simonm
Pat Casey
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Post by simonm on Jan 19, 2018 13:16:57 GMT
On a past thread I alluded to my dissolution with Panthers management being about how they treated their own fan base, and I'd like to say a little more about this.
"Slowly, very slowly I became aware of the attitude being shown towards fans.... The newbies didn't know any better but I did. "
As I've said I started watching Panthers in '84 in the Heinken era and all the other era's that followed... One of the things that was brought home to me was the very uncertain nature of the sport in this country. We didn't know whether we'd have a league the following season, teams would be created and fold and be finacially supported by the remaining teams, even long established teams like Durham Wasps would cease to be a competitive force in the game. When sheffield folded I attended their rally because just like them I understood that a strong sheffield rivalry helped my club finacially. Quite frankly you can't play in a league of one and it was becoming apparent that finacial instability of other teams in the league was having a detrimental effect on the stability of even my well supported club.
There exists therefor a very symbiotic relationship between clubs in our country...
Different clubs have different financial obligations that they have to meet. A new club started where no hockey has ever been played before could well need quick success to establish a fan base. Other clubs with say historicaly fickle supporters could well need to win the league, whilsts others maintain a level or growing supporter base with success in challenge competitions and play-offs. It's a business, no one out to destroy another club but instead everyone needs to take a share of the pie to meet their financial obligations..... and a smart businessman would understand this.
So I've seen new clubs start and gain multiple success and fickle supporter base clubs win leagues again and again and maintain their supporter base and over the past 33 years the most consistently supported and financially stable club in the country win one league title. And In a relatively small league, even with the vagaries of poor coaching and player attitudes in my mind it's not something that could have occured without some level of design. And consider that the success of our European adventures of late where as a club we can 'do our best' as it effects no one domestically.
Yet we have a growing league, relatively financially stable teams and consistent share holder dividends... as a businessman what's not to like ?
A conspiracy theorist.... but it doesn't mean it's wrong.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 19, 2018 13:49:28 GMT
This isn’t a theory, it’s a fact and it’s the reason that this is entertainment and not sport.
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jan 19, 2018 14:16:46 GMT
You think we're deliberately under performing in the league, so as not to upset the apple cart?
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Post by tootootrain on Jan 19, 2018 14:26:28 GMT
You think we're deliberately under performing in the league, so as not to upset the apple cart? I don't think it's a case of deliberately underperforming, rather deliberately not using the financial clout the Panthers have over other teams to keep things close. I believe Neil Black even alluded to 'throttling back' spending to keep the league competitive a few seasons ago.
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simonm
Pat Casey
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Post by simonm on Jan 19, 2018 14:27:17 GMT
I think when the BIHA ran the league we had a competition.....when the chairmen sat down and ran the league in their best interests, we have sustained profitable 'entertainment'.
Now if one goes to the theatre and doesn't like the entertainment there's no expectation of the actors winging an oscar (award) and as such become disapointed on forums about it.
We pay... we get entertained, if it's not value for money we walk.
Think of Panthers not a sporting club but as an entertainment provider.
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jan 19, 2018 14:33:35 GMT
You think we're deliberately under performing in the league, so as not to upset the apple cart? I don't think it's a case of deliberately underperforming, rather deliberately not using the financial clout the Panthers have over other teams to keep things close. I believe Neil Black even alluded to 'throttling back' spending to keep the league competitive a few seasons ago. That's a different matter, and could well be true. The question then should still be how does that compare to the others, and why should we need to massively outspend our rivals to get equivalent league showings? I'd bet we always have a wage bill at the top of the league, or very near. But the original suggestion seemed to be a large degree of collusion between the clubs so the "right" team wins what they need to win, to keep the league going forward. Which, if I have that right, is frankly tin-foil territory.
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simonm
Pat Casey
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Post by simonm on Jan 19, 2018 14:52:20 GMT
And if your team was doing too well, how easy would it be to unsettle your lines, play players on the wrong wing...
Did someone say from the 'inside', we had a third place team....
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Jan 19, 2018 15:00:03 GMT
I don't believe it's possible to engineer who wins what,as for one players would not entertain that. However i do sincerely believe that in Panthers case we deliberately set out to "keep things close" to avoid other clubs feeling they can't compete,by spending nowhere near what we could. Depending which side of the fence you sit,there is logic in the "keep it close theory", but looking purely as a Panthers fan it is truly not acceptable. But if this "keep it close" scenario is true,then the league we play in is false,we are being asked to swallow all the Panthers excuses for our abject failures and yet still believe our club is doing everything it can to win,when in reality nothing is further from the truth.
