Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 10:56:22 GMT
As an off the wall example the Washington Wizards in the NBA regularly inflate their attendance figures by 4 to 5,000 (gets reported as 12,000 due to amount of seaosn tickets sold and presuming they are there when it's actually around 7 to 8,000 physically there on a given night). The arena they play out of is bigger than the Motorpoint yes, but still delivers a bit of perspective. Panthers can count season tickets for a league match as they have sold the ticket(s). Not for a stand alone cup match though. It's BS. The point I was making is about GM massaging the figures rather than addressing the issue or listening to reasons as to why so many people didn't attend? OK what if you took the season ticket aspect out of it. Maybe x amount of free tickets where given out (not something I am a fan of but it happens) is it then fair to assume that all those people would come and add them to the attendance figure? I don't think that's overly outrageous.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 11:06:12 GMT
The issue is if that you pick on something as nitpicky as this (which in the grand scheme of things isn't really an issue) the broader message that you and others try to get across gets lost as people then think it's moaning for moanings sake. It's a two way thing. Moran probably wonders why people don't like or trust him,but why should we trust any figure they give us if they can't even be honest about a poor crowd. There are a lot of things you could relate that issue of trust to ! OK what if I put it to you this way... If you took Moran out of the equation and there was somebody else in his position would there still be this reaction to it? No teams are honest about poor crowds, it's bad for the business aspect of running a sports franchise which is completly understandable. Massaging attendance figures doesn't make me trust them less or more, doesn't bother me in the slighest. But as something to take umbrage with it's very low on the list which then detracts from the broader issues because the more general fanbase will then take those less seriously.
|
|
|
Post by ted logan on Dec 15, 2016 11:11:44 GMT
Panthers can count season tickets for a league match as they have sold the ticket(s). Not for a stand alone cup match though. It's BS. The point I was making is about GM massaging the figures rather than addressing the issue or listening to reasons as to why so many people didn't attend? OK what if you took the season ticket aspect out of it. Maybe x amount of free tickets where given out (not something I am a fan of but it happens) is it then fair to assume that all those people would come and add them to the attendance figure? I don't think that's overly outrageous. I accepr the fact that you don't see the problem with this or that may be a logical explanation. However, you're missing the point. He (GM) would rather grossly exaggerate the attendance figures than address the issue. Which is why are so many longstanding fans now so disgruntled with the club and/or not attending matches and what is he prepared to do about it?
|
|
iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,484
|
Post by iginla on Dec 15, 2016 11:22:32 GMT
OK what if you took the season ticket aspect out of it. Maybe x amount of free tickets where given out (not something I am a fan of but it happens) is it then fair to assume that all those people would come and add them to the attendance figure? I don't think that's overly outrageous. I accepr the fact that you don't see the problem with this or that may be a logical explanation. However, you're missing the point. He (GM) would rather grossly exaggerate the attendance figures than address the issue. Which is why are so many longstanding fans now so disgruntled with the club and/or not attending matches and what is he prepared to do about it? Exactly. It's about honesty,having trust in our clubs management and looking to change the way the club is viewed by many. There are so many instances where they are dishonest or simply say nothing to cover up big issues. If they cannot even be honest about a simple crowd figure,then why should we believe them that they split a 50/50 prize correctly or maybe even give the appropriate money raised to charity etc etc ? With or without GM at the helm,Nottingham Panthers needs a massive shake up from top to bottom.
