BigLad
David Clarke
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Post by BigLad on Oct 12, 2011 16:51:02 GMT
Bring back Angry Greg!
(That's in no relation to your latest post Jono lol).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2011 21:20:16 GMT
The Cat's Whiskers new regular columnist is Allan Decker. In the first of his 'Tie Down The Jersey' articles he dicusses the going's on in Hull on Saturday and the shambles of a pre-game show in Sheffield. Tie Down The Jersey with Allan Decker |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2011 18:25:46 GMT
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Post by rangers on Oct 26, 2011 10:29:32 GMT
Mustn't....Rise....To....the bait.... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2011 20:19:03 GMT
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Oct 27, 2011 23:33:14 GMT
As a sort of corollary to Allan's article, may I offer the following thoughts? So many fans of other teams hold the Nottingham Panthers up as being everything that is wrong with British ice hockey - big, rich, arrogant, overbearing, yadda yadda yadda. Somehow we're either completely responsible for - or at least a major conspirator in - the ruination of our sport and keeping other teams down in the dirt... and apparently this has always been the case. What a load of bull. I don't have as much history with this club as many on here - I started watching the Panthers at the start of the 1999-2000 season, the last year in the old barn. Yes, that's right - no arena, we were a 'rink team' before we were one of the big, bad arena teams. But even I remember a lot of things that some of these other types forget. I remember fans of other teams coming into our rink - and posting online - and being smug & superior about how impoverished we were. Manchester Storm, Sheffield Steelers, London Knights... yes, even the Ayr Scottish Eagles, Cardiff Devils etc... looked down their noses at us. Even the Newcastle Riverkings fans got in on the act with superior attitudes. They went bust at the end of that season - overspent again. Didn't take long for some others to follow, neither. Of course, somehow that's all our fault...  I remember that we put out a team that got kicked from one end of the ice to the other because we spent less than most if not all of the other teams. Often literally bashed up & down the ice... when you'd got the likes of Mike Ware, Darren Banks, Todd Gillingham and Scott Young against us, and the most physical players we had were Brent Pope, Aaron Cain and Steve Carpenter... but our team worked their nads off, they weren't called "the hardest-working team in the Superleague" for nothing! They played their hearts out, we cheered our hearts out... but of course, we can't take pride in anything like that - it's just arrogance on our part, isn't it? I remember the constant jibes about us being 'losers'... how winning was the only important thing, any other consideration being secondary. And, of course, we were bumping along at the bottom of the league, so we were totally unimportant. Funny how attitudes change, isn't it? Now look at the club - big, rich, successful (with everything but the league title... but sooner or later, we'll get it). How did we manage that? A rock-solid loyal fanbase, a great facility, some good fortune, a prudent financial regime from the owner, and a lot of damned hard work. To hear some talk, you'd think we'd raped and pillaged our way through British ice hockey to get where we are now. One has to wonder how much of this anger and resentment is simply down to envy... In no way, shape or form are the Nottingham Panthers - the club, or indeed us fans - anything approaching perfect. And yes... I can imagine that some of the club's actions have made life a bit more difficult for some other clubs (apart from those that Neil Black has invested in at one time or another, of course... but let's not bother with irrelevancies like that, shall we? ). But neither are we the root of all evil. And neither are the clubs or fanbases of those criticising us immune from harsh scrutiny, either. Methinks there are some out there who are only remembering what they choose to remember - only what is convenient to them. It's always easier to blame someone else for things going wrong... in many cases, they need to look a lot closer to home for the main causes of their problems. There's an old saying about motes and beams... maybe some of these people ought to look it up. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2011 23:42:16 GMT
Shaggy please get yourself on TCW. I can't think of a single post of yours that I have disagreed with, so just volunteer your time to save me having to do so.
Brilliant post, as was Allan Decker's article.
