down side to whatever ban he gets is that 2 of the games are going to be against the Flyers and Caps, so he wont be missed that much.
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Doughnut
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Post by Doughnut on Nov 9, 2011 10:40:11 GMT
?? if it was that bad, why didn't he get a harsher punishment during the game?? At what point did Hanson decide to refer it? when he was watching the video of the game? did a coach moan?? we need the full story here orr do we have the wait to read the beer mats like usual? Rule book! I'm as much in favour of a published EIHL rule book as anyone, but if they follow anything like the IIHF rule book then they're entitled to review anything they want after a game. Of course, if Zajac was injured and Hanson was following the IIHF rule book he should have assessed a match penalty for injuring an opponent as a result of checking from behind (or to the head).
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Post by StolenAngelSlice on Nov 9, 2011 10:55:01 GMT
Looked like a vicious pre-meditated elbow to me which deserves at least the four games Lepine got last season, but we are talking Elite league discipline here aren't we. A little bit of an over exaggeration there. Yes it was a bad hit and chris111 has hit the nail on the head with his comment.
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5+game
Terry Kurtenbach
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Post by 5+game on Nov 9, 2011 11:21:51 GMT
I don't think he meant to hit him in the head at all, not even that convinced he caught him that bad in the head either from the video. you can see what he was trying to do but he got it wrong, basically he was trying to avoid running him from behind, so reached around with his arms and attempted to hit him hard, but got it slightly wrong What doesn't help though is that Zajac seems completely unware that he is playing hockey. Don't think it deserves a ban and 2+10 is about right for what actually happened. That just goes to show how differently people see things. For me it was a bad elbow, Im assuming that zajac wears a half visor and if he was not he could be minus a few teeth.
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Higgy
Les Strongman
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Post by Higgy on Nov 9, 2011 11:48:25 GMT
From seeing that video it looks to me that Doucet clearly raises his elbows when coming into the hit...im sure he didnt need to do that...probably just bore out of frustration and a rush of blood to the head
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Pies
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Post by Pies on Nov 9, 2011 11:55:26 GMT
It deserves a ban. Regardless of either players size. He went in with an elbow leading - no place for that in the modern game or even the past game. This isn't hockey going soft, this is making sure people dont get hurt. Fights are one thing where both know what theyre gettiong into but dirty plays like this have no place.
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Post by pantherdman on Nov 9, 2011 12:33:19 GMT
what ever the rules are (noone actually knows) then thats what should be followed. but the rules should be clearly written down.
Horrible elbow, blatant, clear, a definate ban 4 games+ is the precident for shoulder to head, this was worse. But, what was the lino looking at? and if Hanson saw it and called a penalty, why just 2+10?? you won't see a more blatant elbow than that.
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Doughnut
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Post by Doughnut on Nov 9, 2011 14:02:14 GMT
Horrible elbow, blatant, clear, a definate ban 4 games+ is the precident for shoulder to head, this was worse. But, what was the lino looking at? and if Hanson saw it and called a penalty, why just 2+10?? you won't see a more blatant elbow than that. I wouldn't say it's that blatant. It certainly looks bad, and from that angle and at that quality it looks like an elbow to the head. It's far from conclusive though, it could be an elbow to the chest. Again, I'm assuming IIHF rules here: Hanson called for checking from behind (if you look where he was on that video then it's an understandable call as he may not have seen the elbow from that angle). Given that we're calling for checking from behind, the options (at the discretion of the referee) are 2+10, 5+GM, or MP. If the player is injured then it should be a MP, no option, no 'discretion of the referee'. Can't tell from that video where the linos were so don't know what angle they'd have seen it from. I'm guessing that wherever they were and wherever they were looking they didn't see elbowing or they did and didn't report it to Hanson, or they did and he ignored them.
