Milkman™
Les Strongman
Always Delivers
Posts: 5,300
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Post by Milkman™ on Oct 2, 2006 8:38:15 GMT
Patronise whatever
You used images and logos without permission
As for posting fights, have i ever done that?
This is what i do for a living, not a hobby to get my 5 mins of fame
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Post by belak on Oct 2, 2006 8:40:26 GMT
On the images issue, I can't go too deep into the PanthersOnline scenario at the moment because it would be unfair to those involved in what's going on at the moment, but let me tell you this: We have done nothing but promote a good image for the Nottingham Panthers.... so good in fact that we believe we played a part in making the new website better. Individuals may not like us, and we have no problem with that, I don't like orange juice but the majority of the world does. On the whole, PanthersOnline has been a massive success to date and whatever the outcome of the current situation, we will not die. We have a responsibility to our readers all over the ice hockey world, not only Panthers fans, and we have several new 'non-image based' uploads that will go up in the weeks to come. If you don't like us the message is simple: Don't log on. If you like us or are a regular visitor, thanks for the support and keep coming back.... there's plenty more to come. Martin So I take it by your comment that you didn't have permission to use Panthers' images?
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Post by keefe a.k.a Donk on Oct 2, 2006 9:16:37 GMT
I was having a chat with someone at the hull match, who after only a couple of mins made it very clear as to why the club are taking this stance! Its not just the club who is hurt from people making illegal images public. As was mentioned at the weekend... you imagine a meet the players night, where many people turn up with pictures for the players to sign. Now, if panthersonline (sorry to pick on you, but you are the main source of pictures for which the club make no revenue on) have pictures of players on their website, and lets say 20 people print off pictures from that site to take and get signed, thats 20 pictures that the club make no money on, thats 20 pictures an official photographer makes no money on. Ice hockey is a small sport, and money is tight, the panthers are lucky to be well off, but only through neil blacks prudent approach to financial matters within the club. The panthers need the photo sales, they need the revenue it produces, the photographers need the revenue, its their livelyhood... I understand the fustration this causes to us fans, and i understand how we only want to spread the word, but i also understand how in doing so, we are in some small way killing part of the sport through lost revenue.
I think this will always be 6 of one half a dozen of another, but unforuntaly of fortunatly depending on which side of the fence you sit, the rule wont change and its here to stay... so like ZT accept it and get on with it. If you want to take pics and share with your mates, fine do so, if you wanna take a few pics of you with the players in the pub, then fine, and feel free to share them. But, when it comes to pictures that would otherwise be classed as the sort you expect to be sold then kept them out of the public domain.
Hopefully ive made some sense.... it was all a bit of a blur to me too before the weekend, but once it was explained it was all a little clearer.
One thing though, lets please keep away from personal attacks... it is of noones doing on here that this has happened, so please lets not throw muck at each other, and lets try not to throw muck at the club, as all they are doing is safe garding the future of the club and the future of our entertainment.
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Post by lps on Oct 2, 2006 9:33:27 GMT
This is off topic, but If you want to see some pictures of the Panthers v Devils game then go to Match report and pictures. You can click on the pictures at the bottom to enlarge them. There are some good action shots of Lindsay, Myers as well as the Mcaslan/Voth fight. It is from the Cardiff Devils official website, so must be ok
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Post by dad on Oct 2, 2006 9:49:43 GMT
I am 100% in agreement with all Therapy, and Keefe have said. I admire Panthermick for his classy response too. Pity those from the Panthersonline could not show the same. Give your egos a rest chaps eh?
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Post by martinski83 on Oct 2, 2006 10:17:54 GMT
This is a message from MARTIN from PanthersOnline.
This is a formal apology from me to Therapy. He sent a classy PM explaining his posts, and I have replied.
I can't go to deep into the PanthersOnline image situation, which you're taking as 'we didn't have permission'.
We are not egocentric (believe it or not), we are trying to create a bigger, better picture of the Panthers. We are Panthers fans, We love the Panthers and we're doing our damnedest to put accross a website for ice hockey fans who want more.
If it turns out that we can no longer use images than so be it, but be rest assured that there is more to this story than you think. All will be clear soon, both Rob and myself assure you of that. It would be unprofessional to go into further detail at this moment.
In the meantime watch out for more non picture based content as we have ideas in the pipeline that we were due to phase in at a later date, we have now pushed that forward so expect a major rethink soon.
Once again, apologies to therapy, he was the bigger man and came to me and I owe him for that. i took exception to a comment and I should know better. Tail between legs.
