The Cat's Whiskers - Cold Introduction

[supermattytrickett]

Glad Jamie recognises that channels of communication have to be better between fans and the management. Neither can really exist properly without the other, so it makes sense to keep those who care for the club close-by and feeling valued rather than simply alienating them which continues to happen.

No great surprise about references to Gary Moran. A closing of ranks there I suspect and those who have had a series of bad experiences with him will probably be turning an even brighter shade of crimson having read Jamie's defence. I do sense an air of immortality about his position at the club which is dangerous as familiarity does, and already has in my opinion, bred complacency.

I guess you'll take from the interview what you will. It doesn't answer all the great burning questions but then I wasn't expecting it to if i'm being honest. It was nice however to hear a rare insight from someone with strong links to the owner.

Lets hope his old man addresses us soon though as i'm fascinated to hear what he thinks of the current situation, or should that be plight, at the Nottingham Panthers.

[focus12]

(It was nice however to hear a rare insight from someone with strong links to the owner.)

This is one of the problems. As written elsewhere, Jamie is not treated by management the same way as the management treat the fans.
Anyone who could be about to lose their job can be 'nice' to those who have influence.

[oldman]

For me part of that was going round in circles, Jamie states that he would welcome a fans forum, but he is worried about what he calls the hatred of Gary Moran, however he doesnt seem to realise that it is because of Gary's lack of communication skills and his rather autocratic approach to any suggestions from elsewhere that creates this antipathy for Gary.

Ergo a more open Gary would have less people perhaps having the wrong impression of him and his role in the pecking order here!

My suggestion would be get someone like Chris Ellis to run it in the civilised way it should be run, with a mandate about bad language etc not being allowed and a clear agenda agreed by all beforehand. We care too much about this club to turn it into a meaningless version of the Star Chamber.

[supermattytrickett]

Feb 16, 2011 21:11:18 GMT focus12 said:

(It was nice however to hear a rare insight from someone with strong links to the owner.)

This is one of the problems. As written elsewhere, Jamie is not treated by management the same way as the management treat the fans.
Anyone who could be about to lose their job can be 'nice' to those who have influence.

I completely agree. Those who have felt the wrath of GM, and there's a fair few, will have a very different opinion of the man than the owner's son.

[bill238]

I thought the main reason people wanted GM gone was because they thought the lack of on-ice success was down to him. Now that Jamie has explained what his actual role is and how he has nothing to do with the on-ice running of the club it seems that the blaming of results on GM is just stupid. Alot of people on here now just want GM too leave because they don't personally like him, just because a few people have a run in with him doesn't mean he should be sacked. His job is the off-ice running of the panthers and I think its pretty obvious he is doing it well and therefore deserves the position he is in at the moment

[supermattytrickett]

Feb 16, 2011 21:52:36 GMT bill238 said:

I thought the main reason people wanted GM gone was because they thought the lack of on-ice success was down to him. Now that Jamie has explained what his actual role is and how he has nothing to do with the on-ice running of the club it seems that the blaming of results on GM is just stupid. Alot of people on here now just want GM too leave because they don't personally like him, just because a few people have a run in with him doesn't mean he should be sacked. His job is the off-ice running of the panthers and I think its pretty obvious he is doing it well and therefore deserves the position he is in at the moment

Moran wants entertaining hockey. It sells tickets, makes his boss money and keeps him in a job. He's afraid that a different, more cautious approach might turn the punters away, lose his boss money and help him out of a job.

I may be oversimplifying things (deliberately too), but this is the gist of the issue. Moran's outlook on entertainment first, all else second seeps deeply into the psyche of how all things on-ice are approached and structured which makes Jamie's comments look IMO quite odd.