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Oct 27, 2011 23:44:02 GMT
Shaggy please get yourself on TCW. I can't think of a single post of yours that I have disagreed with, so just volunteer your time to save me having to do so. Brilliant post, as was Allan Decker's article. ;D Thank-you... but I couldn't do that to Jono... he'd come in for SO much stick! Plus the way I ramble on, I think the bandwidth would suffer...  But thanks for the compliment, nonetheless!  |
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Post by rangers on Oct 28, 2011 7:45:08 GMT
The article is a load of rubbish, and after the response I will rise to the bait.
Firstly, No-one is saying it is all the Panthers fault there is no Vipers.
No-one is saying the Vipers management didnt make - quite big - mistakes
And no-one is saying EIHL hockey in the North East is viable with the ice that is available
What this Allen Decker chap has to remember is that the 'insufferable whingers' he talks about are hockey fans like him. But Hockey fans who lost their team. The 'insufferable whingers' are the ones who gave a damn about their team. Bought tickets for games they couldnt make. Paid for jersey sponsorship when they couldnt really afford it. Did everything they could to make the team work.
He mentions that players like payette, campbell, anglestadt, cornish and mcallister would have been intiimidating, while euros are not at whitley bay.
Guess what - two of them are NHLers - you think we had the money for NHLers? from my limited knowledge of hockey finances, in general, euros are cheaper than canucks. All the 'insufferable whingers' were told to live within our means. Our means did not include heavyweights who can play a bit - for some reason this so called 'allen decker' thinks come cheap and automatically bring in fans.
The point about the MRA - I believe we couldn't play there because a) the rent doubled (living within our means and all that) and b) the ice plant is screwed. I assume this 'allen decker' knows this as he is able to comment with such authority.
Whitley Bay has its issues. It makes no sense but my understanding is we were allowed no on ice or on board sponsorship. Very limiting. While I love the place with a passion, for some people they just couldnt/wouldnt go. Whether because of the location being out in the sticks, the fact its a a bit of a hole really or (ulikely but possible) because of the whitley v durham rivalry.
But there was no other choice.
This Allen deecker says the north east has a great history of hockey. He is correct. There are 2 teams playing in the ENL this year.
However, when 'we' (it was before my hockey time) ruled the roost it was low budget. Local players were at the heart of every team.
And the sporting scene in the North East was very different. Go and look at what has happened to Newcastle United and Newcastle Falcolns and Durham Cricket since the 80s/early 90s and compare that to the equivalents in Nottingham. Go and look at how much of a religion football has always been, but has grown into as well - unlike anywhere in England. I remember when I first moved there, and Sunderland (where I lived) was just full of everyone wearing Mackem shirts. Everyone. Never seen anything like it. Newcastle Utd is even bigger.
And when you have looked into the sporting history, spot the point when Newcastle hockey started to struggle (i'll give you a clue - its about the same time United started to grow - I'm sure you can spot a connection there...)
And yes, the 'big 4/5' have something to do with this as well. this so called allen decker says we won the playoffs and 2nd in the league but didnt bleat. Well guess what. We did a couple of months later, when Panthers offered Jan Krajicek and Matus Petricko twice what we were paying them. We picked them up on the cheap, despite it being blindingly obvious Jimmy was one of the best d-men in the country, because the EIHL was to arrogant to look at the bnl.
Then when it was realised how good they were we were priced out. We were dragged into the 'arms race' - stupidly - and the spiral started.
You could - and should - argue that we should pay what we can afford - but on that basis you got teams like the one we put out last season. My favourite team. The which tries every shift. The one which scored some of the best goals I have ever seen - far better than any big hit or fight - but were not good enough to compete. Which is not good for anyone.
I know you all loved the 14-0 drubbing you gave us. Especially with the classy 'we want 12' etc comments on the scoreboard, which made you look like the school bully.
(I have no issue with the score - I would rather you ran it up like that than stop playing after 6 or whatever. But the comments on the board were crass, insensitve and unnessacary.)
Anyway, i've put all this before - and know i'm just doing what this allenn dakar says we do all the time - but I feel it needs to be said.