Martin
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Post by dad on Oct 2, 2006 10:28:55 GMT
Don't forget the name 'Nottingham Panthers' is copywritten too!
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Post by Rob #12 on Oct 2, 2006 10:39:46 GMT
This is Rob's wife 'fluffyfred' posting:
Rest assured, Rob does not have a big ego or anything that others may think of him.
What I will say though is that I wish people would stop using personal attacks. Rob and I work full time, we have a 3 year old Son who at the moment is quite a handful. Doing Panthersonline takes up quite a chunk of Rob's time but as it's something he's enjoying doing, I let him get on with it.
It's not that Rob has a big ego, it's just that something he had worked hard on is constantly being slated and the one thing that most people visited the site for has been taken away.
It's upset him and it's affecting things not just for him, but for me too. Because of our jobs and having no people in our families willing to help out apart from one night a week, we have enough on our plates to contend with, without people constantly having a pop.
I understand that about how it affects Dave Page's income etc which is why we have and will continue to buy photos from him. The thing is, we don't actually have that much money ourselves at the moment but couldn't pass on the signed team photo opportunity which has pride of place on our fireplace.
Also, when reading things on a forum like this, it can give a different perception of what someone's personality is really like. If you actually met Rob, you would know he's a different person to what many of you think of him, as is Martin.
There are many of you on here who I dislike on here but I am fully aware that if I was to meet you face to face at a match or something, you could come across as a different person altogether. Just a little something to think about don't you think?
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Post by keefe a.k.a Donk on Oct 2, 2006 12:47:47 GMT
i would just like to make a final point, just in case i have been included in this branded bracket of people purposfully making an attack at panthersonline. My point was not aimed at panthersonline, there was a mention of you as you are one of the only panthers unofficial websites that has images on it, my point was mearly that now after conversation i understand the panthers stand point on the matter.
Sorry i felt it needed that i should try to clear my name from any muck slinging... not a problem with panthersonline... simply making my point at the situation as a whole.
Be it beyond my right to really say, but is there any chance the mods can now lock this thread as it seems everyone has said their piece and now kissed and made up??? lol
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Doughnut
Forum Admin
mmmmmm ... Doughnuts
Posts: 5,072
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Post by Doughnut on Oct 2, 2006 13:16:35 GMT
Be it beyond my right to really say, but is there any chance the mods can now lock this thread as it seems everyone has said their piece and now kissed and made up??? lol I think the kissing and making up is what stopped it getting locked earlier Some people may still have something to say on the matter, so I'll leave it open for now. If everyone has said their piece, the thread will just drop down the page anyway.
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Post by martinski83 on Oct 2, 2006 13:31:32 GMT
I'm happy for this to be locked.
*We are undertaking measures to improve our website. *We realise this IS NOT a personal attack on us. *We hope to resolve the images issue soon. *And my major beef, that was with therapy, has now been cleared up via the PM system and we intend to take our sensible thoughts and discussion to msn.
Martin
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MP
Paul Adey
Hail hurts and rain is cold. Summer in the mountains
Posts: 6,811
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Post by MP on Oct 2, 2006 14:54:26 GMT
Perhaps this is the right time to close this subject then - for now.
I don't think anyone has any issue with safeguarding copyright on photos but image rights are more contentious. Like many things in life, they'd benefit from an application of common sense if problems are to be avoided in the future.
One thing is for sure, the issue won't go away as such. The world today is becoming dominated by the transmission of information and images and the supply of the technology to do it and everyone will have to adjust to it. Peoples' expectations are changing and being encouraged to change by the supply of all this technology. Hollywood tried to stem the tide in the film industry but failed. I doubt anyone else will be anymore successful in the long term.
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Post by Rob #12 on Oct 2, 2006 15:07:03 GMT
I haven't said all I need to on this......there is much more to this than people on this thread seem to know.
Throwing around comments without knowing all the facts has happened a lot in this thread so far. I understand what Therapy is trying to say but the Panthers Online situation if different from the examples he is using.
I really hope no-one thinks I/we are are being ego-tistical. The only reason I bother to post my photos I because everyone deserves to have an alternative, though you will always find me supporting the like of Dave Page and the official channels. I am no where near the quality of a pro, but I would like to think my photos of decent quality, I don't post them otherwise.
As for Keefe's reply, all my images are purposely low-res, so people cannot print off decent sized photos to get them signed. I cannot stop people saving them by highlighting the picture, but no one will be taking them to players meets as they won't be good quality. Anything that wants taking to fan meets should always be Dave Page or official pictures only. So that argument doesn't apply here either.
