koop11
Jade Galbraith
Posts: 181
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Post by koop11 on Dec 6, 2011 9:14:04 GMT
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Post by NottinghamMatt on Dec 6, 2011 9:23:11 GMT
In times gone by the Elite League has managed to continue despite teams dropping out and joining up. The likes of Manchester, Cardiff, Basingstoke, London, (smaller clubs financially) have struggled. You can put it down to poor marketing, mismanagement, local politics or substandard facilities but the fact of the matter is that some clubs are not in the position others are blessed to be in. To date the Elite League has somehow managed this situation. However, when a very successful club in Elite League era like Coventry announces that it is struggling to compete at this level then I think the league needs to urgently pay attention, especially as the same folk who own Coventry own Hull. I appreciate that the bigger arena clubs like Nottingham do not like this but I think a drop in import and even a wage cap needs to be seriously considered. At this rate there will be no teams left for play the arena teams and you’re left with the farce that was the Superleague in its later days. I understand Nottingham’s fans frustration when there is talk of wage caps and/or reducing import numbers but the financial climate is radically different to what is was a few years ago and is not likely to improve in the next several years as we head for a double dip recession. For many the Elite League today is unsustainable for a number of reasons. Watch this space. To play devils advocate (with a Panthers bias) what is your opinion then if Nottingham and Belfast (I can't include Sheffield based on us not being sure they break even!) then struggle to hit their own break even numbers as a result of the product they market being diluted? Is that Nottingham and Belfast's problem to deal with or should the rest of the league do something to make is sustainable for them? I for one would not be willing to pay my existing season ticket price for a lower standard of hockey. I would expect a reduction in price or I would pick and choose my games.
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Post by james1977 on Dec 6, 2011 9:39:23 GMT
Fully agree NottinghamMatt.
If the quality dropped below what it is now but the prices stayed as they are I'd probably spend more time watch NHL and catching the occasional Lions game for a live fix.
Interesting how short memories are in ice hockey. Remember when Cardiff, Sheffield etc were waving the cheque books about and Nottingham were under the cosh Neil Black insisted upon in order to right the ship? Remember Panthers getting tonked by other teams, week in, week out, purely making up the numbers in a manner that apparently would cause the fans of other teams to run to the hills?
Where was the out pourings of "something must be done to make the league stable and equally competitive" then? And please Cardiff, Coventry, whatever fans, don't come back with "enjoy your three team league" or whatnot. How about coming back with "hey if Panthers could manage to cope with tightening their belts and come out the otherside then so could we".
Unfortunately, if what some fans of other teams are saying is true, then Panthers fans are some of the few in the country that can look beyond the head long rush for immediate success and think long-term. Perhaps waiting since 1956 builds a kind of patience few other fans can grasp.
BTW, the Wales Online article is rather interesting. It seems to imply that because Sheffield have brought in Fulgrum then they must be in good financial health.
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Post by Rumpole on Dec 6, 2011 9:55:19 GMT
The problem for Panthers and the Giants is that all of the other teams could survive at a lower level because they don't have the expense of an arena to worry about. Sheffield could play out of Ice Sheffield. Panthers have nothing similar to fall back on, and I can't see Panthers' attendances staying at their current levels if the number of imports was slashed, making the NIC far too expensive to use. It did make me laugh reading the Wales Online article when it suggested Sheffield were "in fine financial fettle". It seems to me that they simply spend money they've not got and go under leaving the creditors to suffer.
