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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2016 11:06:33 GMT
In the event of playing in the Continental Cup or CHL I completely disagree, they have to take priority as they're bigger than the EIHL (even if the CC is home to some of the worlds dodgiest officiating & organisation, as all EIHL teams participating have found out). This year the league should be a priority I agree, but if Corey is given the objective of 'win a trophy, any trophy' then the whole topic of importance is irrelevant. If Corey is given a priority of 'Win a trophy, any trophy' then again the priority is wrong. With the crowds & subsequent money the Panthers rake in we should be consistently challenging for & winning the league title. There is no right and wrong as to what priority is given to the coaching staff, I have no doubt that Corey & Rick set out with the best intentions of trying to win the league but at the end of the day if they're not judged on that who are we to hold it over their heads? The reason none of this bothers me is because I just want to be a fan, I don't care about backstage politics and all that jazz because it really has nothing to do with me how the club operates. I'm not a 'happy clapper' I moan like everybody else, if they play poorly I'll say and if it's bad bounces I'll say that too. I pay my money to watch a game of ice hockey, how that money is then allocated by the club I have paid it to is absolutely none of my concern in terms of if they re-invest some of that back into the squad for replacements etc.
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Shorty
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Post by Shorty on Jan 13, 2016 12:01:44 GMT
According to Iginla we are making a fortune. Nobody in the right mind would sell on that basis. What do you think? I think they will make a good profit. I doubt its as easy to work out as Iginla suggests, but if it was not making a good profit then I doubt Neil Black would own us.
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Dan
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Post by Dan on Jan 13, 2016 14:58:07 GMT
So Dan. What you are saying is that you are happy with what we have and are doing and we should all be happy to sit back and watch smaller and less well off teams pick up trophies. How do you explain several other teams winning the important trophy multiple times,remaining in business,whilst the biggest and most profitable by a country mile languishes in 4th or 5th place and doesn't even make play off weekend recently ? As for treating the fans,I know exactly what GM thinks of them,he has told me first hand more than once. When you know that,it is extremely difficult to take it seriously when you hear him pontificating on a microphone or read what his "spokeswoman" says in print !!! Several? In the entirety of the EIHL era it's been won by four teams. Don't get me wrong, we really should have won more. 5 years ago i'd be right in your corner - it wasn't good enough. Now though? We've had 1.5 bad years following the most successful era in modern UK hockey history. Our lack of titles has generally been down to bad coaching than lack of funding, we've always been quick to replace players - until this year.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 13, 2016 15:14:47 GMT
I think they will make a good profit. I doubt its as easy to work out as Iginla suggests, but if it was not making a good profit then I doubt Neil Black would own us. Anyone who doesn't think that the Panthers make a VERY good profit really doesn't have a grip on simple arithmetic as it's not really rocket science. I am sure that a lot of money has gone into proping up other teams over the years plus the Clan start up and it looks like a London start up now in the off season.
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Dan
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Post by Dan on Jan 13, 2016 15:38:58 GMT
It'd make this argument much clearer if we were allowed to know salary.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 13, 2016 15:43:02 GMT
It'd make this argument much clearer if we were allowed to know salary. Just sponsor a player and ask him.
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Jan 13, 2016 15:50:03 GMT
I've sat down and scribbled before and you can easily get a Panthers yearly turnover of at least £2m with I reckon costs around £1m. The average player salary is about £700 per week or £15k ish per week for the squad,arena costs £14k per game. Do the maths somebody and see what you get to,there are only two really big costs,players and arena hire.
Believe me,Mr Black is making a lot of money from Panthers !
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Dan
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Post by Dan on Jan 13, 2016 18:00:12 GMT
I've sat down and scribbled before and you can easily get a Panthers yearly turnover of at least £2m with I reckon costs around £1m. The average player salary is about £700 per week or £15k ish per week for the squad,arena costs £14k per game. Do the maths somebody and see what you get to,there are only two really big costs,players and arena hire. Believe me,Mr Black is making a lot of money from Panthers ! We can always 'do the maths' with fag-packet numbers. They could be dramatically wrong though, that's kinda the point. I'd like to see some confirmation or facts. Your last point is probably true though, but so? It's his club and he's hardly running us on a shoestring.
