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Post by ggggranville on May 22, 2007 8:57:26 GMT
Its like Morcambe and Wise but better !!! ;D
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Post by jd on May 22, 2007 9:02:08 GMT
so just to confirm, smith, huppe and macaslan are NOT coming to the panthers, is that right?
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Doom
Greg Hadden
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Post by Doom on May 22, 2007 9:04:47 GMT
So we ve had 7 pages of nonsence then and talking like they have already been confirmed To be fair Pidge, although the specifics maybe incorrect (ie. Smith and Huppe signing), I do think the points being made by various people regarding possible levels of spending by the big clubs are worthy of discussion. Regards Doom
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Doughnut
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Post by Doughnut on May 22, 2007 9:08:17 GMT
BTW I know something the rest of you dont & when it happens I'll be the first to say that I knew it was going to happen ;D That's nothing, I can see into the future and know who will win next year's league title. I'm not telling anyone, but when the league is decided I'll happily confirm that I already knew who was going to win.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2007 9:14:49 GMT
So we ve had 7 pages of nonsence then and talking like they have already been confirmed To be fair Pidge, although the specifics maybe incorrect (ie. Smith and Huppe signing), I do think the points being made by various people regarding possible levels of spending by the big clubs are worthy of discussion. Regards Doom And what levels of spending do you know is for 100% certain.
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Doom
Greg Hadden
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Post by Doom on May 22, 2007 9:32:22 GMT
To be fair Pidge, although the specifics maybe incorrect (ie. Smith and Huppe signing), I do think the points being made by various people regarding possible levels of spending by the big clubs are worthy of discussion. Regards Doom And what levels of spending do you know is for 100% certain. I don't know any 100%, because I'm not privy to any contracts. That doesn't stop me expressing a concern that should the levels of spending start to increase, it could lead to problems further down the line. What we do know 100% is that Sheffield have offered their 1st University place this year and Nottingham now have both a player assistant coach and a player fitness coach. From where I'm sitting I definately get the feel that clubs are starting to think more outside the box with regards to ways of spending outside the wagecap. It's not for me to say whether that's right or wrong, but that doesn't stop me expressing a concern as to the way things may develop. Regards Doom
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2007 9:37:23 GMT
Well if the league increased the cap abit , then perhaps it wouldn t encourage the likes of Nottingham and sheffield to take the mick and `think of other ways` and commit a act of dishonesty if you like.
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Post by sawchuk on May 22, 2007 9:44:57 GMT
Rink teams cannot compete with arena teams for wages, just as Cardiff lost out on signing Tessier last season, to the Steelers. That's what we used to say when we played at LPS to which Sheffield fans said " Tough poo" We lost lots of players to you guys due to money.
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DaveE
David Clarke
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Post by DaveE on May 22, 2007 10:03:28 GMT
Well apparently there was supposed to be a signing announcement today according to a couple of people in Sheffield.
Doesn't look very likely that this is gonna happen now. Well not today at least
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Post by tubes44 on May 22, 2007 10:07:08 GMT
nah we always put too much hype on the website apparently before we announce a signing ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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DaveE
David Clarke
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Post by DaveE on May 22, 2007 10:08:30 GMT
nah we always put too much hype on the website apparently before we announce a signing ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Actually, that hasn't happened this season.....yet
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on May 22, 2007 10:11:51 GMT
A couple of replies to Doom....
It's a very legitimate concern, IMHO... but I think that other possibilities are probably more likely - that clubs B and/or C simply will refuse to spend beyond a certain amount. From everything that we can tell, the likes of Cardiff, Basingstoke, Hull, Edinburgh and Manchester restricted their spending last season - even knowing that other clubs were outspending them. OK, two of those clubs occupied the bottom two slots of the league... but others did better. Cardiff finished above us, remember? I think that owners know that whilst increased spending can help a team's chances, it is no guarantee of such - and that careful recruiting can do just as well.
"Starting" to think more outside the box? Doom... this has been happening for years! Look at how many player/coaches there have been in the EIHL over the past few years... Basingstoke, Belfast, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Manchester and Newcastle have all used them. Plenty of teams have used educational enticements (they were doing it in ISL days as well, as I recall) - Coventry have been doing it for years, I hear that Edinburgh have done so... it was announced a year or two ago that we had formed links with at least one university.... etc etc.
