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Post by texpef on Mar 20, 2007 8:10:54 GMT
its an opinion Gazza, strangely, one i dont share.... Player movements between clubs owned by the same family are always prone to allegations of tampering why would ice hockey be any different.
Just as an interesting note... which club would be the most profitable for the philips family? sheffield or cardiff then ask yourself who would the family most like to see successful on ice?
Success = bums on seats = more profit.....
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Post by spik on Mar 20, 2007 9:21:01 GMT
I'd certainly not want to see Neil Black owning another club.I'd be wondering if MY club would be losing out because of these instances happening.Reason for the fans to not like it.
evgenimalkin stated it was the LEAGUE that needs to sort itself out and thats what the fans are 'willing' to happen.The fact that the 'scorn' seems to look down on the clubs IS because the league allows it to happen.
Peeps will have to accept it would look exactly the same in reverse.
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Post by gazzathedevil on Mar 20, 2007 11:46:16 GMT
its an opinion Gazza, strangely, one i dont share.... Player movements between clubs owned by the same family are always prone to allegations of tampering why would ice hockey be any different. Just as an interesting note... which club would be the most profitable for the philips family? sheffield or cardiff then ask yourself who would the family most like to see successful on ice? Success = bums on seats = more profit..... One half of the family wants sheffield to do well and the other half wants to see Cardiff succeed and then they are both winners! see my post above to see how Cardiff are turning a corner. Also given all our problems this season considering the family apparantly love the cuddly steelers more than the Devils why are they still in Cardiff? wouldnt it have been easier not to have lost 250,000 on a hockey team considering you have another one? no one ever brings this up when talking about the phillips family ownign both clubs. At the end of the day what speaks volumes is that there arent major concerns for either Cardiff or Sheffield and if there was anything fishy going down both those fan bases would tell the world about it
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Post by Luca Toni on Mar 20, 2007 13:06:31 GMT
"At the end of the day what speaks volumes is that there arent major concerns for either Cardiff or Sheffield and if there was anything fishy going down both those fan bases would tell the world about it" - Gazzathedevil
I'm glad you can be so laissez-faire about it Gazza. Some people think the entire league is "fishy" though - and the fact that one family can own two clubs (unlike in most professional sporting situations) is highly demonstrative of it. I guess we'll just have to feel so lucky that Mother Theresa and the Pope happen to be interested in UK hockey.
And I don't accept your premise either. Seems to me both fanbases would deny everything until they were blue in the face - much like you are doing over this dual ownership issue.
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Post by gazzathedevil on Mar 20, 2007 14:09:44 GMT
"At the end of the day what speaks volumes is that there arent major concerns for either Cardiff or Sheffield and if there was anything fishy going down both those fan bases would tell the world about it" - Gazzathedevil I'm glad you can be so laissez-faire about it Gazza. Some people think the entire league is "fishy" though - and the fact that one family can own two clubs (unlike in most professional sporting situations) is highly demonstrative of it. I guess we'll just have to feel so lucky that Mother Theresa and the Pope happen to be interested in UK hockey. And I don't accept your premise either. Seems to me both fanbases would deny everything until they were blue in the face - much like you are doing over this dual ownership issue. You havent given me anything to deny because you cant think of anything to back up your guilty pleasure of wanting the Steelers to be found as cheats again. Bottom line is my club is being run fantastically well and i get to watch hockey every week, result for me and the rest of the Devils fans what do i have to moan about exactly? The fact the owners of the other Elite league clubs have no problem with this also backs up my stance on the issue. The Elite league is their bussiness as well and they wouldnt want anyone putting them to a disadvantage. All you have been able to come back with to me is it doesnt happen in other sports proving ot me quite conclusively that this situation isnt harming anything. i think you would probably enjoy this sport a lot more if you gave up forums and jsut watched the 60 minutes of hockey you get a week, you'ed probably be a lot better off as you wouldnt have any sort of conspiracy theories to attatch to.
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Post by texpef on Mar 20, 2007 14:30:33 GMT
so both are wanted to be winners? Maybe this is why the result was as last week then.. as that suits both clubs.. cardiff avoid panthers and steelers get them so from both points of view (sheffield and cardiff) they get what i suspect they perceive easier routes through the playoffs.... now i am SURE there was no finddling going off at all but you basically said that the result suited both clubs and AS THE OWNER IS EFFECTIVELY THE SAME how do we know that this was conspired? guess we will never know but it is indicative of the state of the league and ice hockey in this country that it is even allowed to happen isnt it?