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Oct 28, 2011 12:52:30 GMT
A few re-rebuttals... Firstly, No-one is saying it is all the Panthers fault there is no Vipers. No, they never actually come out and SAY it... just hint, niggle and insinuate... as well you know. What - like that pathetic PR put out by the later-disgraced Vipers owner, briefly mentioning that he may have made a few mistakes (not bothering to actually detail any, of course!) and then spending several pages slagging off and blaming everyone else! There were plenty of Vipers fans who swallowed that one hook, line and sinker. No, there's always the pro-forma acceptance of mistakes made... then "right, got that out of the way... what about those rich <deleted>, it's all their fault!". What you have to remember is that you're only talking about some of said "insufferable whingers" (and I don't believe he was only talking about Newcastle fans, either). Some of them did none of what you said. And the fans up in the NE are also part of the problem. OK, so Sir John Hall (and others) made a right mess up there, and some fans have trouble travelling to a different rink... but there were plenty of others - Durham, Newcastle and Whitley fans - who ranted that they wouldn't watch their team under a new name or in a different rink, just because it wasn't the same as before. The tribalism amongst fans in that area is the worst I've come across in British ice hockey. Again - not the whole problem, but definitely a part of it. Quite possibly... but that likely masks a lot of other factors. Back in the ISL days, both the Riverkings and the Jesters spent beyond their means... that left a nasty legacy for the Vipers to inherit... and it's all very well claiming that the Vipers have never overspent - but plenty of other teams have claimed that, and nobody believes most/any of them - so why should we believe it of Newcastle? What tripe. The EIHL as a whole had nothing to do with player recruitment... that was down to individual clubs. And clubs don't, by and large, ignore a ready-made recruitment source right on their doorstep. Who was it that the Panthers recently signed after he'd played a few games for Guildford? Of course, that was "poaching", wasn't it? So, we're either poachers or arrogant. What a choice. And as for Krajicek, I distinctly remember the same kind of accusations aimed at Newcastle coming from Edinburgh fans... that you waved the wonga at him. What goes around comes around? And allegedly, when he left us for an EPL team, he was being paid even more than we'd given him! No wage cap in the EPL, remember (not even a fake one like we've got). Where's the outrage there? Are you STILL going on about that? What about your announcer/DJ atthe MRA, the serial away-fan abuser? We've been told THAT was all in the past, that we should forget it... and you complain about one rule for one, another rule for others? Look - just accept the fact that many of us feel a lot of sympathy for the plight of Newcastle fans (and others) with no team... but that doesn't mean we're going to swallow all of the bitter, twisted and quite frankly delusional accusations that get hurled at uson the subject. The Vipers are gone for a multitude of reasons... many of which have nothing to do with the league or any other team. |
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oldman
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Post by oldman on Oct 28, 2011 13:01:51 GMT
Reading Rangers post tells me that Allen had his blog spot on, do these Vipers moan on steeltalk ( stalintalk) or the inferno, or what ever the cov one is, hell no, but we had a season of twisted, comments that made us out to be one of the main reasons they folded, many decent discussions got diverted for this sad diatribe, and then they come back in here and deny they meant any of it!