[Paul]

Feb 16, 2011 21:52:36 GMT bill238 said:

I thought the main reason people wanted GM gone was because they thought the lack of on-ice success was down to him. Now that Jamie has explained what his actual role is and how he has nothing to do with the on-ice running of the club it seems that the blaming of results on GM is just stupid. Alot of people on here now just want GM too leave because they don't personally like him, just because a few people have a run in with him doesn't mean he should be sacked. His job is the off-ice running of the panthers and I think its pretty obvious he is doing it well and therefore deserves the position he is in at the moment

So,if he told you the capital of France was Helsinki would you believe him just because he said it? I'm not saying you're right or wrong just questioning the validity of the all too often reasoning you're using.

[bill238]

Feb 16, 2011 22:05:18 GMT supermattytrickett said:

Feb 16, 2011 21:52:36 GMT bill238 said:

I thought the main reason people wanted GM gone was because they thought the lack of on-ice success was down to him. Now that Jamie has explained what his actual role is and how he has nothing to do with the on-ice running of the club it seems that the blaming of results on GM is just stupid. Alot of people on here now just want GM too leave because they don't personally like him, just because a few people have a run in with him doesn't mean he should be sacked. His job is the off-ice running of the panthers and I think its pretty obvious he is doing it well and therefore deserves the position he is in at the moment

Moran wants entertaining hockey. It sells tickets, makes his boss money and keeps him in a job. He's afraid that a different, more cautious approach might turn the punters away, lose his boss money and help him out of a job.

I may be oversimplifying things (deliberately too), but this is the gist of the issue. Moran's outlook on entertainment first, all else second seeps deeply into the psyche of how all things on-ice are approached and structured which makes Jamie's comments look IMO quite odd.

But hasn't jamie just said he has nothing to do with the on-ice running of the club? Moran's job is to off ice issues. It is his job to attract fans, surely by entertaining the fans with the match night presentation or making the games sound entertaining on the website, he is just doing his job

[pantherinmanc]

My tuppence worth...

Jamie's clearly a very articulate and intelligent guy, and I'm not saying that because he's at Cambridge; his responses to Jono show it in abundance. I guess what I'm missing is some context. I confess that, up until Jono mentioned him to me a couple of weeks ago, I didn't even know Neil had a son. I guess what i'm trying to say is I am unsure of how to take Jamie's comments/views and from what position he's giving them: Fan? Employee? Owner's Son? All of the above?

Not for the first time I find myself pretty much in agreement with supermattytrickett and Mark. I just cannot believe that person after person sees fit to share so many stories of being badly treated by GM for there not to be a problem. I don't understand why (current) Elite League coaches think Nottingham is a 'no go' area because of 'our management' if things are as Jamie paints them in his interview with Jono. It makes no sense.

I'm more confused, disillusioned and perplexed now than I was a couple of weeks ago.

Something I will say is that it is refreshing that Jamie talks about opening up new channels of communication, this is vital in my opinion. That said it is that element, more than any other, that leads me to suspect that this is not just Jamie's thoughts laid bare and that some other forces are at play here. A promise to improve communications with the fans is something that is needed desperately, very quickly followed by actions that fulfil the promise, I suspect Neil knows that.

I also disbelieve, as I always have, this belief that there is such a 'clear cut' line between 'on-ice' and 'off-ice' activities. Granted Gary cannot be blamed if his job requires him to be in and around the roster but the fact is it does and he is. By way of an example I will cite one of my own interests, a bar which I part own. I am probably there less than 5% of its opening hours on any given week but I still believe I contribute to it's culture and to it's very low staff attrition as a result of that culture. Little things, little interactions or chats make all the difference in creating a successful and inclusive atmosphere. I set the precedent and the next level down follow that precedent. If I treated customers with arrogance and rude confrontations they would see fit to do the same. Simplified example but one that is true all the same. Culture starts from the top, it's vital.

The criticism of Corey I agree with 100%. Perhaps cynically I could suggest that if one knew a man was facing the axe regardless one would be both empowered and relatively safe to make such comments about his ability.

My honest opinion, as I still wait for Neil Black to contact me as promised, is that some serious damage limitation is being kicked off at the moment and the layers of protection that surround the money making juggernaut that is Nottingham Panthers Ice Hockey Club are, to all intents and purposes, impenetrable.