The simple fact is,that if Panthers wanted to they could blow the EIHL opposition away most years. However the fact we don't even compete for the league title,simply leads me to believe we don't want to win it and the whole league is fixed.
We are being conned in Nottingham into watching a sport which is nothing but false entertainment for the sole purpose of lining our owners pockets !
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Jan 19, 2018 15:03:43 GMT
And if your team was doing too well, how easy would it be to unsettle your lines, play players on the wrong wing... Did someone say from the 'inside', we had a third place team.... It would be very easy to set out NOT to win something,or derail the express train mid season. Just switch lines,put in place some ropey systems etc then gas a guy and don't replace him......oh wait ! 🙄 And yes they did say we had a 3rd place team.
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jan 19, 2018 15:07:28 GMT
I don't believe it's possible to engineer who wins what,as for one players would not entertain that. However the fact we don't even compete for the league title,simply leads me to believe we don't want to win it and the whole league is fixed. How are those two quotes compatible with one another? We are being conned in Nottingham into watching a sport which is nothing but false entertainment for the sole purpose of lining our owners pockets ! You're not being conned into doing anything, you've been going on about how many millions we should spend for years, yet you still go.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Jan 19, 2018 15:24:13 GMT
I don't believe it's possible to engineer who wins what,as for one players would not entertain that. However the fact we don't even compete for the league title,simply leads me to believe we don't want to win it and the whole league is fixed. How are those two quotes compatible with one another? We are being conned in Nottingham into watching a sport which is nothing but false entertainment for the sole purpose of lining our owners pockets ! You're not being conned into doing anything, you've been going on about how many millions we should spend for years, yet you still go. Of course they're compatible. You wouldn't get the players to "fix a trophy" but you just don't tell them. All you do is sign a team that's simply not good enough by not spending enough money,then do lots of other things badly to keep the team in check. You have to say,looking at Panthers actions from the outside.....it is entirely plausible ! I still go,at the moment,until my season ticket runs out. But that's it for me,no season ticket next year and no nothing unless there are big changes.....I've reached my limit with this sham of a club.
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jan 19, 2018 15:31:30 GMT
You have to say,looking at Panthers actions from the outside.....it is entirely plausible ! You don't, because it's really not.
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Post by pingchowchi on Jan 19, 2018 15:38:55 GMT
The more years I watch the Panthers, the more I suspect that our teams budget is set to be competitive and to not 'rock the boat'.
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Karl
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Post by Karl on Jan 19, 2018 15:45:02 GMT
I really have heard it all now...Corey is sabataging our season? On who’s orders? You honestly think a coach wouldn’t want to win everything he could? Are we really entertaining this...
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Jan 19, 2018 15:45:10 GMT
You have to say,looking at Panthers actions from the outside.....it is entirely plausible ! You don't, because it's really not. Matter of opinion. But looking from the outside,can you hand on heart say that Panthers always appear to,do ALL they can to win ? If they do,why have we just played an import short for a MONTH. Why do we let injuries drag on and on with no replacements. Why no spares. Why do we give up 2nd legs at home. Etc etc etc etc
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Jan 19, 2018 15:46:40 GMT
I really have heard it all now...Corey is sabataging our season? On who’s orders? You honestly think a coach wouldn’t want to win everything he could? Are we really entertaining this... Nobody mentioned Corey.....its above him this one !
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jan 19, 2018 15:52:42 GMT
The more years I watch the Panthers, the more I suspect that our teams budget is set to be competitive and to not 'rock the boat'. Again though Ping, that's a different argument. We may not want to massively outspend the rest to avoid chasing teams away, that's hardly unreasonable. Is the figure too low? Who knows. Certainly no one on here no matter how ITK they like to pretend they are. But, again, why is it we need to "blow the rest out of the water"? Why can't we take a team that costs the same as our rivals, and match them up? You don't, because it's really not. Matter of opinion. But looking from the outside,can you hand on heart say that Panthers always appear to,do ALL they can to win ? If they do,why have we just played an import short for a MONTH. Why do we let injuries drag on and on with no replacements. Why no spares. Why do we give up 2nd legs at home. Etc etc etc etc Different argument. Of course we should replace guys who've been sacked or are long term injured. You were suggesting earlier, in agreement with the OP, that we deliberately hamper ourselves, with the goal of benefiting our rivals.
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jan 19, 2018 15:53:36 GMT
Just switch lines,put in place some ropey systems etc
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meadow
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Post by meadow on Jan 19, 2018 16:06:30 GMT
Interesting point. I could maybe get on board with a less extreme version in line with Hanlon's Razor - something like; 'don't attribute malice to that which can be explained by stupidity'!