|
|
|
Post by pingchowchi on Dec 15, 2016 11:40:43 GMT
Well quite a few people on here complain that the Panthers should be spending more on the team due to their resources, well if the attendance figures are not to be believed maybe that's why?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 11:45:12 GMT
OK what if you took the season ticket aspect out of it. Maybe x amount of free tickets where given out (not something I am a fan of but it happens) is it then fair to assume that all those people would come and add them to the attendance figure? I don't think that's overly outrageous. I accepr the fact that you don't see the problem with this or that may be a logical explanation. However, you're missing the point. He (GM) would rather grossly exaggerate the attendance figures than address the issue. Which is why are so many longstanding fans now so disgruntled with the club and/or not attending matches and what is he prepared to do about it? As I mentioned to Iginla previously, if you take out the personal aspect of it and remove GM from the equation would this still be an issues (massaging attendance figures)? As in if there was another person in his position (because they would do it to have no doubt about that). There are a lot of reasons why people would choose to not attend matches (not all of them rational mind), but they aren't going to be fixed overnight.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 11:53:39 GMT
I accepr the fact that you don't see the problem with this or that may be a logical explanation. However, you're missing the point. He (GM) would rather grossly exaggerate the attendance figures than address the issue. Which is why are so many longstanding fans now so disgruntled with the club and/or not attending matches and what is he prepared to do about it? Exactly. It's about honesty,having trust in our clubs management and looking to change the way the club is viewed by many. There are so many instances where they are dishonest or simply say nothing to cover up big issues. If they cannot even be honest about a simple crowd figure,then why should we believe them that they split a 50/50 prize correctly or maybe even give the appropriate money raised to charity etc etc ? With or without GM at the helm,Nottingham Panthers needs a massive shake up from top to bottom. Being honest about the attendance figures doesn't make me question any of the clubs other activities, not even slightly. I think the organisation needs to become more efficient and better run, but a massive shake-up isn't required.
|
|
|
Post by Rob Scott on Dec 15, 2016 11:57:06 GMT
Unfortunately this is why it seems to be tricky to gather interest from some of the fan base for change.
If people are happy that we don't challenge for the league, have the same or worse match might experience from 10+ years ago and have the worst social media in the league then trying to get them to help implement change is very hard.
|
|
iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,484
|
Post by iginla on Dec 15, 2016 12:00:02 GMT
I accepr the fact that you don't see the problem with this or that may be a logical explanation. However, you're missing the point. He (GM) would rather grossly exaggerate the attendance figures than address the issue. Which is why are so many longstanding fans now so disgruntled with the club and/or not attending matches and what is he prepared to do about it? As I mentioned to Iginla previously, if you take out the personal aspect of it and remove GM from the equation would this still be an issues (massaging attendance figures)? As in if there was another person in his position (because they would do it to have no doubt about that). There are a lot of reasons why people would choose to not attend matches (not all of them rational mind), but they aren't going to be fixed overnight. It doesn't matter who's in charge. I make no secret that I don't like GM,but all we want is a successful honest club,that always does its best,that we feel we can trust and that doesn't treat it's fans with disdain like dumb cash cows. At the moment we have not got that ! It won't be fixed overnight no,but unless you start somewhere it will never get fixed.
|
|
|
Post by ted logan on Dec 15, 2016 12:01:18 GMT
I accepr the fact that you don't see the problem with this or that may be a logical explanation. However, you're missing the point. He (GM) would rather grossly exaggerate the attendance figures than address the issue. Which is why are so many longstanding fans now so disgruntled with the club and/or not attending matches and what is he prepared to do about it? As I mentioned to Iginla previously, if you take out the personal aspect of it and remove GM from the equation would this still be an issues (massaging attendance figures)? As in if there was another person in his position (because they would do it to have no doubt about that). There are a lot of reasons why people would choose to not attend matches (not all of them rational mind), but they aren't going to be fixed overnight. So we just accept it then? As for GM, come on. Let's not be naive here, every decision that is made at the club is either made by him or has to be run by him for approval. He's happy to be the centre of the attention when trophies are being held aloft, on the flip side, he has to be the front man when things aren't going so well.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 12:06:00 GMT
Unfortunately this is why it seems to be tricky to gather interest from some of the fan base for change. If people are happy that we don't challenge for the league, have the same or worse match might experience from 10+ years ago and have the worst social media in the league then trying to get them to help implement change is very hard. Those things are issues I do agree. But, if people are happy what's wrong with that?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 12:08:27 GMT
As I mentioned to Iginla previously, if you take out the personal aspect of it and remove GM from the equation would this still be an issues (massaging attendance figures)? As in if there was another person in his position (because they would do it to have no doubt about that). There are a lot of reasons why people would choose to not attend matches (not all of them rational mind), but they aren't going to be fixed overnight. So we just accept it then? I'm not saying accept it. I'm saying pick your battles. Fixating and complaining about attendance figures will turn a lot of people off to the need for change as it gives the impression of moaning for the sake of moaning. Focus on the bigger issues and the small things like this will change.
