lee
David Clarke
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Post by lee on Jul 7, 2011 19:03:30 GMT
righttowork.org.uk/2011/07/demonstrate-to-save-bombardier-jobs-23rd-july/ The announcement that 1,400 jobs are to go at Bombardier’s factory will hit Derby & the midlands very hard. Not just because of the immediate jobs cull but also because of the 12,000 other jobs in smaller firms that are part of the supply chain in train manufacturing in the area. A march has been called for 23 July in derby, see link for details. It is a great start and should be supported by trade unionists of every stripe from across the region. It will take more than a march to save the jobs. We need a united fight back now! Contact Derby SWP to be part of the fight! enquiries@swp.org.uk
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 7, 2011 19:10:11 GMT
Right - and bringing Derby "to a standstill" is going to achieve exactly what? Apart from a shedload of disruption and more losses for local businesses? 1400 jobs are going at Bombardier because they didn't win this big contract - Siemens in Germany did. Apparently due to the fact that the Govt (the previous Govt as well, it has to be said) foollowed EU rules. So... why not toddle off over to Strasbourg and protest there?  |
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lee
David Clarke
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Post by lee on Jul 7, 2011 19:20:44 GMT
Right - and bringing Derby "to a standstill" is going to achieve exactly what? Apart from a shedload of disruption and more losses for local businesses? 1400 jobs are going at Bombardier because they didn't win this big contract - Siemens in Germany did. Apparently due to the fact that the Govt (the previous Govt as well, it has to be said) foollowed EU rules. So... why not toddle off over to Strasbourg and protest there? what a ridiculous comment you obviously know the facts i see... i work at bombardier and luckily my jobs not affected by this, but there are many that are... and there will be more through the supply chain. the march won't stop people shopping and spending their credit cards, but it will raise the profile of the ridiculous decision the government has made. its not a fact that the government followed specific eu procurement rules here, they took a very blinkered and short sighted view on the impact of the awarding of this contract. If they followed EU open procurement guidelines so well as you seem to suggest and its as simple as that maybe you can explain how French and german governments always manage to protect their own industries when making these decisions guided by the exact same rules and regulations? i'm not trying to force this on anyone, simply trying to bring it to the attention of any one who may think this decision is wrong and want to back these people who now face a very uncertain future. |
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me87
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Post by me87 on Jul 7, 2011 19:40:01 GMT
good luck Lee. I hope it goes well and showing support to your colleagues is a good move. Would be different if Shaggys job was at risk I bet. For god sake, a fellow panthers fan asks for a bit of help and get's pounced. Great 'community' almost as warm and friendly as the 'family' up the road.
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lee
David Clarke
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Post by lee on Jul 7, 2011 19:44:33 GMT
good luck Lee. I hope it goes well and showing support to your colleagues is a good move. Would be different if Shaggys job was at risk I bet. For god sake, a fellow panthers fan asks for a bit of help and get's pounced. Great 'community' almost as warm and friendly as the 'family' up the road. appreciated buddy! |
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Post by pantherdman on Jul 7, 2011 19:58:57 GMT
Absolutley disgraceful that they gave that contract to the Germans. Britain is the only country that plays by the rules in europe.
Get out of the EU, get out now and stay out IMO.
UK manufacturing is F'd, those in power would rather lick the backside of bankers than give the blue collored working man the time of day.
They're all bent, I'd rather go back to being an autocracy than have fake democracy tbh.
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Post by wheelsandsnipe on Jul 7, 2011 20:04:27 GMT
Sounds like the shoe is firmly on the other foot now something that Lee has an interest is in the public eye.
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lee
David Clarke
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Post by lee on Jul 7, 2011 20:05:54 GMT
Sounds like the shoe is firmly on the other foot now something that Lee has an interest is in the public eye. no. this has no link at all to public sector pensions, this is about a UK industry being destroyed / wiped out by our government ridiculous decision but i did wonder how long it would take for some smart alec to bring that up... good try! not that i want to detract at all from the real topic here but i wonder how many of our 1400 workers would settle for increased pension contributions over losing their job? Lets not also forget the impact this will have on our economy in the midlands... 12,000 people on the dole!! thats not to be sniffed at |
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Post by wheelsandsnipe on Jul 7, 2011 20:41:24 GMT
Different circumstances but you are trying to drum up support for the cause, something that you instantly dashed on the other topic.