One final note, some maybe aware I take pics for the Supporters Club, which I would like to think would have the clubs permission. I have not had this confirmed by Gary, no different from the level of permission I had for Panthers Online. So my photos, will likely always have the clubs blessing one way or another, where they are allowed to be used is just up in the air at the mo.
Rob
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MP
Paul Adey
Hail hurts and rain is cold. Summer in the mountains
Posts: 6,811
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Post by MP on Oct 2, 2006 15:54:34 GMT
As for Keefe's reply, all my images are purposely low-res, so people cannot print off decent sized photos to get them signed. I cannot stop people saving them by highlighting the picture, but no one will be taking them to players meets as they won't be good quality. Anything that wants taking to fan meets should always be Dave Page or official pictures only. So that argument doesn't apply here either. That's fair comment Rob and a sensible approach. If the club wishes to make money on the photographs there's nothing to stop them announcing that signing sessions will be on official goods only. This seems to be another illustration of how the use of the internet is misunderstood in many organizations - low resolution pictures just don't make quality prints - no threat to the official picture trade there.
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Post by Rob #12 on Oct 2, 2006 16:04:14 GMT
As for Keefe's reply, all my images are purposely low-res, so people cannot print off decent sized photos to get them signed. I cannot stop people saving them by highlighting the picture, but no one will be taking them to players meets as they won't be good quality. Anything that wants taking to fan meets should always be Dave Page or official pictures only. So that argument doesn't apply here either. That's fair comment Rob and a sensible approach. If the club wishes to make money on the photographs there's nothing to stop them announcing that signing sessions will be on official goods only. This seems to be another illustration of how the use of the internet is misunderstood in many organizations - low resolution pictures just don't make quality prints - no threat to the official picture trade there. Ah but what if want pictures of my own signing But I see your point, I have pulled out lots of my own I want players to sign, some of the best I have taken. The main reason is, all my Dave Page ones are already signed
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MP
Paul Adey
Hail hurts and rain is cold. Summer in the mountains
Posts: 6,811
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Post by MP on Oct 2, 2006 16:39:33 GMT
Ah but what if want pictures of my own signing Interesting question - seems the club is in danger of facing in two directions on the matter. Presumably as it's ok to take photos for your personal use then you can print them out in high res and get them signed. As long as any photos posted on the internet were low res and unsuitable for printing then no one else benefits from your efforts and robs the club of income from official photos etc.
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Post by keefe a.k.a Donk on Oct 2, 2006 16:50:20 GMT
As for Keefe's reply, all my images are purposely low-res, so people cannot print off decent sized photos to get them signed. I cannot stop people saving them by highlighting the picture, but no one will be taking them to players meets as they won't be good quality. Anything that wants taking to fan meets should always be Dave Page or official pictures only. So that argument doesn't apply here either. Rob Hey.... hold your horses there a second... just to reiterate what i said in the later post... my point wasnt directed at panthersonline, i made sure to make that clear, and i only mentioned you as you were the only website i could think of at the time (you should be happy that the 1st unofficial panthers site that comes into my head is yours!), if i caused offence by using you as an example then im sorry.... but please understand my comments were general and in no way uni-directional towards any one person or persons. I havent tried to reproduce one of your pictures posted on the website, therefore i havent realised that they are low-res... if that is the case then well done, but like i keep saying, my point was simply that in some cases, players and management are seeing alot of the same "unofficial" pictures turning up, and i would hazard a guess that this is one resulting factor in the blanket ruling over the broadcasting of pictures.....
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Post by ted on Oct 2, 2006 16:56:13 GMT
At the end of the day if people do choose to flout the rules put in place (not that anyone is!, christ do we have the have a disclaimer saying 'I didnt mean you' in every post?) then panthers will just crack down harder and say 'no photos whatsoever'
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Post by Rob #12 on Oct 2, 2006 17:24:53 GMT
As for Keefe's reply, all my images are purposely low-res, so people cannot print off decent sized photos to get them signed. I cannot stop people saving them by highlighting the picture, but no one will be taking them to players meets as they won't be good quality. Anything that wants taking to fan meets should always be Dave Page or official pictures only. So that argument doesn't apply here either. Rob Hey.... hold your horses there a second... just to reiterate what i said in the later post... my point wasnt directed at panthersonline, i made sure to make that clear, and i only mentioned you as you were the only website i could think of at the time (you should be happy that the 1st unofficial panthers site that comes into my head is yours!), if i caused offence by using you as an example then im sorry.... but please understand my comments were general and in no way uni-directional towards any one person or persons. I havent tried to reproduce one of your pictures posted on the website, therefore i havent realised that they are low-res... if that is the case then well done, but like i keep saying, my point was simply that in some cases, players and management are seeing alot of the same "unofficial" pictures turning up, and i would hazard a guess that this is one resulting factor in the blanket ruling over the broadcasting of pictures..... Don't get me wrong mate, I understand what your saying and GM himself has expressed the same fears. I was careful to explain my POV to him and thought I would do the same back to you. I only used your name as it was you that posted the information which is valid and you aren't the first one to think about it. No offence was taken Keefe and I hope not was recived your end. I wasn't having a pop.