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Post by rangers on Oct 28, 2011 13:25:00 GMT
Reading Rangers post tells me that Allen had his blog spot on, do these Vipers moan on steeltalk ( stalintalk) or the inferno, or what ever the cov one is, hell no, but we had a season of twisted, comments that made us out to be one of the main reasons they folded, many decent discussions got diverted for this sad diatribe, and then they come back in here and deny they meant any of it! Sigh... The point of my post was to point out that saying bad vipers management was entirley to blame for the collapse (as alien Ducket seems to suggest) is as incorrect as saying the panthers are entirely to blame for the collapse. As always there are a number of factors. I understand it comes across as a moan, but there we go. |
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Post by ted logan on Oct 28, 2011 13:35:09 GMT
As a sort of corollary to Allan's article, may I offer the following thoughts? So many fans of other teams hold the Nottingham Panthers up as being everything that is wrong with British ice hockey - big, rich, arrogant, overbearing, yadda yadda yadda. Somehow we're either completely responsible for - or at least a major conspirator in - the ruination of our sport and keeping other teams down in the dirt... and apparently this has always been the case. What a load of bull. I don't have as much history with this club as many on here - I started watching the Panthers at the start of the 1999-2000 season, the last year in the old barn. Yes, that's right - no arena, we were a 'rink team' before we were one of the big, bad arena teams. But even I remember a lot of things that some of these other types forget. I remember fans of other teams coming into our rink - and posting online - and being smug & superior about how impoverished we were. Manchester Storm, Sheffield Steelers, London Knights... yes, even the Ayr Scottish Eagles, Cardiff Devils etc... looked down their noses at us. Even the Newcastle Riverkings fans got in on the act with superior attitudes. They went bust at the end of that season - overspent again. Didn't take long for some others to follow, neither. Of course, somehow that's all our fault... I remember that we put out a team that got kicked from one end of the ice to the other because we spent less than most if not all of the other teams. Often literally bashed up & down the ice... when you'd got the likes of Mike Ware, Darren Banks, Todd Gillingham and Scott Young against us, and the most physical players we had were Brent Pope, Aaron Cain and Steve Carpenter... but our team worked their nads off, they weren't called "the hardest-working team in the Superleague" for nothing! They played their hearts out, we cheered our hearts out... but of course, we can't take pride in anything like that - it's just arrogance on our part, isn't it? I remember the constant jibes about us being 'losers'... how winning was the only important thing, any other consideration being secondary. And, of course, we were bumping along at the bottom of the league, so we were totally unimportant. Funny how attitudes change, isn't it? Now look at the club - big, rich, successful (with everything but the league title... but sooner or later, we'll get it). How did we manage that? A rock-solid loyal fanbase, a great facility, some good fortune, a prudent financial regime from the owner, and a lot of damned hard work. To hear some talk, you'd think we'd raped and pillaged our way through British ice hockey to get where we are now. One has to wonder how much of this anger and resentment is simply down to envy... In no way, shape or form are the Nottingham Panthers - the club, or indeed us fans - anything approaching perfect. And yes... I can imagine that some of the club's actions have made life a bit more difficult for some other clubs (apart from those that Neil Black has invested in at one time or another, of course... but let's not bother with irrelevancies like that, shall we? ). But neither are we the root of all evil. And neither are the clubs or fanbases of those criticising us immune from harsh scrutiny, either. Methinks there are some out there who are only remembering what they choose to remember - only what is convenient to them. It's always easier to blame someone else for things going wrong... in many cases, they need to look a lot closer to home for the main causes of their problems. There's an old saying about motes and beams... maybe some of these people ought to look it up. Shaggy, this is your finest hour. Take a bow sir |
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Post by rangers on Oct 28, 2011 13:51:53 GMT