Anyway, I agree with you, I find it disgraceful that another UK industry is being put out to pasture. And I support their right to show how displeased they are by marching.
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 7, 2011 21:47:31 GMT
what a ridiculous comment you obviously know the facts i see... i work at bombardier and luckily my jobs not affected by this, but there are many that are... and there will be more through the supply chain. the march won't stop people shopping and spending their credit cards, but it will raise the profile of the ridiculous decision the government has made. its not a fact that the government followed specific eu procurement rules here, they took a very blinkered and short sighted view on the impact of the awarding of this contract. If they followed EU open procurement guidelines so well as you seem to suggest and its as simple as that maybe you can explain how French and german governments always manage to protect their own industries when making these decisions guided by the exact same rules and regulations? i'm not trying to force this on anyone, simply trying to bring it to the attention of any one who may think this decision is wrong and want to back these people who now face a very uncertain future. good luck Lee. I hope it goes well and showing support to your colleagues is a good move. Would be different if Shaggys job was at risk I bet. For god sake, a fellow panthers fan asks for a bit of help and get's pounced. Great 'community' almost as warm and friendly as the 'family' up the road. Missing The Point Exactly what good is a plan to "bring Derby to a standstill" going to do? Raise public awareness? - fat lot of good that'll do - surely you aren't naive enough to think that the public will suddenly mobilise to force the Govt to do something? (and since when do politicians take any notice outside of election time anyway?) - and the public are already aware through media reports. In fact, I'm sure that people around Derby are already VERY aware! Marches & protests like this, by and large, do nothing constructive at all. Oh yes, they make people feel a bit better - "hey look, we're DOING something!" - without actually achieving anything... oh yes, and they help to 'justify' the existence of whatever union or protest group is organising it. All they usually end up doing is inconveniencing a load of people who have absolutely nothing to do with the issue, and who can't fight back themselves. Bringing Derby to a standstill is a good idea, is it? If you're so concerned about all the businesses in the area - how come you're advocating something that will hurt them? If you want to target the people responsible - why not actually target them? Go on... toddle off on down to London, if it's the British Govt you blame. Or if it's the EU... take a trip over to Strasbourg, make your feelings known directly to them. Oh wait... that actually means putting in some real effort, instead of keeping it conveniently local. Nah, let's just have a nice and easy feel-good protest... march and chant for a couple of hours, then pop down the pub. What does it matter if it doesn't actually achieve anything? Oh - and as regards the French & German govts protecting their own industries... personally I have no doubt that they bend and/or break the rules as it suits them. Wouldn't be the first time... the EU is as corrupt as all hell, and those two countries are right at the heart of it - have been from the start. Ah yes... and "Would be different if Shaggys job was at risk I bet". Actually, it would be different - as in, I work for a small-ish company, and if my job was at risk hardly anybody would notice or care. Striking, marches or whatever would be even more pointless. And whilst my job itself wasn't really at risk so much... this recession badly hurt my income (I work on basic plus commission) - which dropped by about a third. My job wasn't at risk... my home certainly was! So please... don't start preaching on that score - you're far from the only person who has had some harsh reality imposed on them lately... the difference is, most of us just buckle on down and work our way through it. |
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Post by sanjosefan on Jul 7, 2011 21:57:29 GMT
Shaggy you can be a right p rick at times
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 7, 2011 22:02:43 GMT
Shaggy you can be a right p rick at times Read the forum rules... no personal attacks. How about trying to debate the subject under discussion instead of a pathetic little niggle like that? Warned. Don't do it again - to anyone. |
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Post by sanjosefan on Jul 7, 2011 22:04:38 GMT
Shaggy you can be a right p rick at times Read the forum rules... no personal attacks. How about trying to debate the subject under discussion instead of a pathetic little niggle like that? Warned. Don't do it again - to anyone. Alright Dad. |
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Post by sanjosefan on Jul 7, 2011 22:27:24 GMT
This is very damaging for the East Midlands and Derby the UK desperately need this contract for Bombardier. It won't bring Derby to a stand still but will hurt Derby massively.