And to state we dont know about any major concerns and that is a reason to suspect all is well is so naive as to be laughable, and i gave you more credit that that..
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Post by Luca Toni on Mar 20, 2007 14:31:35 GMT
Let's be clear Gazza: I'm not claiming a conspiracy - so strike that accusation. I'm not saying the Phillips' are bad owners - so strike that claim. I'm not saying I know of anything untoward that has happened - so strike that claim. I don't care, as it goes, if the Steelers cheat - so strike that claim.
What I am saying is such an arrangement is unprofessional - something this league - and its founding owners - seem very good at. That the owners - who you apparently see as saviours all - go along with this is hardly surprising since they have to make their money somehow - and they seem prepared to have any set of wacky arrangements - be they acceptable in general or not - in order to achieve that.
I might also point out that, as in other sports, this isn't a question of harm but of being seen to be doing the right thing. Clearly you'd rather have a club no matter who owned it, how many other clubs they owned or whatever organisation they were a part of. Its that attitude, and I admit its the dominant one in the places that matter, will keep hockey in the UK a pokey little parochial arrangement for ever and a day. Anyone on the outside looking in would pee themselves laughing at the way this mickey mouse league is set up. And I know of one or two that have.
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Post by Shaggy on Mar 20, 2007 14:33:26 GMT
Gazza - a couple of points, if I may... and please bear in mind that I've already stated that in this particular case I don't think that there IS anything underhanded going on (just that it appears that there could be - which is a legitimate concern in of itself, yes?)
Firstly, you earlier said "if there was anything fishy going down both those fan bases would tell the world about it". I'm sorry, but past history tells us that there might be a small minority who would, but the vast majority would most likely either stay silent or would vehemently deny that their club is anything other than whiter-than-white. That is true of ANY club (including ours), much less the two under discussion.
Secondly, you say "The fact the owners of the other Elite league clubs have no problem with this also backs up my stance on the issue. The Elite league is their bussiness as well and they wouldnt want anyone putting them to a disadvantage." Please... can you honestly tell me that after the endless balls-ups and revelations this season of confusion, inadequacy and incompetence in the way the EIHL is run, you can hand on heart use the business sense or even integrity of the EIHL board as any kind of positive argument? As individuals, there may be - hell, I'm sure that there are - EIHL owners who are sensible, shrewd busines types, even honest. Collectively, however... their track record is looking somewhat tarnished, yes?
Like I said - I don't think that there has been anything underhanded in this Cardiff/Sheffield thing (although I could be wrong... what do I know?). You make a fair point when you talk about "wanting the Steelers to be found as cheats again" - the only problem there is that they have cheated in the past, lied about it, and slung mud at everyone else at the time in an effort to disguise it. Their mud-slinging is exactly the same now as then - so can you honestly be surprised if people suspect that the rest may be the same as before?
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Post by gazzathedevil on Mar 20, 2007 14:54:46 GMT
Gazza - a couple of points, if I may... and please bear in mind that I've already stated that in this particular case I don't think that there IS anything underhanded going on (just that it appears that there could be - which is a legitimate concern in of itself, yes?) Firstly, you earlier said " if there was anything fishy going down both those fan bases would tell the world about it". I'm sorry, but past history tells us that there might be a small minority who would, but the vast majority would most likely either stay silent or would vehemently deny that their club is anything other than whiter-than-white. That is true of ANY club (including ours), much less the two under discussion. Secondly, you say " The fact the owners of the other Elite league clubs have no problem with this also backs up my stance on the issue. The Elite league is their bussiness as well and they wouldnt want anyone putting them to a disadvantage."Please... can you honestly tell me that after the endless balls-ups and revelations this season of confusion, inadequacy and incompetence in the way the EIHL is run, you can hand on heart use the business sense or even integrity of the EIHL board as any kind of positive argument? As individuals, there may be - hell, I'm sure that there are - EIHL owners who are sensible, shrewd busines types, even honest. Collectively, however... their track record is looking somewhat tarnished, yes? Like I said - I don't think that there has been anything underhanded in this Cardiff/Sheffield thing (although I could be