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Post by PantherG on Jan 13, 2016 18:47:54 GMT
I think they will make a good profit. I doubt its as easy to work out as Iginla suggests, but if it was not making a good profit then I doubt Neil Black would own us. Anyone who doesn't think that the Panthers make a VERY good profit really doesn't have a grip on simple arithmetic as it's not really rocket science. I am sure that a lot of money has gone into proping up other teams over the years plus the Clan start up and it looks like a London start up now in the off season. London team is not starting now until the 2017/18 season as they need a northern team to balance the conference. Of course if Edinburgh fold that might change.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 13, 2016 19:00:12 GMT
Anyone who doesn't think that the Panthers make a VERY good profit really doesn't have a grip on simple arithmetic as it's not really rocket science. I am sure that a lot of money has gone into proping up other teams over the years plus the Clan start up and it looks like a London start up now in the off season. London team is not starting now until the 2017/18 season as they need a northern team to balance the conference. Of course if Edinburgh fold that might change. It will still go in the London piggy bank no matter when it starts
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2016 19:35:31 GMT
If Corey is given a priority of 'Win a trophy, any trophy' then again the priority is wrong. With the crowds & subsequent money the Panthers rake in we should be consistently challenging for & winning the league title. There is no right and wrong as to what priority is given to the coaching staff Eh? Of course there is!! If the priority of the club isn't to win the league every year then the priority is totally wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2016 9:00:33 GMT
There is no right and wrong as to what priority is given to the coaching staff Eh? Of course there is!! If the priority of the club isn't to win the league every year then the priority is totally wrong. No there really isn't. Last years priority would have been to have a good showing in the CHL, by all accounts we did that. Year before the priority would have been a good showing in the Continental Cup, by all accounts we did that. It has long been known that Neil Black has always had a desire for the Panthers to compete in Europe, I have no doubt that is clearly where he would have told Corey to put his focus the last 2 years. As I have stated previously, this year yes the league should be the priority. BUT if it isn't, and Corey is just tasked with winning 1 of the 3 major trophies by the powers above who are we to judge him if he doesn't deliver the one we desire the most? We can grumble yes, but if he's meeting objectives that are set for him we can't really blame him. As a club we are treated more like a business than a sports franchise, we know this going in, it's not a hidden element to supporting the Nottingham Panthers. We have a website that's geared to the casual fan, social media that's geared to the casual fan, we have a team that more often than not produces entertaining hockey... All of these things lead to people coming through the door and if crowds are on the up as I have read somewhere on here previously then the business is being ran well at the end of the day. Are there things that could be done better? Absolutely. Everything everywhere could be done better. Are we at a stage where we should be stood outside the NIC with picket signs? Absolutely not, it's not as if Neil Black is re-investing what we as fans spend on the Panthers into clubbing baby seals. The money is going into his pocket and into his other enterprises, be that the Braehead Clan or the rumoured London franchise. It really has nothing to do with me what happens with my cash once I have parted with it. We have a finacially stable & competitive club that often produces entertaining hockey. Forgive me for not wanting to burn the organisation to the ground.
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Post by Rob Scott on Jan 14, 2016 9:13:18 GMT
Eh? Of course there is!! If the priority of the club isn't to win the league every year then the priority is totally wrong. No there really isn't. Last years priority would have been to have a good showing in the CHL, by all accounts we did that. Year before the priority would have been a good showing in the Continental Cup, by all accounts we did that. It has long been known that Neil Black has always had a desire for the Panthers to compete in Europe, I have no doubt that is clearly where he would have told Corey to put his focus the last 2 years. As I have stated previously, this year yes the league should be the priority. BUT if it isn't, and Corey is just tasked with winning 1 of the 3 major trophies by the powers above who are we to judge him if he doesn't deliver the one we desire the most? We can grumble yes, but if he's meeting objectives that are set for him we can't really blame him. As a club we are treated more like a business than a sports franchise, we know this going in, it's not a hidden element to supporting the Nottingham Panthers. We have a website that's geared to the casual fan, social media that's geared to the casual fan, we have a team that more often than not produces entertaining hockey... All of these things lead to people coming through the door and if crowds are on the up as I have read somewhere on here previously then the business is being ran well at the end of the day. Are there things that could be done better? Absolutely. Everything everywhere could be done better. Are we at a stage where we should be stood outside the NIC with picket signs? Absolutely not, it's not as if Neil Black is re-investing what we as fans spend on the Panthers into clubbing baby seals. The money is going into his pocket and into his other enterprises, be that the Braehead Clan or the rumoured London franchise. It really has nothing to do with me what happens with my cash once I have parted with it. We have a finacially stable & competitive club that often produces entertaining hockey. Forgive me for not wanting to burn the organisation to the ground. An almost reasonable post ruined by a ridiculous last sentance.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2016 9:49:59 GMT