Shaggy public awareness is great. Look at the Panthers if they didn't advertise would the Panthers get 4000 fans through the gate? Would Ice Hockey in Nottingham be as popular? A friend of mine recently made a short 15min documentary about a homeless drop in centre, it was due to close, yet my mate showed various people the documentary and its now found the funding to stay open.
You (Shaggy) mention about buckling down and working through the storm. It must be very hard to concentrate on your job if it is under threat, people need to pay rent, mortgages, buy food pay bills, have children to care for. When you have these things running through your mind how can you concentrate on your job?
'and since when do politicians take any notice outside of election time anyway?' You'll be amazed I have a good relationship with my MP, he asks for my opinions I ask for his opinions so far I asked him about the Robin Hood Tax, something my local MP supports he often emails me giving me progress on when he mentions it to other MP's you have a blinkered view of MP's.
By offering the contract to the Germans we are creating a false economy, look in the 1940's the government invested in the public created the NHS, it created jobs so when you invest in something and you employ people they contribute a public service to the public and also contribute tax aswell.
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 7, 2011 22:56:36 GMT
STILL missing the point! I ask again - exactly what good will a march to "bring Derby to a standstill" do? This is very damaging for the East Midlands and Derby the UK desperately need this contract for Bombardier. Couldn't agree more. Are you seriously trying to equate a protest march to a business advertising to customers or a funding appeal from a charity? Talk about radically-different situations. Exactly what will 'public awareness' achieve in this case? Excuse me... do you think it was any easier for me when I was at real risk of losing my home due to a massively-reduced income? It was ruddy hard to concentrate on my job then, let me tell you! And I bet there are a hell of a lot more people on this very forum with similar (and undoubtedly worse) stories. I have a very cynical view of politicians (and I include MPs, ministers, PMs, councillors, political activists, protesters, trade unionists and journalists in that category - they all swim in the cess-pool of politics). That view comes from both direct personal experience and from observation at second hand. And guess what? - precedent and history would indicate that I'm right. I couldn't agree more. That's not the point I'm making. I completely agree that this is a totally unsatisfactory situation... I just completely disagree with the same old spinal-reflex call to 'march' and cause chaos for no appreciable positive result. Let me give you an example of what I mean... I forget exactly when this was (late 90s, I think)... but there was this protest in Nottingham city centre by a bunch of 'disabled rights' activists. They brought traffic to a standstill for hours blocking the roads with wheelchairs. All to make a point and 'raise awareness'. I was walking up Ilkeston Road, heading into town, walking past a huge queue of traffic that was completely immobilised. I still remember walking past this van belonging to what was obviously a small firm of caterers - the woman behind the wheel was on the phone to someone, and she was crying her eyes out. There were some delicate foodstuffs in the back that were on the way to a wedding or something... at least, they had been. From what she was saying, if the stuff didn't get there on time - that was it, they'd lose the contract and that was it - their business was finished. That's an example of what a lot of these protests and marches really do... they make a big noise (which gets ignored by the politicians and forgotten almost immediately by the media) and only serve at best to nark people off... and at worst, hurt them. Hurt innocent people's livelihoods - people who have nothing to do with whatever the issue is, and don't deserve what happens to them. You know what that is? - economic terrorism. Inconvenience, annoy and even hurt innocent people in the hope that this will blackmail someone else to do what you want. That is exactly what is being proposed here. Hey - if I thought a protest or a march would do any good (and NOT hurt innocents) - I'd be behind it completely. But it won't - so I'm not. Simple as. But people just seem to assume that marching or striking or protesting is The Right Thing ToDo (TM) - without actually thinking about it. |
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jul 7, 2011 23:06:32 GMT
So please... don't start preaching on that score - you're far from the only person who has had some harsh reality imposed on them lately... the difference is, most of us just buckle on down and work our way through it. How are those 1400 workers meant to buckle down when they've just lost their jobs? How does having 1400 more people (and the rest) on job seekers allowance help any of the rest of us? I don't believe for one second that the gov couldn't reverse the Siemens contract, perhaps it might cost a bit, but we build aircraft carriers that we'll never use and smash up brand new spy planes over here anyway, so that wouldn't make much of a mark. Will a march make a difference? Who knows, at least it'll show support for those guys looking at the scrapheap if nothing else. As a Derby man myself, although over here in enemy territory now (  ), I might have to head home on the 23rd and join in. |
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Post by sanjosefan on Jul 7, 2011 23:20:07 GMT
Look at the situation with the forests earlier in the year, a lot of people we're not happy with the idea of the con dem nation selling the forests, their for Cameron and his tea boy Clegg did a U turn, if enough people pull together and unite together and protest about this. The cronies may have another think.