A few re-rebuttals... Firstly, No-one is saying it is all the Panthers fault there is no Vipers. No, they never actually come out and SAY it... just hint, niggle and insinuate... as well you know. What - like that pathetic PR put out by the later-disgraced Vipers owner, briefly mentioning that he may have made a few mistakes (not bothering to actually detail any, of course!) and then spending several pages slagging off and blaming everyone else! There were plenty of Vipers fans who swallowed that one hook, line and sinker. No, there's always the pro-forma acceptance of mistakes made... then "right, got that out of the way... what about those rich <deleted>, it's all their fault!". What you have to remember is that you're only talking about some of said "insufferable whingers" (and I don't believe he was only talking about Newcastle fans, either). Some of them did none of what you said. And the fans up in the NE are also part of the problem. OK, so Sir John Hall (and others) made a right mess up there, and some fans have trouble travelling to a different rink... but there were plenty of others - Durham, Newcastle and Whitley fans - who ranted that they wouldn't watch their team under a new name or in a different rink, just because it wasn't the same as before. The tribalism amongst fans in that area is the worst I've come across in British ice hockey. Again - not the whole problem, but definitely a part of it. Quite possibly... but that likely masks a lot of other factors. Back in the ISL days, both the Riverkings and the Jesters spent beyond their means... that left a nasty legacy for the Vipers to inherit... and it's all very well claiming that the Vipers have never overspent - but plenty of other teams have claimed that, and nobody believes most/any of them - so why should we believe it of Newcastle? What tripe. The EIHL as a whole had nothing to do with player recruitment... that was down to individual clubs. And clubs don't, by and large, ignore a ready-made recruitment source right on their doorstep. Who was it that the Panthers recently signed after he'd played a few games for Guildford? Of course, that was "poaching", wasn't it? So, we're either poachers or arrogant. What a choice. And as for Krajicek, I distinctly remember the same kind of accusations aimed at Newcastle coming from Edinburgh fans... that you waved the wonga at him. What goes around comes around? And allegedly, when he left us for an EPL team, he was being paid even more than we'd given him! No wage cap in the EPL, remember (not even a fake one like we've got). Where's the outrage there? Are you STILL going on about that? What about your announcer/DJ atthe MRA, the serial away-fan abuser? We've been told THAT was all in the past, that we should forget it... and you complain about one rule for one, another rule for others? Look - just accept the fact that many of us feel a lot of sympathy for the plight of Newcastle fans (and others) with no team... but that doesn't mean we're going to swallow all of the bitter, twisted and quite frankly delusional accusations that get hurled at uson the subject. The Vipers are gone for a multitude of reasons... many of which have nothing to do with the league or any other team. We appologised for our announcer. On the internet for the world to see. No such action for this from the panthers. It leaves a very bitter taste in the mouth from a team, lets not forget, which I used to support, and a city which I still call 'home' There is a history of poor management of newcastle hockey teams. I know nothing of the details as I started watching hockey properly in the Vipers first season. Hence a lack of comment (I try and comment on things I have a little bit of knowledge on, but not much else. This Andy Decker should do the same) I mentioned the problems with the Bay Never said poachers - said that it is part of the 'arms race.' A race we tried to compete in - rightly or wrongly - and lost. I remember panthers programmes and fans claiming pretty much that entire team (only 2-3 players were not BNL) would be blown away as they were second rate from a second league. One Panther even proclaimed 'we will skate rings around them.' The league table and playoffs show how accurate that was. I remember the panthers V Steelers game when Pasi Raitenen pretty much won the game on his own. Panthers fans (and I believe, although may be wrong) the official site belittled Pasi saying he had come from a second rate league. Lack of knowledge, arroganec Never claimed we overspent. Quite the opposite in fact We screwed up. Big style. But circumstances were also against us. As I say quite regularly EIHL HOCKEY IS NOT SUSTAINABLE IN THE NORTH EAST. |
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Post by NottinghamMatt on Oct 28, 2011 14:24:48 GMT
Petty renaming of the author of something on the internet, classic proof of the poster being fully aware there argument is weak! You may disagree with what someone put and that is your prerogative but doing that just proves half the point of the article, with your more articulate posts rangers I thought you were better than that..... What this Allen Decker chap this so called 'allen decker' thinks this so called allen decker (as alien Ducket seems to suggest) This Andy Decker should do the same |
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oldman
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Post by oldman on Oct 28, 2011 15:29:28 GMT
Rangers your passion for the Vipers is good to see, however the reason you folded is totally down to your management and nobody else, they came up against the same problems as many others teams struggling to stay afloat, but through ignorance or arrogance made repeatedly the wrong decisions and it cost you your team.
That said i used to like watching the vipers in our place but this blame shifting even to the slightest degree is missing the point entirely you and the rest of the Vipers fans were let down by your owners and management and only they should shoulder the blame for that !