No there really isn't. Last years priority would have been to have a good showing in the CHL, by all accounts we did that. Year before the priority would have been a good showing in the Continental Cup, by all accounts we did that. It has long been known that Neil Black has always had a desire for the Panthers to compete in Europe, I have no doubt that is clearly where he would have told Corey to put his focus the last 2 years. As I have stated previously, this year yes the league should be the priority. BUT if it isn't, and Corey is just tasked with winning 1 of the 3 major trophies by the powers above who are we to judge him if he doesn't deliver the one we desire the most? We can grumble yes, but if he's meeting objectives that are set for him we can't really blame him. As a club we are treated more like a business than a sports franchise, we know this going in, it's not a hidden element to supporting the Nottingham Panthers. We have a website that's geared to the casual fan, social media that's geared to the casual fan, we have a team that more often than not produces entertaining hockey... All of these things lead to people coming through the door and if crowds are on the up as I have read somewhere on here previously then the business is being ran well at the end of the day. Are there things that could be done better? Absolutely. Everything everywhere could be done better. Are we at a stage where we should be stood outside the NIC with picket signs? Absolutely not, it's not as if Neil Black is re-investing what we as fans spend on the Panthers into clubbing baby seals. The money is going into his pocket and into his other enterprises, be that the Braehead Clan or the rumoured London franchise. It really has nothing to do with me what happens with my cash once I have parted with it. We have a finacially stable & competitive club that often produces entertaining hockey. Forgive me for not wanting to burn the organisation to the ground. An almost reasonable post ruined by a ridiculous last sentance. Care to explain why?
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Dan
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Post by Dan on Jan 14, 2016 9:52:34 GMT
This entire thread strikes me of being careful what you wish for. I don't think NYR's comment is off the mark at all. We are safe in a turbulent market, we're ALWAYS competitive and frequently entertaining. We might want more but we have no divine right to win everything.
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Post by Thomas Elliott on Jan 14, 2016 9:53:28 GMT
We might want more but we have no divine right to win everything. We don't!?!?
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Shorty
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Post by Shorty on Jan 14, 2016 11:14:52 GMT
I think missing out on Europe this season would have annoyed Black, and could imagine that is his priority this season.
We do not know if two places will be in CHL next season yet, so either winning the league or the challenge cup is pretty much the two routes open to him.
Winning the league should be the primary objective as it guarantees entry in to the most prestigious European competition.
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Dan
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Post by Dan on Jan 14, 2016 11:38:07 GMT
I don't even really want us in the CHL. The conti cup was so much more competitive and entertaining.
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Post by cjmatt42 on Jan 14, 2016 14:17:15 GMT
This entire thread strikes me of being careful what you wish for. I don't think NYR's comment is off the mark at all. We are safe in a turbulent market, we're ALWAYS competitive and frequently entertaining. We might want more but we have no divine right to win everything. I accept that we have no right to win everything but it's difficult to argue we are always "Competitive" although I guess this depends on personal opinion. For me for the resources we have at our disposal we definitely aren't competitive enough. While the dates and winning streak calculations might be slightly out as it's not always clear what is a Challenge Cup game but even still this says we clearly "aren't" competitive when it comes to the competition our season ticket covers. I've taken a look at the league tables worked out how far off the leaders we were and worked back the fixture list to see when we could have lost our last game that season in order to have won the title effectively giving a winning streak we would have had to go on in order to have won the title. 2010/11 Season - 15 Points behind - Last defeat to win league 08/01/11 winning streak to have won league 23 games. 2011/12 Season - 15 Points behind - Last defeat to win league 17/12/12 winning streak to have won league 29 games. 2012/13 Season - Won by 6 points - Title won 15/03/13. 2013/14 Season - 32 Points behind - Last defeat to win league 14/12/13 winning streak to have won league 32 games. 2014/15 Season - 9 Points behind - Last defeat to win league 22/02/14 winning streak to have won league 10 games. So over 5 seasons we were an average of 13 points off the leaders, only the grand slam season have we gone into the last month effectively anywhere near a chance of winning. Since the inception of the conference system the average points to win the league has been 83, we can reach a maximum of 80 points from here. Even the lowest winning total of Sheffield last year on 74 points leaves us needing 17 wins out of 20. This season like the majority of those previous is over in terms of the league title and to me that's the only competition I'm interested in. Now we are playing out 20 league games to find out the extent of our failings. Those performances above highlight a clear failure by the current management, coaching staff etc to make us a force where it matters. We are a mid table team that got plucky one year to defy the odds. Simply not good enough for a club running with the highest crowds in the league by 15 to 20% on average if the attendance figures on some stats sites are correct.