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koop11
Jade Galbraith
Posts: 181
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Post by koop11 on Dec 6, 2011 9:57:40 GMT
In times gone by the Elite League has managed to continue despite teams dropping out and joining up. The likes of Manchester, Cardiff, Basingstoke, London, (smaller clubs financially) have struggled. You can put it down to poor marketing, mismanagement, local politics or substandard facilities but the fact of the matter is that some clubs are not in the position others are blessed to be in. To date the Elite League has somehow managed this situation. No doubt and I would imagine many other Nottingham fans would do the same. That however is happening now at many of the smaller clubs. Ticket prices across the league are raising yet teams are not competing with the likes of Belfast and Nottingham. I accept it would not be ideal for the arena teams to have their product diluted. Likewise it would for any team but the reality is that is already happening to us ‘smaller’ clubs. It’s a difficult one because arena teams are paying about 10K a week for the rent of their facilities and those prices of course far exceed those of the smaller teams, some of who do not pay rent at all. If there was an easy solution to the long existing problem then it would have been implemented by now. Until now the league has managed but I think the circumstances are now radically different. Do I personally wish for a reduction in import numbers – certainly not but at the cost of teams possibly going under again and again then so be it. Coventry in trouble is a wake up call of for the Elite League in that the current financial climate, that is set to get worse, is hurting this sport as it is to wider UK society. £16/£17 tickets are too high but clubs are facing much higher running costs in the wake of a tough economic climate. The outlook for the economy is worse and will be for several years before we’re close to being out of this mess. In this current climate, I see a model similar to the BNL (8 imports) needing to be strongly considered. Why not try it for a season or two. There is nothing stopping the Elite League increasing numbers in time. It’s that or the wage cap in my opinion and that alternative is far harder to police and therefore more likely to be abused. I understand where the likes of Nottingham are coming from, I really do. To date, the rest of the league has continued to play in a league that has no wage cap and a reasonable high import/UK player ratio. Perhaps its time the arena teams agree to some alternatives (I mean that sincerely and not as a dig at area teams). However, when a very successful club in Elite League era like Coventry announces that it is struggling to compete at this level then I think the league needs to urgently pay attention, especially as the same folk who own Coventry own Hull. I appreciate that the bigger arena clubs like Nottingham do not like this but I think a drop in import and even a wage cap needs to be seriously considered. At this rate there will be no teams left for play the arena teams and you’re left with the farce that was the Superleague in its later days. I understand Nottingham’s fans frustration when there is talk of wage caps and/or reducing import numbers but the financial climate is radically different to what is was a few years ago and is not likely to improve in the next several years as we head for a double dip recession. For many the Elite League today is unsustainable for a number of reasons. Watch this space. To play devils advocate (with a Panthers bias) what is your opinion then if Nottingham and Belfast (I can't include Sheffield based on us not being sure they break even!) then struggle to hit their own break even numbers as a result of the product they market being diluted? Is that Nottingham and Belfast's problem to deal with or should the rest of the league do something to make is sustainable for them? I for one would not be willing to pay my existing season ticket price for a lower standard of hockey. I would expect a reduction in price or I would pick and choose my games. No doubt and I would imagine many other Nottingham fans would do the same. That however is happening now at many of the smaller clubs. Ticket prices across the league are raising yet teams are not competing with the likes of Belfast and Nottingham. I accept it would not be ideal for the arena teams to have their product diluted. Likewise it would for any team but the reality is that is already happening to us ‘smaller’ clubs. It’s a difficult one because arena teams are paying about 10K a week for the rent of their facilities and those prices of course far exceed those of the smaller teams, some of who do not pay rent at all. If there was an easy solution to the long existing problem then it would have been implemented by now. Until now the league has managed but I think the circumstances are now radically different. Do I personally wish for a reduction in import numbers – certainly not but at the cost of teams possibly going under again and again then so be it. Coventry in trouble is a wake up call of for the Elite League in that the current financial climate, that is set to get worse, is hurting this sport as it is to wider UK society. £16/£17 tickets are too high but clubs are facing much higher running costs in the wake of a tough economic climate. The outlook for the economy is worse and will be for several years before we’re close to being out of this mess. In this current climate, I see a model similar to the BNL (8 imports) needing to be strongly considered. Why not try it for a season or two. There is nothing stopping the Elite League increasing numbers in time. It’s that or the wage cap in my opinion and that alternative is far harder to police and therefore more likely to be abused. I understand where the likes of Nottingham are coming from, I really do. To date, the rest of the league has continued to play in a league that has no wage cap and a reasonable high import/UK player ratio. Perhaps its time the arena teams agree to some alternatives (I mean that sincerely and not as a dig at area teams).
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koop11
Jade Galbraith
Posts: 181
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Post by koop11 on Dec 6, 2011 10:02:15 GMT
Fully agree NottinghamMatt. If the quality dropped below what it is now but the prices stayed as they are I'd probably spend more time watch NHL and catching the occasional Lions game for a live fix. Interesting how short memories are in ice hockey. Remember when Cardiff, Sheffield etc were waving the cheque books about and Nottingham were under the cosh Neil Black insisted upon in order to right the ship? Remember Panthers getting tonked by other teams, week in, week out, purely making up the numbers in a manner that apparently would cause the fans of other teams to run to the hills? Where was the out pourings of "something must be done to make the league stable and equally competitive" then? And please Cardiff, Coventry, whatever fans, don't come back with "enjoy your three team league" or whatnot. How about coming back with "hey if Panthers could manage to cope with tightening their belts and come out the otherside then so could we". Unfortunately, if what some fans of other teams are saying is true, then Panthers fans are some of the few in the country that can look beyond the head long rush for immediate success and think long-term. Perhaps waiting since 1956 builds a kind of patience few other fans can grasp. BTW, the Wales Online article is rather interesting. It seems to imply that because Sheffield have brought in Fulgrum then they must be in good financial health. I understand what you are saying but the economic climate then was not what it is now. Nor was the player budget during the Heiniken Cup era as import numbers were far less and a large portion of UK players were semi pro.