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Doughnut
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Post by Doughnut on Nov 9, 2011 14:06:07 GMT
Horrible elbow, blatant, clear, a definate ban 4 games+ is the precident for shoulder to head, this was worse. But, what was the lino looking at? and if Hanson saw it and called a penalty, why just 2+10?? you won't see a more blatant elbow than that. I wouldn't say it's that blatant. It certainly looks bad, and from that angle and at that quality it looks like an elbow to the head. It's far from conclusive though, it could be an elbow to the chest. Again, I'm assuming IIHF rules here: Hanson called for checking from behind (if you look where he was on that video then it's an understandable call as he may not have seen the elbow from that angle). Given that we're calling for checking from behind, the options (at the discretion of the referee) are 2+10, 5+GM, or MP. If the player is injured then it should be a MP, no option, no 'discretion of the referee'. Can't tell from that video where the linos were so don't know what angle they'd have seen it from. I'm guessing that wherever they were and wherever they were looking they didn't see elbowing or they did and didn't report it to Hanson, or they did and he ignored them. P.S. elbowing would have given the option of 2, 5+GM or MP. If Hanson thought at the time it only warranted the lesser of the 3 options available then the checking from behind call is more harsh than the elbowing anyway.
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Post by richard1969 on Nov 9, 2011 15:08:41 GMT
Without being over dramatic if by a freak occurrence the player who took the elbow to the head had fell awkwardly banged his head etc and died (it happens every so often)
Doucet would now be getting charged for manslaughter IMO - because that footage is horrible
And we would have new rules in place already more or less stopping contact from then on in
It is shockingly bad - just pleased that the player he elbowed wasnt badly hurt as a result
Like someone says above this is far worse than a straightforward fight between two guys
If a player did that to one of the Panthers players we would be going berserk on the night and Lepine would still be beating them up now
Think thats the worst challenge I have seen to date
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Doughnut
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Post by Doughnut on Nov 9, 2011 15:34:28 GMT
Without being over dramatic if by a freak occurrence the player who took the elbow to the head had fell awkwardly banged his head etc and died (it happens every so often) Doucet would now be getting charged for manslaughter IMO - because that footage is horrible And we would have new rules in place already more or less stopping contact from then on in It is shockingly bad - just pleased that the player he elbowed wasnt badly hurt as a result Like someone says above this is far worse than a straightforward fight between two guys If a player did that to one of the Panthers players we would be going berserk on the night and Lepine would still be beating them up now Think thats the worst challenge I have seen to date lol, I think he deserves a ban, but if that post is "without being over dramatic" then the dramatised version would be hilarious.
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seedy
Pat Casey
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Post by seedy on Nov 9, 2011 16:28:15 GMT
MANSLAUGHTER!
lol
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jester
Robert Lachowicz
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Post by jester on Nov 9, 2011 17:44:11 GMT
Check out the slo- mo bid of the incident on you tube. Not clear cut at all tough call for the officials
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Nov 9, 2011 18:00:30 GMT
Check out the slo- mo bid of the incident on you tube. Not clear cut at all tough call for the officials Terrible quality, can't see anything of the actual hit. For my 2p, I don't think he's trying to elbow him in the head, just trying to generate power in the hit and gets it wrong. Doesn't mean he shouldn't get suspended for it though. 4 games seems fair, I'd probably pass on the attempted manslaughter charge just for now. But once the Elite League have run it through SteelerScope, who knows what they'll be able to see...
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Post by panthersdave on Nov 9, 2011 18:09:29 GMT
Check out the slo- mo bid of the incident on you tube. Not clear cut at all tough call for the officials Terrible quality, can't see anything of the actual hit. For my 2p, I don't think he's trying to elbow him in the head, just trying to generate power in the hit and gets it wrong. Doesn't mean he shouldn't get suspended for it though. 4 games seems fair, I'd probably pass on the attempted manslaughter charge just for now. But once the Elite League have run it through SteelerScope, who knows what they'll be able to see... They will probably ban Lepine ;D
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BigLad
David Clarke
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Post by BigLad on Nov 9, 2011 19:11:12 GMT
I'm a fan of big hits, etc, but this was a bad hit.