I hope some change comes from my actions and I will obviously still very much welcome a chat with Neil however right now I can pretty much say i'm done with Panthers. I hope, for the sake of some of the quite simply amazing people i've conversed with these past couple of weeks, that things change, because they deserve some return for their loyal and unwavering support of the team, a team that no one man should be bigger than.

[pantherinmanc]

Feb 16, 2011 22:20:55 GMT bill238 said:

But hasn't jamie just said he has nothing to do with the on-ice running of the club? Moran's job is to off ice issues.

Thing is bill there are several sources, some of them with first hand experience, citing evidence that contradicts this, I just do not know who to believe, there is way too much smoke for there not to be a fire somewhere.

[bill238]

Feb 16, 2011 22:09:29 GMT Paul said:

Feb 16, 2011 21:52:36 GMT bill238 said:

I thought the main reason people wanted GM gone was because they thought the lack of on-ice success was down to him. Now that Jamie has explained what his actual role is and how he has nothing to do with the on-ice running of the club it seems that the blaming of results on GM is just stupid. Alot of people on here now just want GM too leave because they don't personally like him, just because a few people have a run in with him doesn't mean he should be sacked. His job is the off-ice running of the panthers and I think its pretty obvious he is doing it well and therefore deserves the position he is in at the moment

So,if he told you the capital of France was Helsinki would you believe him just because he said it? I'm not saying you're right or wrong just questioning the validity of the all too often reasoning you're using.

The thing is I know from certain people what moran's role is, its just been backed up by Jamie Black and I'm positive that when hopefully NB replies to PIM's letter it will say exactly the same thing. So what these people are all lying? If NB replies which hopefully he will and i'm sure he will say exactly the same as jamie when it comes to GM's role is it not obvious that what they say is true. Surely if NB tells us what GM's role is then it has got to be true, I mean for crying outloud he employs GM and tells him what to do but I can gurantee no matter what anyone says from within the club people will still come up with these ridiculous conspiracies that GM has all this involvement that no one is told about

[pantherinmanc]

Feb 16, 2011 22:25:55 GMT bill238 said:

Feb 16, 2011 22:09:29 GMT Paul said:

So,if he told you the capital of France was Helsinki would you believe him just because he said it? I'm not saying you're right or wrong just questioning the validity of the all too often reasoning you're using.

The thing is I know from certain people what moran's role is, its just been backed up by Jamie Black and I'm positive that when hopefully NB replies to PIM's letter it will say exactly the same thing. So what these people are all lying? If NB replies which hopefully he will and i'm sure he will say exactly the same as jamie when it comes to GM's role is it not obvious that what they say is true. Surely if NB tells us what GM's role is then it has got to be true, I mean for crying outloud he employs GM and tells him what to do but I can gurantee no matter what anyone says from within the club people will still come up with these ridiculous conspiracies that GM has all this involvement that no one is told about

I just don't know bill. I have had telephone conversations with people and I just do not think they are lying, in fact i'd back them 100%. I pride myself on being a fairly good judge of character and these are genuine people, their love of the club is clear.

Call me cynical but I'll put another slant on what you have said above (which i'm not saying is true, i'm merely playing devil's advocate to counter your "surely it must be true slant):

Would a man, who employs someone who keeps hitting his aim of putting profit into his bank account, continue to defend his employee to maintain what is, to that man, a fairly happy scenario?

I think more than anything that NB is in a 'better the devil you know' scenario. He likes the profit that GM brings and can live with the unhappy fans, the stories of badly treated sponsors etc etc as long as the tills keep chiming.

[supermattytrickett]

Feb 16, 2011 22:20:55 GMT bill238 said:

Feb 16, 2011 22:05:18 GMT supermattytrickett said:

Moran wants entertaining hockey. It sells tickets, makes his boss money and keeps him in a job. He's afraid that a different, more cautious approach might turn the punters away, lose his boss money and help him out of a job.