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Dan
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Post by Dan on Jan 14, 2016 14:28:59 GMT
Good stats, i always appreciate that. I still think that shows that we're competitive though. The points gap is usually due to us losing the title and phoning in the final weeks of the season to preserve strength for the play-offs. We've been in the chase for most of the season every season, and that's my definition of competitive.
I agree that coaching is the issue here. Not sure Corey would warrant another year if we end up empty-handed this year. My main crux is that it's not really the management of the club that's the problem.
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Post by Rob Scott on Jan 14, 2016 14:31:01 GMT
We haven't had a full compliment of imports on the ice ONCE this season.
Even after Black's comments in April (around season ticket renewal time).
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Post by tootootrain on Jan 14, 2016 15:28:14 GMT
I agree that coaching is the issue here. Not sure Corey would warrant another year if we end up empty-handed this year. My main crux is that it's not really the management of the club that's the problem. The two things aren't mutually exclusive. The management of Panthers are responsible for hiring and firing the coach, therefore any shortcomings in the coach are attributable to a management decision. The management of the Panthers is also responsible for funding the team. Neilson went into the season with one hand tied behind his back, with a very public statement being issued that the team would be running an import down, compared to our rivals. As it is the Panthers have never run anywhere near to a full quota of imports all season, putting the team on the back foot every time they step on the ice. Of course attempts were made to excuse this decision, with the 'depth' of our Brit pack being wheeled out. Unfortunately this is a Brit pack chock full of underperforming players and sick notes. Attempts to avow 'management' of being a problem fail to grasp how much of a control freak GM the GM is and thus how his decisions affect the entire organisation. The biggest team in the UK, in terms of fan base/regular attendance, should not be out of the title race consistently so early in the run in, especially considering far smaller teams (Cardiff and Coventry) have historically remained comparitively competitive to the end. Occasional seasons yes, but 34 out of 36? You can bleat about 'targets set' and also-ran trophies but in the UK only the league matters, everything else is a bonus. If Neil Black is so keen on Europe then he has been going about ensuring entry to the CHL/CC in a funny way, given that winning the league is the only surefire way of getting an invite to either. If 'management' are telling Neilson that any trophy is acceptable then they are a problem.
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Post by Yotes on Jan 14, 2016 15:40:26 GMT
We've been in the chase for most of the season every season, and that's my definition of competitive. I think that's a generous definition tbh mate, a competitive team should never reach the phoning it in stage. Look at last season, Cardiff, Braehead and Sheffield sorted it out in the final week, we'd been talking about "mathematically possible" for ages before then, even though we all knew realistically it was long over. I don't expect us to come out on top every year, or any year for that matter, but it'd be nice to be in the conversation every now and again when the league reaches its final knockings. We might still be this year, but I can't say I have much confidence at this point. I agree that I place the blame more on coaching, but Moran & Black can do something about that: (Good analysis cjmatt42 btw.)
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Dan
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Post by Dan on Jan 14, 2016 15:42:06 GMT
I think we're going round in circles to a degree here. All i'm saying is that until I see some kind of evidence that we're not spending what we can i'm going to look at the coaching being the issue. Corey had it right but whatever he had he seems to have lost.
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Post by tootootrain on Jan 14, 2016 17:21:55 GMT
...All i'm saying is that until I see some kind of evidence that we're not spending what we can i'm going to look at the coaching being the issue... m.nottinghampost.com/Nottingham-Panthers-poised-start-season-import/story-26864821-detail/story.htmlThat do you? Black and white, starting (started) the season an import down. With underperforming Brits and injuries taking their toll that lack of investment has magnified as the season has progressed. We can go around in circles arguing that "you can't plan for injuries etc" but the top and bottom of it is ice hockey is a physical sport and injuries are a fact. Indeed, the last couple of seasons should have strengthened that view, so do the 'management' who are apparently so blameless not learn from their past? Start an import down, pick up injuries, remaining players try and pick up the slack, more injuries occur due to players being overworked...rinse and repeat until season is over.
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