I think Panthers org, and more specifically NB, are only too aware that their meal ticket relies on the stability of the league as a whole, and this is at times has been threatened by, most recently, the Caps / Stars and in the past Vipers / Phoenix etc wanting out because they want more parity in the league.
As a consequence, I think others are right when they say that we're nowhere near spending enough in terms of player budget to what we theoretically could (AFAIK theres been reasonable estimates on here before in terms of what panthers turnover vs player budget is). But I don't think this is because there's a massive conspiracy to keep us mediocre (pretty risky business strategy!), I think its because as an organisation they're generally not very good at recruiting or attracting players that they think they should.
If anyones read Thommo's book he describes how he absolutely hounds players into signing for him and gets the best value out of them possible, I'm not so sure we get that here - its more like 'we're the Panthers in the fabulous NIC...of course they'll sign'!
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simonm
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Post by simonm on Jan 19, 2018 16:09:02 GMT
It's all about who you work for... The coach doesn't work for the players he works for the owner.. the players however work for the coach.
Yotes... what you're saying is that even if we've cut our cloth to match the other teams and be competitive.... the results over the years of league wins, say we've not been, and the explaination is that it's poor players ? poor coaching ? bad luck ?
But I'll tell you one thing. From now one you'll not be able to walk away from a game without think 'how did that happen with those players on the ice'..
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Karl
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Post by Karl on Jan 19, 2018 16:13:35 GMT
It's all about who you work for... The coach doesn't work for the players he works for the owner.. the players however work for the coach. Yotes... what you're saying is that even if we've cut our cloth to match the other teams and be competitive.... the results over the years of league wins, say we've not been, and the explaination is that it's poor players ? poor coaching ? bad luck ? But I'll tell you one thing. From now one you'll not be able to walk away from a game without think 'how did that happen with those players on the ice'.. Absolute rubbish. So anytime we lose, it must be because we threw the game and not because the opposition played better than us? Seriously....
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Post by vercingetorix1966 on Jan 19, 2018 16:15:01 GMT
Judging from the comments so far there seems to be a consensus that for whatever reason Panthers don’t spend what they could. This would be fine if we mounted a credible league campaign every year under these self imposed limits but we don’t. Nobody is asking Black to spend more than is brought in, just take the financial shackles off once in a while. Whilst he doesn’t, he just gives us ammunition to throw at him regarding the profits he must surely be pocketing. Success isn’t guaranteed simply by throwing money at it but I’d at least like us to give it a go one year. It’s not as if failure affects the attendances is it?
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Post by pingchowchi on Jan 19, 2018 16:16:52 GMT
Again though Ping, that's a different argument. We may not want to massively outspend the rest to avoid chasing teams away, that's hardly unreasonable. Is the figure too low? Who knows. Certainly no one on here no matter how ITK they like to pretend they are. But, again, why is it we need to "blow the rest out of the water"? Why can't we take a team that costs the same as our rivals, and match them up? It's my attempt at explaining why we fail so often, which I think is what the OP was getting at.
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jan 19, 2018 16:23:39 GMT
...the explaination is that it's poor players ? poor coaching ? bad luck ? Poor players and coaching certainly, all those years ago when Thomo called us Team Hollywood he was entirely correct, and still is. I suppose injuries occasionally could be put down to luck to a degree, but we seem to have corrected that by actually having a S&C coach this year (yes, spending more money), and not signing old crocks to begin with. I'd mostly put it down to being a big club still stuck with a small club mentality. I'd say all of that is far more likely than saying we've done it deliberately, because someone else needs that league title more than us.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Jan 19, 2018 16:46:33 GMT
Judging from the comments so far there seems to be a consensus that for whatever reason Panthers don’t spend what they could. This would be fine if we mounted a credible league campaign every year under these self imposed limits but we don’t. Nobody is asking Black to spend more than is brought in, just take the financial shackles off once in a while. Whilst he doesn’t, he just gives us ammunition to throw at him regarding the profits he must surely be pocketing. Success isn’t guaranteed simply by throwing money at it but I’d at least like us to give it a go one year. It’s not as if failure affects the attendances is it? Spot on. All Black has to do is throw a nice wad of money at it one season,nothing stupid needed and he could probably shut us all up by winning the league. He's very happy to throw silly money at European jaunts,but just think if he said,ok we're not in Europe this year so we will put that extra £200k or whatever into squad wages. That would be an absolutely massive increase to Coreys spending power. People argue you can't buy the league. Of course you can,that's why nobody other than the big four/five ever win it,or even win any trophy......and the "little teams" never will win it because they can't spend enough.
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