|
|
|
Post by Rob Scott on Dec 15, 2016 12:11:11 GMT
Unfortunately this is why it seems to be tricky to gather interest from some of the fan base for change. If people are happy that we don't challenge for the league, have the same or worse match might experience from 10+ years ago and have the worst social media in the league then trying to get them to help implement change is very hard. Those things are issues I do agree. But, if people are happy what's wrong with that? Nowt I guess. Sometimes I suppose it is better if you are easily pleased / have lower expectations.
|
|
iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,484
|
Post by iginla on Dec 15, 2016 12:22:52 GMT
Those things are issues I do agree. But, if people are happy what's wrong with that? Nowt I guess. Sometimes I suppose it is better if you are easily pleased / have lower expectations. Some people do accept second best or have lower expectations yes. Like in anything,life,school,work or whatever,if you don't strive for the best you will always end up with second rate. At present that sums up Panthers !
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 12:23:15 GMT
Those things are issues I do agree. But, if people are happy what's wrong with that? Nowt I guess. Sometimes I suppose it is better if you are easily pleased / have lower expectations. The important thing to remember with this though is that you musn't assume those people don't care, because I guarantee they do. I work in the marketing department for a fairly large company so believe me when I say I know that a lot needs to be changed at this club. But some people just want to go and watch ice hockey to escape from reality, not concern themselves with change or internal politics. If I was involved in anyway with the club I would change so much (or attempt to), but as a fan I just want to watch ice hockey. That's why I'm happy.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 12:46:46 GMT
Nowt I guess. Sometimes I suppose it is better if you are easily pleased / have lower expectations. Some people do accept second best or have lower expectations yes. Like in anything,life,school,work or whatever,if you don't strive for the best you will always end up with second rate. At present that sums up Panthers ! Lower your expectations and you'll always be pleasantly surprised. One of the keys to happiness.
|
|
|
Post by ted logan on Dec 15, 2016 12:59:30 GMT
So we just accept it then? I'm not saying accept it. I'm saying pick your battles. Fixating and complaining about attendance figures will turn a lot of people off to the need for change as it gives the impression of moaning for the sake of moaning. Focus on the bigger issues and the small things like this will change. Attendance figures aren't a big issue? Seriously? I disagree but never mind. If you think this is a minor issue, then what are the bigger issues to do with the club?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 13:05:52 GMT
Last night Forest had their lowest home attendance since 2008, whilst they aren't world beaters at the moment and coming off the back of a rubbish result on Sunday I think it's no coincidence the attendance was lower than a normal weeknight game.
Ultimately it was a non-ST game on a Wednesday night just over a week before Christmas in a month it feels we are playing every other day. People are low on money at the moment and could well be picking and choosing games, myself included.
Panthers were up against it last night bringing in a crowd even if we were top of the table and on fire. Perhaps a better deal for ST holders should be offered for these kind of games but beyond that last night would have been a very hard sell unless you drastically reduce prices. A £5 ticket would have made it hard to say no.
Whether they massaged the attendance figure or not doesn't really matter to me, I'd hazard a guess that it doesn't bother 98% of the fan base either but a forum being a forum those fans it does bother get a louder voice/representation than is actually the case.
Does anybody know what the score was?
|
|
iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,484
|
Post by iginla on Dec 15, 2016 13:05:58 GMT
Some people do accept second best or have lower expectations yes. Like in anything,life,school,work or whatever,if you don't strive for the best you will always end up with second rate. At present that sums up Panthers ! Lower your expectations and you'll always be pleasantly surprised. One of the keys to happiness. Apply your logic to a hockey player. And that's why the likes of Jade Galbraith never made the NHL,very talented guy but didn't work hard enough,so he ended up kicking round the backstreets of hockey and never made it big !
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 13:13:36 GMT
I'm not saying accept it. I'm saying pick your battles. Fixating and complaining about attendance figures will turn a lot of people off to the need for change as it gives the impression of moaning for the sake of moaning. Focus on the bigger issues and the small things like this will change. Attendance figures aren't a big issue? Seriously? I disagree but never mind. If you think this is a minor issue, then what are the bigger issues to do with the club? The massaging of attendance figures is the minor issue, especially for a midweek game, when the footballs on, so close to Christmas and not on the season ticket. Bigger issues include general running of the club (they need more employees with defined roles and then people given freedom within those roles) and social media presence would be my 2 biggest issues currently. Then when they are in order you move onto things like match night experience, fan interaction etc. As I have stated elsewhere on this thread if I was in any position of power I would change a lot, but as a fan (which is what I am) I just want to go and watch ice hockey not worry or read about trivial things such as the massaging of attendance figures.