Strike action it depends. I'm in favour of striking, as it is standing up to the bosses of whatever company or whatever policy that may come into action.
I remember that strike in the 90's with people with disabilities it was a worth while strike with what was being proposed at the time. Basically in the 80's the asylums we're shut down and residental care comes were introduced and in the 90's they wanted to re open some asylums. Which is horrific as a support worker myself, the service users are alot safer from harm in care homes than asylums
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me87
Jade Galbraith
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Post by me87 on Jul 8, 2011 5:57:27 GMT
Where else are they supposed to March? It's a Derbyshire company trying to get noticed by there community and gain support from local MP's. They should just buckle down? Who says they are not at the same time? It's not like the march is 24/7.
J-bone is right Shaggy, you can be really off with people and sometimes you don't allow other people an opinion and your posts feel if it's not your opinion it doesn't matter. Cynical of politicians you say? Cynical of anything that isn't your comment more like.
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 8, 2011 6:48:51 GMT
This is getting ridiculous... J-bone is right Shaggy, you can be really off with people and sometimes you don't allow other people an opinion and your posts feel if it's not your opinion it doesn't matter. Cynical of politicians you say? Cynical of anything that isn't your comment more like. What's wrong - can't take someone having a different opinion to yourself? Go on - explain exactly how I "don't allow other people an opinon" then. I'd be very interested to hear the reasoning behind that one. After all - have I personally insulted anyone on this thread? - no (but I've had that done to me, as you can plainly see. Doesn't that count as being "really off with people"? Hmmm?? ). Have I abused my Mod powers by editing or deleting anybody's comments? - no. Have I actually told anyone that they have no right to an opinion? - no. All I've done is disagree with people's opinions, put forward my own opinions, and actually offer reasoning to support said opinions. You know... exactly the kind of thing that a forum is designed for. Exactly the kind of thing that other people do. But somehow it's wrong when I do it? Why - just because I'm disagreeing with you? Oh dearie me, what a crime... And it would help if you actually read the content sometimes, as well:- I already answered that one... target your protests directly at the people involved in the decision-making process - the British Govt, the EU, whoever - not just take it out on the local people. You'd probably get more media coverage that way as well (more likely to get media types involved - camera crews, bigger-name correspondents, etc - involved if it's on their doorstep). I say yet again... what exactly is the point in a march to - and I quote - "bring Derby to a standstill" supposedly in support of Derbyshire businesses and Derbyshire people, when such an action is only going to inconvenience them, annoy them and probably cause economic harm? You want support of local MPs? - you've already got it! Just read this:- www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14036483Margaret Beckett - MP for Derby South - is already on the case. You can bet she's not the only one... no MP is going to ignore something like this. Marching or protesting or whatever just for the sake of it... it's pointless. All that does is feed people's delusions that they're actually doing something (well, they usually are doing something - making a bad situation worse!). Target your protests at those who actually make the decisions, don't just nake a mess in your own back yeard because you can't be bothered to put the effort in to go elsewhere. |
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lee
David Clarke
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Post by lee on Jul 8, 2011 7:48:32 GMT
shaggy, the point is...