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Post by keefe a.k.a Donk on Oct 2, 2006 17:39:17 GMT
okey dokey.... its all good
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PeteW
Greg Hadden
Ageing anorak
Posts: 1,522
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Post by PeteW on Oct 2, 2006 21:13:48 GMT
However someone using an image of mine without first seeking permission is theft (pure and simple), and that is the attitude that the Panthers and league are taking on this. Is this permission ongoing? By that I mean that if I asked the photographer originally if he would allow me to use the odd photo that he had taken, do I have to ask at the beginning of each season, when the league may have a new name/sponsor, or does the original permission still hold? The reason I ask is that I use a player photo for the profile pages on my website. Over the years I have asked several "official" photographers, Mike Smith, Chris Fielding and Dave Page all spring to mind. All have kindly agreed for me to use them providing I include a link to their website, which I have been more than happy to do. I have photos from the 50's who I have no idea who the photographer was and many over the years and certainly from earlier decades are of questionable quality. But the quality of individual images isn't the point. I wanted to put our team's history on the internet and there's no financial interest on my part whatsoever.
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Higgy
Les Strongman
Posts: 5,293
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Post by Higgy on Oct 2, 2006 22:35:32 GMT
Just out of curisity if a video of a fight from a game was posted on youtube but no link from this site (or the elite forum) was made and you just had to type in what you were looking for (i.e voth fight), surely that cant get this site into trouble?
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Milkman™
Les Strongman
Always Delivers
Posts: 5,300
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Post by Milkman™ on Oct 3, 2006 8:56:14 GMT
Just out of curisity if a video of a fight from a game was posted on youtube but no link from this site (or the elite forum) was made and you just had to type in what you were looking for (i.e voth fight), surely that cant get this site into trouble? The whole area of refereing links a grey one to put it midly. However in that situation then no blame can be placed here or the elitr forums. GM could quite easily report the videos on youtube and have them removed (although he would probably get laughed at more than normal). Contrary to poular belief I want fans taking pictures and sharing with their mates, as long as they are not selling or using them without proper permission or paying the rights owners the 20-50% that i have to for their share. The whole issue of image rights was written before the advent of digital, there is currently a commision looking at the whole rights and privacy thing for journalists, watch this space. However if you have any 'proper' celeb pictures on your phone send me a copy and ill try sell it for ya some are worth upto £4000 at the moment for the right celeb (all for a measly 20% of course)
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Doughnut
Forum Admin
mmmmmm ... Doughnuts
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Post by Doughnut on Oct 3, 2006 9:17:04 GMT
Just out of curisity if a video of a fight from a game was posted on youtube but no link from this site (or the elite forum) was made and you just had to type in what you were looking for (i.e voth fight), surely that cant get this site into trouble? To clarify: We're currently allowing links to photos/videos/websites etc on this forum. Just make sure that the URL is within a " " tag and not an "" tag so that the actual image isn't displayed on the forum.
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Post by martinski83 on Oct 3, 2006 9:18:44 GMT
Just out of curisity if a video of a fight from a game was posted on youtube but no link from this site (or the elite forum) was made and you just had to type in what you were looking for (i.e voth fight), surely that cant get this site into trouble? The whole area of refereing links a grey one to put it midly. However in that situation then no blame can be placed here or the elitr forums. GM could quite easily report the videos on youtube and have them removed (although he would probably get laughed at more than normal). Contrary to poular belief I want fans taking pictures and sharing with their mates, as long as they are not selling or using them without proper permission or paying the rights owners the 20-50% that i have to for their share. The whole issue of image rights was written before the advent of digital, there is currently a commision looking at the whole rights and privacy thing for journalists, watch this space. However if you have any 'proper' celeb pictures on your phone send me a copy and ill try sell it for ya some are worth upto £4000 at the moment for the right celeb (all for a measly 20% of course) And if you take out a full page colour advert in a newspaper, albeit a local one, and use a celebrity image to advertise your product, you can quite easily stick a 1 infront of the £4k quoted. Martin
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