He's gone in swinging his elbow...definate ban required, especially after the farcial bans Lepine got last season.
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Post by richard1969 on Nov 10, 2011 8:23:50 GMT
Guys I know it sounds dramatic but it is a serious point I am making about what you can and cannot get away with under the guise of sport Definition of manslaughter for legal terms: "when the defendant kills only with an intent to cause serious bodily harm" Look at the instant reaction of the fans as it happens - if that had been in the Arena we would have been going crazy - that was an elbow thrown with serious intent - it wasnt an accident You think I am joking about manslaughter charges but I am being serious - if through huge bad luck a fatality occurred in ice hockey as a result of a challenge like that and that footage was shown then the player would be in HUGE trouble We can handle it ok and discuss it one here more rationally because we know the player is ok by all accounts - but if he had died or ended up in a coma or paralysed etc I guarantee Doucet would have been arrested and be facing serious charges And we wouldnt be discussing it so calmly we would want him thrown out of the game for good let alone what the police decide to do with him You just cannot do something like that in ANY sport and get away with it I say again Doucet is very lucky that his opponent wasnt seriously hurt There is no place in sport or society in general for thuggery of that kind Even if he got a jury of 12 ice hockey fans he would have problems but with a jury of 12 normal members of society he would be in big trouble if the player was seriously injured or worse as a result of that For example: Every night in a towns around the UK punches get thrown in fights and 99.999% of the time everybody goes home ok and nothing comes of it .001% of the time a punch lands, somebody slips, bangs their head and a guy gets prosecuted for manslaughter - same punch as all th others just an unfortunate and unlikely result - tell me I am wrong ? ( Many people inside jail now for being unlucky you could argue) (Same punch as thousands of others have thrown but different result and hence police are all over them. Would be no different with that elbow IMO - because the player is ok and not seriously hurt it remains within the sport to decide what happens next) Serious injury or fatality and Doucet would be in big big trouble now - forget about a 4 match ban - it would be out of the EIHL hands and into the public domain
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Pies
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Post by Pies on Nov 10, 2011 8:35:10 GMT
Definition of manslaughter for legal terms: "when the defendant kills only with an intent to cause serious bodily harm" That elbow was meant to cause serious bodily harm IMO You think I am joking but I am being serious - if through huge bad luck a fatality occurred in ice hockey as a result of a challenge like that and that footage was shown then the player would be HUGE trouble We can handle it ok and discuss it one here more rationally because we know the player is ok by all accounts - but if he hd died or ended up in a comaa or paralysed I guarantee Doucet would have been arrested and be facing serious charges You just cannot do something like that in ANY sport and get away with it I say again Doucet is very lucky that his opponent wasnt seriously hurt There is no place in sport or society in general for thuggery of that kind What's he going to plea - not exactly self defence is it ? He wouldnt have a leg to stand on IMO Even if he got a jury of 12 ice hockey fans he would have problems but with a jury of 12 normal members of society he would be in big trouble if the player was seriously injured or worse as a result of that The problem is Richard, if we start going down those lines, fights and checking would be banned straightaway. When 2 players drop the gloves, it is with the intent to cause bodily harm. We've seen players get knocked out from fights - if they get hurt, should they start to go with charges of GBH and whatnot? I can remember seeing Marc Levers a couple of seasons ago getting cheap shotted by some thug (Kozlak I believe it was) that if it occured on the street in front of 5000 people, it would have been the simplest assault case of all time. Hell, Voth would be serving a life term for his cheap shot history (thats a joke, I like Voth!!) Its about respect and a gentlemans code of ethics - something that in the heat of the moment can go away. Doucet will have to face any punishment he gets - and that could be in the form of Kyle Bruce at some point down the line, who knows.