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doug
Robert Lachowicz
Posts: 586
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Post by doug on Dec 6, 2011 10:08:18 GMT
The problem for Panthers and the Giants is that all of the other teams could survive at a lower level because they don't have the expense of an arena to worry about. Sheffield could play out of Ice Sheffield. Panthers have nothing similar to fall back on, and I can't see Panthers' attendances staying at their current levels if the number of imports was slashed, making the NIC far too expensive to use. It did make me laugh reading the Wales Online article when it suggested Sheffield were "in fine financial fettle". It seems to me that they simply spend money they've not got and go under leaving the creditors to suffer. Steelers can not play every game at Ice Sheffield. End of story! Devils need 1600 to break even, what makes you think Steelers would manage on less?
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Post by NottinghamMatt on Dec 6, 2011 10:18:21 GMT
No doubt and I would imagine many other Nottingham fans would do the same. That however is happening now at many of the smaller clubs. Ticket prices across the league are raising yet teams are not competing with the likes of Belfast and Nottingham. I accept it would not be ideal for the arena teams to have their product diluted. Likewise it would for any team but the reality is that is already happening to us ‘smaller’ clubs. It’s a difficult one because arena teams are paying about 10K a week for the rent of their facilities and those prices of course far exceed those of the smaller teams, some of who do not pay rent at all. If there was an easy solution to the long existing problem then it would have been implemented by now. Until now the league has managed but I think the circumstances are now radically different. Do I personally wish for a reduction in import numbers – certainly not but at the cost of teams possibly going under again and again then so be it. Coventry in trouble is a wake up call of for the Elite League in that the current financial climate, that is set to get worse, is hurting this sport as it is to wider UK society. £16/£17 tickets are too high but clubs are facing much higher running costs in the wake of a tough economic climate. The outlook for the economy is worse and will be for several years before we’re close to being out of this mess. In this current climate, I see a model similar to the BNL (8 imports) needing to be strongly considered. Why not try it for a season or two. There is nothing stopping the Elite League increasing numbers in time. It’s that or the wage cap in my opinion and that alternative is far harder to police and therefore more likely to be abused. I understand where the likes of Nottingham are coming from, I really do. To date, the rest of the league has continued to play in a league that has no wage cap and a reasonable high import/UK player ratio. Perhaps its time the arena teams agree to some alternatives (I mean that sincerely and not as a dig at area teams). So basically well that's what's happening to us now, so why shouldn't it happen to you? Well Microsoft and Apple have been successful now as businesses for years, so maybe they should take a hit and allow Joe Bloggs PC's to make some money now....
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Post by james1977 on Dec 6, 2011 10:38:19 GMT
Could folk use the comment "in the current financial crisis" a little less as some sort of catch all excuse?
Let's be honest here, many teams displayed gross financial ineptitude when the economy was booming, one of said teams being an apparently "I'm alright Jack" arena team.
How much have events relating to issues with the BBT pre-season affected crowd numbers. What about Ragan's continuing involvement after finding a new you to play with last season? How many fans are staying away on principle?
How about Coventry? Are you honestly telling me taking on Hull has had no effect at all? How many Coventry fans are taking stands on principle with regards 'their' team supporting a rival. And please, don't hive me "separate businesses, separate funding". Would Coventry have needed to make this plea had money not been spent hailing out Hull?
A point of order though. Were "in the current financial crisis" such an overwhelming catch all wouldn't all teams be suffering with regards their costs, more so the teams playing out of expensive, city centre located arenas?
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Post by pantherfan007 on Dec 6, 2011 12:01:13 GMT
We could really do with a Panorama special on this farce they call EIHL. Would be fascinating to see under the covers.
I'm glad this has happened. Get rid of the deadwood. Things always get worse before getting better.