you say you agree that the decision was wrong. you say you know the MPs are wrong here, and thats the point of the thread... raise awareness of this and to show what some people are doing to try and create enough fuss something may be done, either the contract will be suspended and re-bid, OR the future contracts will be conducted differently, and some of them could be accelerated to bring more work in and secure some jobs.
this is not a thread to debate if the march is right or wrong. its trying to raise awareness...
what exactly are you hoping to achieve by arguing that its wrong? Don't worry, i've got plenty of strategic meetings today, as i'm walking through the shop floor where all these guys work kicking out 600 trains a year (you could say knuckling down and gettin on eh?) i'll let them know that the almighty Shaggy on the cage forum says their march is a waste of time... maybe they'll change thier minds...
i'll keep you posted.
just to pick you up on the knuckling down point and getting on with their jobs... what you don't seem to understands (and i'm sure you'll be the first to correct me here that you do)... if the workers do knuckle down and continue to work which they are doing and under the cicrumstances they are doing a fantastic job to keep productions at the level they are... every time one of those trains goes out the door its one less in the order book and one step closer to having no job... so its not a simple as saying just get on with it.
usually i respect your posts Shaggy as well thought out and productive towards a good debate, but i just cannot get on board with your insistent approach here and i think your well out of line. You are more than welcome to disagree with it, but you've made your point now.. let others have a say, maybe some people will feel strongly enough about it to jump on board and offer some support to the UK train manufacturing industry....if one person comes along then the threads done its job.
you may say i had a different approach over the teacher strikes but your wrong, i never said they don't have the right to protest, what i said was i didn't agree with what they were protesting about. like i've said previously, i'm sure all these workers would rather take a pay cut than lose their jobs.
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Post by sanjosefan on Jul 8, 2011 8:56:57 GMT
Shaggy do you feel a bit silly now for writing and then writing this
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Post by wheelsandsnipe on Jul 8, 2011 9:03:14 GMT
The double standards and hypocrisy is rife in this thread. It seems that it's ok to completely dash an idea until it similar circumstances affect you. What a joke.
To jump on someone like the main offenders have, for simply having an opinion and the confrontational attitude is what I would expect, to paraphrase one of the guilty party, of them up north ( even though I hate ridiculous statements like that).
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Post by james1977 on Jul 8, 2011 9:45:05 GMT
Yeah, race towards the bottom.
Private company employees have weak (or no) unions and have sold their pensions/benefits down the river -> quick attack public sector employees, covert thy neigbours ox.....
Private company employees face redundancy -> woe is us, support us, help us, etc, etc, etc.
As it happens I'm fairly left-wing, I'm a union member and just the other week was stood side-by-side with my wife when she and her union went out on strike. I'm a supporter of all unionism and am keen to protect workers rights in both the public and private sectors but its a little galling how one week many private sector employees decryed teachers etc for utilising their right to withdraw labour yet the following week one of those private sector employees is attempting to rally support for his 'cause'.
Private sector employees need to stop swallowing the divide and conquer misinformation spewed out by the media, stand together and strengthen their unions and push for a rise to pay and condition parity with the public sector, rather wishing they'd join you in a race to the bottom. Unfortunately this would require people to think about people other than themselves and if private sector employees were still truely capable of this their unions wouldn't be in the poor state they are.
As for the issues with the train contract, I do have sympathy for those involved and agree that countries such as France and Germany only seem to play by the EU rules when it suits them. Perhaps though thats because both Fance and Germany have very strong trade union movements, where both public and private sector unions support each other, and as such if those countries were to send such large contracts off-shore they'd no doubt be action taken across the board.
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Post by Number 9.1 on Jul 8, 2011 9:53:13 GMT
Shaggy you can be a right p rick at times Read the forum rules... no personal attacks. How about trying to debate the subject under discussion instead of a pathetic little niggle like that? Warned. Don't do it again - to anyone.
Out of order #9.1, and you very nearly got a straight ban for that. I changed my mind at the last minute. |
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Doughnut
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Post by Doughnut on Jul 8, 2011 10:02:49 GMT
Shaggy, give up, you're wasting your energy, they're not listening.
What you need to remember is that something must be done, marching is something, therefore marching must be done.
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), I might have to head home on the 23rd and join in.