|
|
iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,484
|
Post by iginla on Dec 15, 2016 13:13:50 GMT
Last night Forest had their lowest home attendance since 2008, whilst they aren't world beaters at the moment and coming off the back of a rubbish result on Sunday I think it's no coincidence the attendance was lower than a normal weeknight game. Ultimately it was a non-ST game on a Wednesday night just over a week before Christmas in a month it feels we are playing every other day. People are low on money at the moment and could well be picking and choosing games, myself included. Panthers were up against it last night bringing in a crowd even if we were top of the table and on fire. Perhaps a better deal for ST holders should be offered for these kind of games but beyond that last night would have been a very hard sell unless you drastically reduce prices. A £5 ticket would have made it hard to say no. Whether they massaged the attendance figure or not doesn't really matter to me, I'd hazard a guess that it doesn't bother 98% of the fan base either but a forum being a forum those fans it does bother get a louder voice/representation than is actually the case. Does anybody know what the score was? It was a hard sell,nobody questions that. What did Panthers do about it though....£2 off was it ? Might as well not have bothered for that difference. The issues from this game were...why lie about the crowd and it shows that the fans don't want a cup quarter final anymore. Will Panthers or the league listen....I doubt it. Are they stupid not to....yes.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 13:17:24 GMT
Lower your expectations and you'll always be pleasantly surprised. One of the keys to happiness. Apply your logic to a hockey player. And that's why the likes of Jade Galbraith never made the NHL,very talented guy but didn't work hard enough,so he ended up kicking round the backstreets of hockey and never made it big ! But if he's happy doing that what's the problem? Yes you can say it's wasted talent, but if doing it his way makes him happy who are you or I to say he's doing life wrong?
|
|
|
Post by ted logan on Dec 15, 2016 13:21:46 GMT
Panthers were up against it last night bringing in a crowd even if we were top of the table and on fire. Perhaps a better deal for ST holders should be offered for these kind of games but beyond that last night would have been a very hard sell unless you drastically reduce prices. A £5 ticket would have made it hard to say no. Sound logic. The sort of idea that GM/the club should listen to. Whether they massaged the attendance figure or not doesn't really matter to me, I'd hazard a guess that it doesn't bother 98% of the fan base either but a forum being a forum those fans it does bother get a louder voice/representation than is actually the case. Does anybody know what the score was? Again, the massaging of the attendance figures is not really the issue to me, but I'll let you read through the thread. 3-1
|
|
|
Post by ted logan on Dec 15, 2016 13:30:52 GMT
Attendance figures aren't a big issue? Seriously? I disagree but never mind. If you think this is a minor issue, then what are the bigger issues to do with the club? The massaging of attendance figures is the minor issue, especially for a midweek game, when the footballs on, so close to Christmas and not on the season ticket. Bigger issues include general running of the club (they need more employees with defined roles and then people given freedom within those roles) and social media presence would be my 2 biggest issues currently. Then when they are in order you move onto things like match night experience, fan interaction etc. As I have stated elsewhere on this thread if I was in any position of power I would change a lot, but as a fan (which is what I am) I just want to go and watch ice hockey not worry or read about trivial things such as the massaging of attendance figures. Can we move on from the 'massaging bit', I think that we've covered this and I've clarified my thoughts on it more than once. Anyhoo, I'd agree with your other points. There are many issues with the club and how it's run. Many people feel the same I'm sure. Don't forget the Supporters Trust has been set up and has another meeting early Jan. It's not a closed group, all welcome.
|
|
iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,484
|
Post by iginla on Dec 15, 2016 13:32:07 GMT
Apply your logic to a hockey player. And that's why the likes of Jade Galbraith never made the NHL,very talented guy but didn't work hard enough,so he ended up kicking round the backstreets of hockey and never made it big ! But if he's happy doing that what's the problem? Yes you can say it's wasted talent, but if doing it his way makes him happy who are you or I to say he's doing life wrong? He may be happy and I'm nobody to tell him what he should have done. But I bet he has moments where he regrets not working harder or getting in that car and effectively ending his hockey career on a low !
|
|