Doom - I think your basic concerns are legitimate, and certainly the situations you describe could cause serious problems if they got out of hand. But you're talking like all of this is something new, that it is a 'new and worrying development'... when everything you describe has been going on for years! As long as it doesn't go OTT - and there is no evidence that it is happening any more than previous years - then I don't think we're heading towards an ISL2.
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on May 22, 2007 10:14:16 GMT
So, to summarise.... We're getting innuendo (verging on outright accusations) that the Panthers are trying to buy the league - based upon rumour, guesswork (prejudice?) and 2nd/3rd-hand information of dubious provenance... about players that we haven't even signed yet (if ever) coming onto a team whose roster is barely a third full as yet. In other words, it's a load of foetid dingo's kidneys. Next?
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Doom
Greg Hadden
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Post by Doom on May 22, 2007 12:10:08 GMT
The thing is Shaggy, you'll always get some teams outspending others in sport, it's the nature of the beast. My concern is if the wealthier teams this season intend outspending the likes of Hull/Edinburgh by even more . I did hear a rumour that the level of spending on players has stepped up this season and some of the poorer teams are concerned. I don't know how much truth there is in this rumour, but I certainly wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. As for teams thinking outside the box, I agree it's always gone on to some degree, I just hope we're not going to see a trend towards it happening to an even greater degree than in the past. I'm not taking a dig at any one particular team, because I include my own club as one of the likely big spenders. Maybe I'm worrying unnecessarily ....It's what I do best ;D.......But there certainly seems to be more finger pointing going on this season than I've seen for a number of years.....No smoke without fire?....Who knows That's my last say on the issue.....for now Regards Doom
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on May 22, 2007 13:28:12 GMT
I fI may respond... The thing is Shaggy, you'll always get some teams outspending others in sport, it's the nature of the beast. Yep - this coming season being the same on that score as 2 years ago, 5 years ago, 20 years ago, whatever... I agree it's inevitable - that isn't the problem IMHO. The problem comes if it gets out of hand. Hmmm.... not convinced by that one. Sheer spending power doesn't seem to be enough. Smart recruiting, good coaching, and a host of other factors - seems to me that they are the routes to follow. I'll support that with one bit of solid evidence for you - the massive increase in the number of multi-year deals that we've seen recently. A few years ago - they were unheard-of. Now several teams are using them. Looks like players might be swayed more by a bit of long-term stability than by the size of the wallet being waved? Rumours. I've heard a rumour that no less than 3 EIHL teams will have ex-NHLers in their squads next season. Believe it? - not on your nelly. As for poorer teams being concerned... THAT is soemthing that I can well believe. Thing is - I was speaking with one of the owners of the Hull Stingrays (good people, the Packs - and smart) in their first season in the EIHL. I was told that they simply couldn't compete financially with the likes of us, Sheffield, Belfast, Coventry etc... yet they are still in the same league as us. Before they even joined the EIHL, they were... shall we say 'less than happy' with certain aspects of the league. But they decided to join anyway - and have decided to stay anyway. That indicates to me that they believe that it is do-able. I've chatted with Edinburgh's Scott Neil as well... and I get the same impression from him. Pass. Thing is - all of these ways round the wage-cap... they seem to be methods that are as equally open to the 'poorer' teams as they are to the richer ones. If anything, an increase in the use of these non-wage inducements could actually narrow the gap between teams instead of increase it! No offence, Doom... but if I hear that "no smoke without fire" thing once more, I think I'll vomit. It's bull. These days, there are so many unfounded accusations flying around that it's actually more unusual to find smoke with fire instead of without it! Accusation is not enough... and the sooner that is learned, the better off we'll all be.
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Post by texpef on May 22, 2007 14:43:57 GMT
steelers used to call this circumventing the rules "creative accounting" Doom, but now it is called breaking the wagecap especially when it seems that other teams (ie teams not called sheffield steelers) seem to be as good if not better at putting together a "package".