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Post by richard1969 on Nov 10, 2011 8:48:48 GMT
The problem is Richard, if we start going down those lines, fights and checking would be banned straightaway. When 2 players drop the gloves, it is with the intent to cause bodily harm. We've seen players get knocked out from fights - if they get hurt, should they start to go with charges of GBH and whatnot? I can remember seeing Marc Levers a couple of seasons ago getting cheap shotted by some thug (Kozlak I believe it was) that if it occured on the street in front of 5000 people, it would have been the simplest assault case of all time. Hell, Voth would be serving a life term for his cheap shot history (thats a joke, I like Voth!!) Its about respect and a gentlemans code of ethics - something that in the heat of the moment can go away. Doucet will have to face any punishment he gets - and that could be in the form of Kyle Bruce at some point down the line, who knows. I agree with you 100% But what I am saying is that whenever a sports person does something as blatant as that they risk being hung out to dry the second a serious injury or fatality occurs whatever sport they play The EIHL would not be able to protect the player - in fact I predict the player would be left to look after themselves and would need a very good lawyer Havent had time to fully trawl the internet but (within a minute found this link below). Many of you guys all know that in pub football some of the worst tackles you can imagine occur every Sunday morning - horrific. But tackling is a legal part of the sport. Again 99.9999% of the time no problem .00001% of the time you go to jail purely because of the unfortunate result of the challenge www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1255414/Footballer-jailed-horrific-tackle-left-victim-broken-leg.htmlSee above - a tackle breaks a leg - he gets 6 months (and they didnt even have video footage of it) (If the footballer had punched the guy and he died - he would have got even more time in jail for manslaughter- same as he would if it happened on the street) Judge said: "Sport doesnt excuse you from the law of normal society This is a deliberate act, a premeditated act,' he said. 'A football match gives no one any excuse to carry out wanton violence.' Pies you are right - when the guys drop the gloves they intend to cause harm but even though it is common place - they still would be in big trouble if something went badly wrong whatever the intent - at least when two guys drop the gloves they can argue self defence somewhat (not that great a plea though I would say)!! But Doucet has done what he did to someone who wasnt expecting it etc To a jury of 12 people who know nothing of the history of ice hockey - gentlemans code of ethics etc would be meaningless And secondly if a fatality occured like that from a challenge in GB almost overnight the rules of the sport would change and it would become far less contact than it already has You know how PC society has become - somehow ice hockey has slipped under the radar - bare knuckle fights were made illegal many years ago God knows how ice hockey gets away with it in all honesty (not that I am complaining mind you) But I do draw a line at chapshot elbows like that !
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Post by richard1969 on Nov 10, 2011 9:10:52 GMT
There you go:
"West Drayton's Darren Forwood, 21, was jailed for 28 months after admitting manslaughter of rival player Stephen Ritchie, 43, after killing him with a single punch during a bad-tempered amateur match against Brentford in West London."
Very unlucky single punch that was I have no doubt. Exactly what I am saying.
Result of the action dictates the punishment and decides whethe EIHL are the judge or society get involved.
Doucet should count himself very lucky that his opponent is ok.
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lee
David Clarke
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Post by lee on Nov 10, 2011 9:12:49 GMT
has anyone read "the code" there is a very good chapter in there about where the line is for actions on the ice and when it becomes a matter for the court.
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Post by richard1969 on Nov 10, 2011 9:14:19 GMT
has anyone read "the code" there is a very good chapter in there about where the line is for actions on the ice and when it becomes a matter for the court. What would it say about the Doucet elbow ?
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Post by NottinghamMatt on Nov 10, 2011 9:19:28 GMT
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Paul
Robert Lachowicz
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Post by Paul on Nov 10, 2011 9:22:13 GMT
Interesting isn't the word I'd use. After 31 years watching this sport you'd think I'd have been used to decisions like this by now but to call that a legal hit simply beggars belief. It also, in my mind, sets a very dangerous precedent. Right, I'm off to see if THF has melted.
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