I may be oversimplifying things (deliberately too), but this is the gist of the issue. Moran's outlook on entertainment first, all else second seeps deeply into the psyche of how all things on-ice are approached and structured which makes Jamie's comments look IMO quite odd.

But hasn't jamie just said he has nothing to do with the on-ice running of the club? Moran's job is to off ice issues. It is his job to attract fans, surely by entertaining the fans with the match night presentation or making the games sound entertaining on the website, he is just doing his job

So if hypothetically a future coach of the Nottingham Panthers wants to go down the defensive-style of trap hockey as he thinks it'll win a championship, you think Moran will stand idly by as the crowds drop and the income to Black reduces?

No, of course not.

But then the above actually suggests that Moran isn't part of the hiring of coaches which I think is totally wide of the mark. Lets face it, would Neil know enough to go out there and draw up shortlists of prospective coaches from across the hockey world?

No, of course not.

[bill238]

Feb 16, 2011 22:37:46 GMT supermattytrickett said:

Feb 16, 2011 22:20:55 GMT bill238 said:

But hasn't jamie just said he has nothing to do with the on-ice running of the club? Moran's job is to off ice issues. It is his job to attract fans, surely by entertaining the fans with the match night presentation or making the games sound entertaining on the website, he is just doing his job

So if hypothetically a future coach of the Nottingham Panthers wants to go down the defensive-style of trap hockey as he thinks it'll win a championship, you think Moran will stand idly by as the crowds drop and the income to Black reduces?

No, of course not.

But then the above actually suggests that Moran isn't part of the hiring of coaches which I think is totally wide of the mark. Lets face it, would Neil know enough to go out there and draw up shortlists of prospective coaches from across the hockey world?

No, of course not.

If we were gonna win the championship with a boring team I dont think it would affect out attendances negatively at all, infact I think it would be the opposite.

Your second point if anything points even more to the coach being hired by NB. The fact that all the coaches have been from the 'inside' probably show that NB's wider contacts are limited

[Mark]

Same old, same old. I predict we'll be looking at the league table this time next season, saying "ah well maybe next year."

Nothing significant will change at the Panthers, that's my impression from the interview.

[robbo2306]

Seems to be a well educated guy judging by his responses, a real shame there is a certain amount of common sense missing....

[Robbie Nud]

It was mentioned that the issues with GM seem to be from how he has spoken to people that has caused upset, but some of those people have been sponsors and because of this they have not continued to sponsor either a player or some other form sponsorship. So therefore his attitude has cost the club money. Or is the response that, there is always someone else who will do the sponsoring so who cares?

[pantherinmanc]

Feb 17, 2011 12:26:09 GMT Robbie Nud said:

It was mentioned that the issues with GM seem to be from how he has spoken to people that has caused upset, but some of those people have been sponsors and because of this they have not continued to sponsor either a player or some other form sponsorship. So therefore his attitude has cost the club money. Or is the response that, there is always someone else who will do the sponsoring so who cares?

He's been heard to say:

"For every sponsor we currently have there are 2 more waiting to come on board"

To embrace customer/sponsor attrition in that manner is one of the most bizarre business approaches I've ever encountered.

[focus12]

Bill 238 -I am employed by a company as an accounts clerk/bookkeeper to trial balance.This is what is stated on my contract.
However I have been known to frank letters, make tea/coffee, go to the bank/post office, edit catologues etc.
Because you are contracted to do one job doesn't exclude you fromdoing/interfering in another.

[supermattytrickett]

Feb 17, 2011 15:01:39 GMT focus12 said:

Bill 238 -I am employed by a company as an accounts clerk/bookkeeper to trial balance.This is what is stated on my contract.
However I have been known to frank letters, make tea/coffee, go to the bank/post office, edit catologues etc.
Because you are contracted to do one job doesn't exclude you fromdoing/interfering in another.

Quite!