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Post by elliottstanley on Oct 28, 2011 21:09:22 GMT
Deary deary me.
Rangers I've always respected your views, even the ones I disagree with, but quite frankly you've made a bit of a man boob of yourself here.
Shaggy is spot on. All I will say is that there are plenty on here and throughout Nottingham and the East Midlands who remember, and indeed passionately followed throughout, the times when the 'Nottingham Panthers' brand was nothing of the sort. It was a fanatics night out down a packed Ice Stadium. Fond memories, yes, but as Jono pointed out the other week the memories are fairly rose tinted, the reality was not quite the same, the hockey was crap and those days are long gone.
Your memories, of rusty old rinks, damp tatty old pine benches, old time hockey and a sport where it's all 'kept in the family' are just that - your club couldn't keep with the times, they suffered from some of the worst and most neglectful management I have ever seen and the league, and sport in this country, is better off without them.
I would dearly love for there to be a successful hockey team in the North East, only earlier today I was talking with Marc Twaite about how many people, like me, would be willing to invest in hockey if the whole sport were better run. The fact is that it isn't - and it's down to attitudes like yours that there are not more Nottingham's and Belfast's gracing the EIHL.
So we've had your first 'hard done to Vipers' outburst of the season, are you going to follow it up immediately with the 'actually the EPL is just as good as the EIHL' line again or do you think it might be worth sparing us the jilted lover routine?
Vipers are dead, their own fault entirely - deal with it.
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Post by rangers on Oct 28, 2011 23:03:22 GMT
I enjoy the epl. In the same way i enjoyed isl, bnl and eihl. And if i had the time and money the enl. I just love hockey. Been lucky enough to be fan, season ticket holder, reporyer, sponser, player and official (at epl level) I just love hockey. Ive watched panthers steelers scimitars and phantoms regularly. Outside my passion for vipers. Yes. I love the epl. I did before the vips went bust. I loved the vips. But i love hockey more.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2011 18:43:40 GMT
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Post by Rob Scott on Nov 1, 2011 10:09:36 GMT
I stopped reading after the 1st sentence of the second paragraph.
"A part of me died inside when I heard Panthers fans booing Hicks on Saturday."
How very pompous and dramatic....
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Post by ted logan on Nov 1, 2011 10:30:11 GMT
I stopped reading after the 1st sentence of the second paragraph. " A part of me died inside when I heard Panthers fans booing Hicks on Saturday." How very pompous and dramatic.... I thought that - let's be very panthers like and give that nice michael hicks chap a jolly good round of applause. After all he did his best |
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Nov 1, 2011 10:35:04 GMT
Who will he upset this week? Seeing as I'm "arena generation", me  |
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Post by rangers on Nov 1, 2011 15:06:13 GMT
in regards to his last comment, it's a pleasure Allan. Enjoy your hockey.
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oldman
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Post by oldman on Nov 1, 2011 15:18:19 GMT
This one was way off the mark we all know Hicks was not the only cause of the loss but he was certainly a small part of it!
Also it was elitist with rubbish put downs like 'the arena generation' as if to say all the fans in the barn were educated in the nuances of the sport and you had no daft comments.
Maybe Allan thinks he needs to load his blog with controversy in order to get a reaction each time, no matter what, that piece was just wrong on so many levels!
In the end we were all newbies once perhaps Allan needs to remember that when he is deciding who should be allowed to sit near him!
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Nov 1, 2011 15:19:08 GMT
Seeing as I'm "arena generation", me I'm beginning to wish I'd never used the phrase. I only used it as a way to differentiate between those who watched games in the old barn and those that didn't. The article I wrote, I think (it's a fair few years ago), was trying to point out to the latter that they didn't know how lucky they were and tried to compare the relative (dis)comfort of places like Sheffield Arena with older rinks like Durham and Whitley (amongst others). I would like to point out at this point, if I may, that I have never used the phrase insufferable whingers until today.  |
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