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Post by Rumpole on Dec 6, 2011 12:06:13 GMT
Steelers can not play every game at Ice Sheffield. End of story! Devils need 1600 to break even, what makes you think Steelers would manage on less? I'm talking about their ability to play at a lower level with less cost involved, something that's not available to the Panthers
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5+game
Terry Kurtenbach
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Post by 5+game on Dec 6, 2011 12:09:02 GMT
We could really do with a Panorama special on this farce they call EIHL. Would be fascinating to see under the covers. I'm glad this has happened. Get rid of the deadwood. Things always get worse before getting better. Unfortunately getting rid of the deadwood would mean a team league
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Post by james1977 on Dec 6, 2011 12:17:39 GMT
Steelers can not play every game at Ice Sheffield. End of story! Devils need 1600 to break even, what makes you think Steelers would manage on less? I'm talking about their ability to play at a lower level with less cost involved, something that's not available to the Panthers Really? Panthers couldn't play out of the NIC whilst playing lower quality hockey? Whilst I've stated I wouldn't be interested Panthers have managed before. What the "we can jump to EPL" crowd might be forgetting is that Guildford and Manchester are the 'big boys' in that league, what makes you think they'd want EIHL cast-offs?
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koop11
Jade Galbraith
Posts: 181
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Post by koop11 on Dec 6, 2011 12:20:35 GMT
No doubt and I would imagine many other Nottingham fans would do the same. That however is happening now at many of the smaller clubs. Ticket prices across the league are raising yet teams are not competing with the likes of Belfast and Nottingham. I accept it would not be ideal for the arena teams to have their product diluted. Likewise it would for any team but the reality is that is already happening to us ‘smaller’ clubs. It’s a difficult one because arena teams are paying about 10K a week for the rent of their facilities and those prices of course far exceed those of the smaller teams, some of who do not pay rent at all. If there was an easy solution to the long existing problem then it would have been implemented by now. Until now the league has managed but I think the circumstances are now radically different. Do I personally wish for a reduction in import numbers – certainly not but at the cost of teams possibly going under again and again then so be it. Coventry in trouble is a wake up call of for the Elite League in that the current financial climate, that is set to get worse, is hurting this sport as it is to wider UK society. £16/£17 tickets are too high but clubs are facing much higher running costs in the wake of a tough economic climate. The outlook for the economy is worse and will be for several years before we’re close to being out of this mess. In this current climate, I see a model similar to the BNL (8 imports) needing to be strongly considered. Why not try it for a season or two. There is nothing stopping the Elite League increasing numbers in time. It’s that or the wage cap in my opinion and that alternative is far harder to police and therefore more likely to be abused. I understand where the likes of Nottingham are coming from, I really do. To date, the rest of the league has continued to play in a league that has no wage cap and a reasonable high import/UK player ratio. Perhaps its time the arena teams agree to some alternatives (I mean that sincerely and not as a dig at area teams). So basically well that's what's happening to us now, so why shouldn't it happen to you? Well Microsoft and Apple have been successful now as businesses for years, so maybe they should take a hit and allow Joe Bloggs PC's to make some money now.... I appreciate the point you are trying to make but that’s a pretty poor comparison. Microsoft and Apple are not playing in a professional sports league that clearly requires more that 2 organisations to compete. Let’s try and be sensible with our analogies. If it’s happening to several teams to a point we will lose enough teams at this level to leave a league of about 4 or 5 clubs then yes, I think the arena teams need to consider amendments to the league that will help to support a more financially stable league and make it more competitive both on and off the ice. The potential alternative would in my opinion hurt arena teams more in the long run (playing the same teams week in week out). There needs to be negotiations and some middle ground between the rink teams and the arena teams. One can argue this has gone on for years now and its still the format we’ve got but this economic crisis, despite some people disregarding its impact, is biting and will bite harder in years to come. You can ignore it all they want but its happening. Some may wish to turn a blind eye but others cannot.