The 'other duties' part of a job description is often the most important part and ironically is the one with the least information to accompany it.

[bill238]

Feb 17, 2011 15:01:39 GMT focus12 said:

Bill 238 -I am employed by a company as an accounts clerk/bookkeeper to trial balance.This is what is stated on my contract.
However I have been known to frank letters, make tea/coffee, go to the bank/post office, edit catologues etc.
Because you are contracted to do one job doesn't exclude you fromdoing/interfering in another.

obviously it doesn't but then people can just make accusations of him with no substance, I'm sure NB tells him what to do and not what to do. TBH there will be 3 people who actually know what his job is and that is NB, CN and GM. I can gurantee though that even if NB came out and said specifically that GM does not get involved with on-ice matters full stop people would still make accusations that he does

[Shorty]

Feb 16, 2011 21:26:13 GMT oldman said:

My suggestion would be get someone like Chris Ellis to run it in the civilised way it should be run, with a mandate about bad language etc not being allowed and a clear agenda agreed by all beforehand. We care too much about this club to turn it into a meaningless version of the Star Chamber.

Get Showsec on it and let them use tasers on those unruly people. Or Captain Kirk, "Set phasers to stun".

[Milkman™]

Feb 17, 2011 16:01:43 GMT bill238 said:

Feb 17, 2011 15:01:39 GMT focus12 said:

Bill 238 -I am employed by a company as an accounts clerk/bookkeeper to trial balance.This is what is stated on my contract.
However I have been known to frank letters, make tea/coffee, go to the bank/post office, edit catologues etc.
Because you are contracted to do one job doesn't exclude you fromdoing/interfering in another.

obviously it doesn't but then people can just make accusations of him with no substance, I'm sure NB tells him what to do and not what to do. TBH there will be 3 people who actually know what his job is and that is NB, CN and GM. I can gurantee though that even if NB came out and said specifically that GM does not get involved with on-ice matters full stop people would still make accusations that he does

I think the substance is

Rubbish website
Rubbish programme
Rubbish media coverage
Rubbish social networking coverage
Rubbish merchandise

As for on ice, do you seriously believe the sacking of Ellis was not instigated by GM

[bill238]

Feb 17, 2011 16:42:56 GMT Milkman™ said:

Feb 17, 2011 16:01:43 GMT bill238 said:

obviously it doesn't but then people can just make accusations of him with no substance, I'm sure NB tells him what to do and not what to do. TBH there will be 3 people who actually know what his job is and that is NB, CN and GM. I can gurantee though that even if NB came out and said specifically that GM does not get involved with on-ice matters full stop people would still make accusations that he does

I think the substance is

Rubbish website
Rubbish programme
Rubbish media coverage
Rubbish social networking coverage
Rubbish merchandise

As for on ice, do you seriously believe the sacking of Ellis was not instigated by GM

I agree with the rubbish website, programme and social networks but not everything can be perfect and hopefully these things will improve over time, these 3 reasons are no where near enough to justify the sacking of GM

I don't agree with media coverage as I don't think we do that bad for an ice hockey club. Also as Jamie has mentioned, the NIC run the shop and therefore merchandise isn't actually completely down to GM.

As for Mike Ellis I know that it was NB who decided to sack him, of course he would of taken opinions from tons of people involved in the panthers and ice hockey and yes this probably includes GM but that doesn't mean it was down to him why ellis got sacked. Personally I didn't like Ellis that much as a coach and I think we can do better

[Milkman™]

Feb 17, 2011 17:20:15 GMT bill238 said:

I don't agree with media coverage as I don't think we do that bad for an ice hockey club. Also as Jamie has mentioned, the NIC run the shop and therefore merchandise isn't actually completely down to GM.

There are more ways to get merchandise out there than the NIC shop, check out the other teams in the league.

Media coverage, why no video highlights on the web, no podcast, no news letter. Also I get to read the news wires at work, and cant remember the last time I saw a press release from the Panthers.