Look we had it for years that our better players/coaches moved onto sheffield as panthers got outbid... dont bitch and gripe when it seems other teams now are doing it too...
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Post by tubes44 on May 22, 2007 14:55:00 GMT
i think you might be missing the point
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Doughnut
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Post by Doughnut on May 22, 2007 15:01:09 GMT
steelers used to call this circumventing the rules "creative accounting" Doom, but now it is called breaking the wagecap especially when it seems that other teams (ie teams not called sheffield steelers) seem to be as good if not better at putting together a "package". Look we had it for years that our better players/coaches moved onto sheffield as panthers got outbid... dont bitch and gripe when it seems other teams now are doing it too... It seems a little unfair to aim that attack at Doom. He doesn't seem to be bitching and griping, just expressing a concern that we could be starting down a slippery slope regarding spending levels. Fair enough for him to express that concern IMO. He doesn't appear to be accusing anyone of breaking the wage-cap and has openly said "I'm not taking a dig at any one particular team, because I include my own club as one of the likely big spenders." Steelers may have called it many things in the past. That's pretty irrelevant. Simms is now reported to be calling it "Thinking outside the box". Fair enough. They're doing it, we seem to be doing it, as do others. I don't blame any individual team for doing whatever they can to maximise their chances without breaking the rules. As far as I'm concerned, teams can think outside the box all they like, it's up to the league to stop them acting unfairly or outside the spirit of the rules, either by adjusting the rules or by enforcing them properly. The league don't seem interested (for a change).
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Post by Borussia10 on May 22, 2007 15:45:16 GMT
From what im reading no one has any facts to actually state that either the Steelers or Panthers are breaking the wage cap just pure speculation and rumour.
Although the wage cap is their have you ever thought that teams such as Hull and Edinbrugh might not spend all their allocation where as Steelers and Panthers can, hence hem having a better standard of player.
For example if the Panthers do sign Mark Smith then you have to take other things into consideration other than money. Yeah he might be being offered a few hundred pounds a week more(so people are saying) but also he might want to play for a arena team, a panthers player is his best mate, he didn't like playing in Cardiff or the Panthers may be offering his Wife/Partner a job where as Cardiff couldn't. There are many other reasons to consider as well but for people being worried is a little over the top. People where crying out for a better standard and for the entertainment to improve and now teams are trying o do that by signing better players. You can't do right for some people!!
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on May 22, 2007 16:03:53 GMT
People where crying out for a better standard and for the entertainment to improve and now teams are trying o do that by signing better players. You can't do right for some people!! I can see where Doom's coming from on this one, if a select few clubs outspend the others massively it'll surely split the league eventually? Whether we're at a stage of massive outspending (by ourselves or any of the "big" clubs) though is questionable, as has been said plenty of times before we've not signed any of these players we've been linked with yet, so at the moment its a bit of a moot point.
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Post by acsmyth on May 22, 2007 16:10:17 GMT
"what levels of spending do you know is for 100% certain."
You seemed to know 100% that Belfast had broken the wage cap Pidge.
Ahh, when the shoes on the other foot eh?
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LUFC
Ashley Tait
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Post by LUFC on May 22, 2007 16:12:33 GMT
So we ve had 7 pages of nonsence then and talking like they have already been confirmed To be fair Pidge, although the specifics maybe incorrect (ie. Smith and Huppe signing), I do think the points being made by various people regarding possible levels of spending by the big clubs are worthy of discussion. Regards Doom But what if they are completely wrong, what if the spending hasnt increased as expedentially as suspected, or what is being accussed off been, i mean the wages might be considerably less as clubs are using other means to pay the players in inst5ead. the out of the box thinking as simmsy puts it. It could all be that teams are just paying through other means but the overall wage bill including these out of the box ways of paying are not much different to previous years.