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Post by NottinghamMatt on Dec 6, 2011 12:59:17 GMT
I appreciate the point you are trying to make but that’s a pretty poor comparison. Microsoft and Apple are not playing in a professional sports league that clearly requires more that 2 organisations to compete. Let’s try and be sensible with our analogies. If it’s happening to several teams to a point we will lose enough teams at this level to leave a league of about 4 or 5 clubs then yes, I think the arena teams need to consider amendments to the league that will help to support a more financially stable league and make it more competitive both on and off the ice. The potential alternative would in my opinion hurt arena teams more in the long run (playing the same teams week in week out). There needs to be negotiations and some middle ground between the rink teams and the arena teams. One can argue this has gone on for years now and its still the format we’ve got but this economic crisis, despite some people disregarding its impact, is biting and will bite harder in years to come. You can ignore it all they want but its happening. Some may wish to turn a blind eye but others cannot. OK then, I used an extreme example to make my point, pro sports wise take the Premier League or any level of football for that matter. Some teams have more money than others and sign a team to suit, the football league are intending to bring in financial fair play, whereby to spend it you have to make it. Maybe something like that could be effective in the EIHL? Didn't we go with 12 imports the other year as it was felt it would benefit the smaller clubs who couldn't attract the British players required? Should a reduced import limit be imposed and prices not drop in Nottingham I would expect a significant number of high level Brits to arrive to keep us at the standard expected for that price then what? No one is ignoring it, just commenting on the effect that the apparent only solution will have on our organisation but the negatives of that appear to being ignored.
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Post by elliottstanley on Dec 6, 2011 14:23:15 GMT
So some teams will have to join the 'middle order' of the EIHL as a result of spending within their means. Realistically what does that mean? Because as I look at it right now there were only really 3 teams who at the outset of the season looked likely to be in with a title shout and they are Nottingham, Belfast and Sheffield. Coventry had already started to cut their cloth accordingly, as had Cardiff. I don’t see Braehead, Hull, Edinburgh, Fife and Dundee complaining that they are pretty much consigned to the fact that they stand a slim to none chance of the league title before a puck is dropped. I would contest that Coventry and Cardiff have willingly joined that gang this year by cutting their costs and Sheffield should (!) be doing the same based on their financial situation.
That leaves Nottingham and Belfast. Lets be frank, even in a two horse race I wouldn’t have money on the former, as we’d surely find a way to mess it up. Even if it was a two horse race that is hardly the end of the EIHL is it? I’m sure teams packed with cheaper, perhaps less skilful / sought after players could still give teams with players of higher pedigree several good games and get the better of them – just as we’ve seen happen for many years (we certainly have at Panthers!). If supporters stopped going because teams had no chance of the league title we’d have half a league already and would have had for some years.
I’m just not getting how having a perceived ‘elite’ within the league heralds the death knell for the EIHL. There are plenty of examples of sports leagues which have such an ‘elite’ yet still manage to continue to entertain, pull in crowds and operate successfully; and many don’t have the additional carrot of end of season play offs to retain interest for the aforementioned ‘middle order’.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that some sort of middle ground isn’t needed but at the same time the sort of hysteria that sets in every time we hear about more poor business practice by those who own EIHL teams is a huge overreaction in my opinion. We’ve been hearing about the ‘end of the EIHL’ for many years now and its sensationalism. Allied to that there needs to be some sort of acceptance that sports teams, in all sports, are nearly always in a semi-precarious state financially, that’s the way of the sporting world now.
Answer remains the same....governance, governance, governance!
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Post by pantherfan007 on Dec 6, 2011 14:27:30 GMT
Spanish football league is a two team league in terms of the title. The other clubs contest the cup and European places.
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Post by elliottstanley on Dec 6, 2011 14:31:56 GMT
I'm talking about their ability to play at a lower level with less cost involved, something that's not available to the Panthers Really? Panthers couldn't play out of the NIC whilst playing lower quality hockey? Whilst I've stated I wouldn't be interested Panthers have managed before. What the "we can jump to EPL" crowd might be forgetting is that Guildford and Manchester are the 'big boys' in that league, what makes you think they'd want EIHL cast-offs? Quite. I’d love to see John Hepburn’s face reading about all these EIHL teams who are just going to jump into the EPL at a click of the fingers. Neil Morris had to jump through hoops and even then it was hardly harmonious approval that saw Phoenix join the EPL – took him nearly 3 years to know he had the safety net there. There is no way the ‘big boys’ of the EPL are going to welcome new teams who a) add to the travel required and b) reduce the chances of silverware.
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doug
Robert Lachowicz
Posts: 586
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Post by doug on Dec 6, 2011 16:01:57 GMT
Steelers can not play every game at Ice Sheffield. End of story! Devils need 1600 to break even, what makes you think Steelers would manage on less? I'm talking about their ability to play at a lower level with less cost involved, something that's not available to the Panthers I appreciate what you're saying, but, Sheffield already has a team in the EPL. On other points, in spite of the fact that last years crowds were decent in Cardiff, a lot of fans will be discouraged, like a lot of Steeler's fans, by the people at the helm.(The BBT doesn't help either).