wrong... what do I know?). You make a fair point when you talk about " wanting the Steelers to be found as cheats again" - the only problem there is that they have cheated in the past, lied about it, and slung mud at everyone else at the time in an effort to disguise it. Their mud-slinging is exactly the same now as then - so can you honestly be surprised if people suspect that the rest may be the same as before? Firstly Shaggy History will show you that when the Cardiff Devils have a problem with an owner you WILL hear about it, thousands of fans didnt sit outside the rink for a season for nothing. The ins and outs of that are long gone but it proves that if the fans thought in anyway we were being hard done by then things would be done. The Elite league owners are rubbish at sorting out rules, they are rubbish at fan communication (most of them) and their schedule organisation cna be something thats left to be desired (although thats not always their fault) What they all are brilliant at though is looking after their bussinesses. And the situation of a family owning two teams is something which will effect their bussiness, yet they seem to feel its ok and it will benefit them. So on that score Shaggy i trust them although i will agree with you wholeheartedly that this leage needs a good few tweaks its getting there though. No i am not suprised Shaggy that epople sort of expect them to cheat, although that was at a time where they didnt have other owners to answer to in a boardroom, and if any team cheats these days they effect the bussiensses of others. I cant see it happenidn got be honest but i take yoru point of being wary of it. I think another point people are missing here is that there isnt a whole host of people lining up to buy hockey clubs are there? and let's remember who was sellign the Steelers, the stubborn owd bugger wasnt exactly easy to work with was he? But we aer where we are, and theres not alot thats goign to changei dont think. And if anything untoward ever happened then i would raise my hands up and say i was wrong. I'll wager i'll never have to do that however. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Shaggy on Mar 20, 2007 16:15:23 GMT
Firstly Shaggy History will show you that when the Cardiff Devils have a problem with an owner you WILL hear about it, thousands of fans didnt sit outside the rink for a season for nothing. The ins and outs of that are long gone but it proves that if the fans thought in anyway we were being hard done by then things would be done. Fair point, Gazza... however, the situation then was much different to the one we are discussing. As I recall, the very existence of the Cardiff Devils was under threat at the time, yes? That kind of thing is bound to get people moving. Contrast that with speculation/suspicion of 'dodgy dealings' which may or may not affect the competitiveness of the team on the ice, and only possibly could have any impact upon the existence of the club... A different kettle of fish altogether. The first scenario was something that simply could not be ignored or dismissed... the situation under discussion is much more vague. Never underestimate the potential for people to ignore or dismiss stuff that isn't grabbing them by the throat.
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Post by gazzathedevil on Mar 20, 2007 16:33:17 GMT
Firstly Shaggy History will show you that when the Cardiff Devils have a problem with an owner you WILL hear about it, thousands of fans didnt sit outside the rink for a season for nothing. The ins and outs of that are long gone but it proves that if the fans thought in anyway we were being hard done by then things would be done. Fair point, Gazza... however, the situation then was much different to the one we are discussing. As I recall, the very existence of the Cardiff Devils was under threat at the time, yes? That kind of thing is bound to get people moving. Contrast that with speculation/suspicion of 'dodgy dealings' which may or may not affect the competitiveness of the team on the ice, and only possibly could have any impact upon the existence of the club... A different kettle of fish altogether. The first scenario was something that simply could not be ignored or dismissed... the situation under discussion is much more vague. Never underestimate the potential for people to ignore or dismiss stuff that isn't grabbing them by the throat. No i dont think our exsistence was in jeapordy, our ISL future was in jeapordy and fans didnt want to go to the BNL. as it happend the whole league went bust soon after. I dont really want to go into it but i disagreed with the protest then as i do now, and again The phillips family kept that team going with no fans coming into the building if we didnt play that year the council would have chucked us out a lot earlier than they did. But since that season bob has had his detractors all of whom would waste no time in telling the world if he done the dirty on us.
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Post by texpef on Mar 20, 2007 16:44:33 GMT
for eg gazza could anyone imagine a successful coach in sheffield with the present owner being dismissed and a player being made player/coach to save a few bob?