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Doom
Greg Hadden
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Post by Doom on May 22, 2007 16:30:23 GMT
People where crying out for a better standard and for the entertainment to improve and now teams are trying o do that by signing better players. You can't do right for some people!! I can see where Doom's coming from on this one, if a select few clubs outspend the others massively it'll surely split the league eventually? Whether we're at a stage of massive outspending (by ourselves or any of the "big" clubs) though is questionable, as has been said plenty of times before we've not signed any of these players we've been linked with yet, so at the moment its a bit of a moot point. Exactly!! At the moment Sheffield and Coventry are the furthest on in team building, certainly in Sheffield's case I would say the quality of player we're signing/are interested in has risen this season. From my own point of view I think this is great, because obviously I want to see the highest quality of hockey possible and my team competing for honours. However, if by doing that we split the league into 2 distinct halves, where does it leave the future of the league? I'm not saying this will happen, but it concerns me when I read postings from supporters advocating using every means possible to get around the wage-cap. It maybe great for our clubs, but at what cost to the sport? I guess we won't know until the season gets underway. At least one thing has come out of this....Texpef can no longer question the quality/cost of our signings if we put together some good "packages" ;D Regards Doom
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Post by texpef on May 22, 2007 16:58:40 GMT
sorry to go on about this but sheffield have led the way for as long as they have been in hockey Doom, (anyone remember their very own brits of tony hand, david longstaff and nicky chinn??). Then to turn around and say you are concerned is a little trite therefore, when it is your very own club that has led the charge to a split...
However the here and now, what can be done? Well as far as the so called big 3/4 are concerned its all about survival, we have all seen those steelers fans that turned up as empty seats over the last few seasons and if their new owner is to make a profit then he has to turn them into paying fans and we all know that to do that is to make the club successful on the ice. Fan bases in nottingham and belfast have remained pretty stable but who knows when the fans' patience will run out and go to other sports (fortunately for the owners the choice in belfast is somewhat limited and in nottingham the football clubs are dire!!) so again it is important to put more and more bums on seats and again the playoffs have shown IF NB can get the right formula on the ice then he will increase his profit dramatically. We then have coventry who have a good fan base but it too shows shifts when there are slack periods regarding trophies (fortunately for them this has been minimal but without ashley tait to drive their team forward it may all come crashing down around them....) All this proves that IF the money can be found and success bought then the owner stands to cash in BUT to the detriment of probably the other clubs... I am not classing the likes of edinburgh basingstoke, hull and now cardiff as the running costs must be that much lower to sustain a smaller fanbase that statistically it would in all probability not matter too much if the numbers dropped a little. The problem for me would be newcastle who seem to have money problems every year IF their fan base dropped then running a team in that arena could prove too difficult to sustain.
As always in hockey it appears that the owners attitude is "my club is more important than yours, british ice hockey and ice hockey in general" and whilst this permeates then these kind of posts will happen every year... wasnt it cardiff that started chequebook hockey Gazza and wasnt it steelers that took it to new heights Doom... seems a bit ironic now that other teams can match and perhaps exceed their own spending that it is those fans that purport to be worrying the most!!!!....
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Post by gazzathedevil on May 22, 2007 17:45:46 GMT
As always in hockey it appears that the owners attitude is "my club is more important than yours, british ice hockey and ice hockey in general" and whilst this permeates then these kind of posts will happen every year... wasnt it cardiff that started chequebook hockey Gazza and wasnt it steelers that took it to new heights Doom... seems a bit ironic now that other teams can match and perhaps exceed their own spending that it is those fans that purport to be worrying the most!!!!.... Yep i have no problem freeling admitting that the Cardiff Devils were one of the forerunners of Cheque book hockey, but the prizxe for missing the point for the achievement of having a dig goes to you Tex. Because quite frankly in the long run which is what im looking at here it was our great hockey clubs ultimate demise, the owners who did a dodgy sale to Bob Phillips saw us crash out of the BNL and led to distrust between the phillips family and the fans a split which until this summer was never healed. We went from the highest high to the lowest low Tex so i know full well what chasing trophies and spending above the means can do to a hockey club and i dont want to see ANY club's fans to go through the same becasue trust me it aint nice. So yes we were one of chequebook hockey teams, and it isnt 'ironic' im worry its damn well sensible. I'll reiterate for the 1000th time i hope i am wrong and my fears arent realised and everyone is spending within their means. It will only increase everyones enjoyment of the sport. The lesson was learnt the hard way here in Cardifff, it is there to be learnt the easy way for everyone else so lets hope it has been. i;m sure we can all agree about that.
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