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koop11
Jade Galbraith
Posts: 181
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Post by koop11 on Dec 6, 2011 17:26:27 GMT
I don’t think anyone is calling for the end of the Elite League, just for them to consider alternatives formats that will help sustain it. It’s great that Nottingham have a model to sustain a competitive club at this level and that is down to a number of factors. Black has clearly done a good job which I hope in time he can replicate in Braehead.
However, the majority of the league is not blessed with city centre purpose built facilities that are large, comfortable, and accessible, therefore inviting the crowds and sponsors. The Devils, for example, have the complete opposite. I don’t doubt for one minute that mismanagement has played its part in Cardiff and certainly the high profile public battles that previous owners have had with the local council and previous sponsors hasn’t helped.
However, the point is that for the majority of the league, the set up in the Elite is unsustainable at this level today if you don’t have what Nottingham has. Yes the Capitals, Devils, Vipers, etc have this all the time - who cares. All of a sudden though, Coventry, the most successful club in Elite League history is in trouble. Team owners need to get around the table and sort this out for next season and thereafter. I feel middle ground is the only way this will work in the long run.
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Post by james1977 on Dec 6, 2011 18:20:39 GMT
Koop11 - This position Coventry are in, do you think they'd have been in it if they hadn't taken on Hull?
A simple yes/no answer please, no convoluted of tale of woe ending in "arena teams did it" or "Nottingham had success handed to them on a plate".
As I have said previously and as has seemingly been brushed over, Neil Black enforced a belt tightening whilst Panthers moved to the NIC. So the team was uncompetitive compared to the likes of Sheffield, Cardiff and Coventry but at the same time had to attract numbers to afford the £10k a night rental fees.
Arenas may be nice but they are also a millstone, yet Panthers managed playing out of said millstone whilst being way off the mark with regards player quality compared to the then cheque book flashers at Cardiff and Sheffield.
Cut your suit to match your cloth and form a solid base to build upon. Yes you'll be uncompetitive for awhile but hey, we've been there and are still here. Of course the issue is that other fans can't cope with being uncompetitive for awhile, as Panthers fans had to, they just want to drag everyone down and be competitive in a poor quality league.
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koop11
Jade Galbraith
Posts: 181
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Post by koop11 on Dec 6, 2011 19:45:29 GMT
I don't know the answer to your question. Nor do you for that matter so please don't respond with tales of Coventry are only in this position becuase they purchased a team not fit to stand alone in this league.
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Post by Spoonerdudes on Dec 6, 2011 19:48:59 GMT
Koop11 - This position Coventry are in, do you think they'd have been in it if they hadn't taken on Hull? A simple yes/no answer please, no convoluted of tale of woe ending in "arena teams did it" or "Nottingham had success handed to them on a plate". As I have said previously and as has seemingly been brushed over, Neil Black enforced a belt tightening whilst Panthers moved to the NIC. So the team was uncompetitive compared to the likes of Sheffield, Cardiff and Coventry but at the same time had to attract numbers to afford the £10k a night rental fees. Arenas may be nice but they are also a millstone, yet Panthers managed playing out of said millstone whilst being way off the mark with regards player quality compared to the then cheque book flashers at Cardiff and Sheffield. Cut your suit to match your cloth and form a solid base to build upon. Yes you'll be uncompetitive for awhile but hey, we've been there and are still here. Of course the issue is that other fans can't cope with being uncompetitive for awhile, as Panthers fans had to, they just want to drag everyone down and be competitive in a poor quality league. At the time the Panthers moved to the NIC the Blaze and the Devils were both in the BNL....where the costs were extremely lower than they were in the ISL !
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Post by pantherdman on Dec 6, 2011 19:55:23 GMT
'If you make more than you spend you will survive.' Print this off and stick in on the office wall.
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Post by marshalfish on Dec 6, 2011 20:31:02 GMT
Spanish football league is a two team league in terms of the title. The other clubs contest the cup and European places. A fair few motor racing series (Caterham & Porche to name a couple) operate a defined 2 tier championship system. The "lower" level cars still race with the big boys, and occasionally surprise them, but have a defined championship of their own to compete in with other cars of similar speed. I know it's not the same, but surely something of this type might work?
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