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Post by DaveE on Mar 20, 2007 16:55:20 GMT
Some game thread this is..... Though with regards to the 'match-fixing' allegations, was it not the linesman that gave one of the goals for Cardiff that apparently wasn't a goal? Makes you think whether the league and it's officials were doing their best in this game ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ;D Of course we all know this is not the case and personally I think all these accusations really are poor
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Post by gazzathedevil on Mar 20, 2007 17:22:04 GMT
for eg gazza could anyone imagine a successful coach in sheffield with the present owner being dismissed and a player being made player/coach to save a few bob? Wouldnt you be more suspicious if Cardiff didnt have financial troubles? I mean then sheffield would surely be wireing money into the cardiff account wouldnt they? Then we would have 5 pages talking about how sheffield fans are being hard done by propping up Cardiff's bank balance because they couldnt build a rink. Honestly tex that was a poor one to throw out wasnt it? They are seperate bussinesses and sheffield is healthier because they have had home ice since september. I quite enjoyed squashing that one actually ;D
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Post by texpef on Mar 20, 2007 17:32:52 GMT
you missed my point there gaz what i was trying to say was following up on my previous thread about preferences, in that where do you think the emphasis and priority is going to be when TWO clubs are owned. And imho it will be the club that is most profitable ie NOT CARDIFF... if money needed to be saved i suspect it WOULDNT be from sheffield and losing your coach (even though he was relatively successful) kind of backs up that thought doesnt it?...
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Post by newham on Mar 20, 2007 17:33:30 GMT
Everyone who doesn't play for the Panthers is a cheat.
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Post by mattscold on Mar 20, 2007 17:53:58 GMT
Everyone who doesn't play for the Panthers is a cheat. No just everyone employed by Mr Philips, oh and anyone employed by a certain Mr Wilson ;D
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Post by gazzathedevil on Mar 20, 2007 18:35:45 GMT
you missed my point there gaz what i was trying to say was following up on my previous thread about preferences, in that where do you think the emphasis and priority is going to be when TWO clubs are owned. And imho it will be the club that is most profitable ie NOT CARDIFF... if money needed to be saved i suspect it WOULDNT be from sheffield and losing your coach (even though he was relatively successful) kind of backs up that thought doesnt it?... I dotn think i get this bit tex i'll be honest. Cardiff as a bussiness needed to loose two lpayers or the coach. To maintain stability it was chosen that the coach was the oen to go. I dotn see why sheffield is being brought into that it is a seperate bussiness if they hit difficulties they iwll make their own cuts and changes thats up to them. I dont see the link and i dont see how priority for oen club or another comes into it ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) Mariani has her own money into the Devils having run a successful chain of bussiness in Cardiff for many years, its not like she has been a trophy wife for bob she has worked hard for many many years. i think you will have to explain your poitn to me more clearly tex im really not getting it.
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Post by spik on Mar 21, 2007 10:14:31 GMT
Can we all agree that if the Elite do bring in a rule (and let us all know.. ;D**)...that no owner can now have more than one club under his belt.That we'd ALL be happy and accept?
**Mind you the clubs have to ask what the rules are all the time. eg) if penalty box players can take Penalty shots. So theres going to be some BIG change for this to happen.
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Post by ggggranville on Mar 21, 2007 21:52:46 GMT
Playing the devils advocate - What if Bracknell join the Elite League next year. Mike Ellis I understand is part owner of the Bees. Would there be a conflict of interests as coach of the Panthers playing against them ?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2007 21:54:23 GMT
Playing the devils advocate - What if Bracknell join the Elite League next year. Mike Ellis I understand is part owner of the Bees. Would there be a conflict of interests as coach of the Panthers playing against them ? A perfectly fair & valid point. I would say there was.
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Mar 21, 2007 22:31:53 GMT
Playing the devils advocate - What if Bracknell join the Elite League next year. Mike Ellis I understand is part owner of the Bees. Would there be a conflict of interests as coach of the Panthers playing against them ? I stand to be corrected, but I'd heard that he no longer has a share in the ownership of Bracknell.
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Post by Luca Toni on Mar 21, 2007 22:40:41 GMT
If he is part owner there would be a conflict.
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Post by mike on Mar 21, 2007 22:53:01 GMT
In my opinion if the Elite wants to be taken seriously then it not only has to be beyond reproach but has to be seen to be, therefore if Ellis was part owner then he would have to give them or us up, simple as.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2007 23:00:34 GMT
In my opinion if the Elite wants to be taken seriously then it not only has to be beyond reproach but has to be seen to be, therefore if Ellis was part owner then he would have to give them or us up, simple as. Couldn't agree more. As difficult as it may be it would be an enormous conflict of interest, and if we are going to be critical of the situation with the Cardiff & Sheffield ownerships, then it would be hypocritical of us not to be critical of this situation should it arise.
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