Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jul 8, 2011 10:29:10 GMT
Shaggy, give up, you're wasting your energy, they're not listening. What you need to remember is that something must be done, marching is something, therefore marching must be done. So what would be better? Do nothing? Bus a few people down to Westminster for the Met to martial? Perhaps the people of Derby aren't too impressed with this decision and would like to express that in their own city?
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Post by sanjosefan on Jul 8, 2011 10:35:04 GMT
Shaggy, give up, you're wasting your energy, they're not listening. What you need to remember is that something must be done, marching is something, therefore marching must be done. So what would be better? Do nothing? Bus a few people down to Westminster for the Met to martial? Perhaps the people of Derby aren't too impressed with this decision and would like to express that in their own city? Also if the good folk from Derby went to London you're then playing into their hands. Its an issue for Derby protest where the incident is happening an not go to their front door in Lonon.
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Doughnut
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Post by Doughnut on Jul 8, 2011 10:35:16 GMT
Shaggy, give up, you're wasting your energy, they're not listening. What you need to remember is that something must be done, marching is something, therefore marching must be done. So what would be better? Do nothing? Bus a few people down to Westminster for the Met to martial? Perhaps the people of Derby aren't too impressed with this decision and would like to express that in their own city? Still missing the point. I think there are better ways to express displeasure than by bringing your own city to a standstill. Protest somewhere high profile that will raise awareness without stopping ordinary folk (many of whom probably support the cause) from going about their daily lives. I don't know Derby that well, but if it was Nottingham for example I'd say have a protest on Market Square rather than blocking Parliament St, Maid Marian Way, etc. Let's try this from another angle. Try listing the pros and cons of marching on Derby over this.
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Post by sanjosefan on Jul 8, 2011 10:39:22 GMT
Shaggy, give up, you're wasting your energy, they're not listening. What you need to remember is that something must be done, marching is something, therefore marching must be done. I whole heartedly disagree with you Doughnut. We are reading and taking into account what Shaggy say's. We just don't agree with what he says. IMO is echos with what is wrong with the country at the moment. This deal doesn't effect Shaggy one bit. However if it did effect Shaggy's work I'd expect him to have signed a petition I'd imagine him to be on strike, and also handing out twix's to the others on strike.
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jul 8, 2011 10:40:37 GMT
How do you know that won't be what's happening? I've not seen this phrase "bring Derby to a standstill" anywhere, other than Shaggy's posts. The link Lee put up never mentions it, and says they're discussing a route etc with the relevant authorities. It's hardly civil disobedience is it.
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Doughnut
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Post by Doughnut on Jul 8, 2011 11:02:03 GMT
How do you know that won't be what's happening? I've not seen this phrase "bring Derby to a standstill" anywhere, other than Shaggy's posts. The link Lee put up never mentions it, and says they're discussing a route etc with the relevant authorities. It's hardly civil disobedience is it. I don't know the details of their plans, but they're planning a march. Marches and other protests that use busy roads cause disruption, usually significant disruption. I just don't see how the pros can outweigh the cons. They're planning to inconvenience their fellow citizens of Derby at great cost to their own police force and council, a cost that will ultimately be borne by them and their fellow citizens of Derby as council tax payers. All I'm saying (and I think it's all Shaggy was trying to say) is that I don't think they will achieve enough to warrant the cost and inconvenience to the rest of Derby. Note: I'm not saying they don't deserve support. I'm not saying they don't have a right to protest. I'm not saying the government shouldn't be having a good think about if there's a better way forward. I'm not saying the contract should or shouldn't have gone to the Germans instead of the Canadians (I don't know enough about the situation to judge that). Try listing the pros and cons of marching on Derby over this.
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lee
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Post by lee on Jul 8, 2011 11:48:02 GMT
just to re-iterate, this thread is NOT about if the march is wrong or right or where it should be held. it IS happening in DERBY, for those that want to support here are the details ... AGAIN the term "bring Derby to a stand still has been uttered by some in the march... i don't think it will. its simply terminology used by angry people. forget that aspect. just another point to note at those saying there is hypocrisy in this thread. there is a HUGE difference between a MARCH and a STRIKE! noone has mentioned that the Derby Rail workers are going on Strike here... this is a weekend and its in their own time. righttowork.org.uk/2011/07/demonstrate-to-save-bombardier-jobs-23rd-july/The announcement that 1,400 jobs are to go at Bombardier’s factory will hit Derby & the midlands very hard. Not just because of the immediate jobs cull but also because of the 12,000 other jobs in smaller firms that are part of the supply chain in train manufacturing in the area. A march has been called for 23 July in derby, see link for details. It is a great start and should be supported by trade unionists of every stripe from across the region. It will take more than a march to save the jobs. We need a united fight back now! Contact Derby SWP to be part of the fight! enquiries@swp.org.uk
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Doughnut
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Post by Doughnut on Jul 8, 2011 12:01:14 GMT
just to re-iterate, this thread is NOT about if the march is wrong or right or where it should be held. The OP informed us of the march, the thread is discussing the march (and in doing so is actually helping to raise awareness of your cause by keeping the thread active). I don't think anyone has even actually argued against your cause, just your chosen method of protest. I think we're free to do that.
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lee
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Post by lee on Jul 8, 2011 12:05:36 GMT
fair enough. A massive thanks to those that are willing to offer their support.
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Post by pantherdman on Jul 8, 2011 12:07:45 GMT
Give em hell Lee!
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 8, 2011 12:17:46 GMT
How do you know that won't be what's happening? I've not seen this phrase "bring Derby to a standstill" anywhere, other than Shaggy's posts. The link Lee put up never mentions it, and says they're discussing a route etc with the relevant authorities. It's hardly civil disobedience is it. The reason you've only see that phrase in my posts - the phrase which happens to be at the very core of what I was objecting to - is because Lee's post was conveniently edited after the fact:- Initial post timed at 8:03pm My initial reply at 8:10pm Lee's edit of his original post at 8:23pm Clear for all to see... Lee - that's nothing more than deceit on your part.
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Post by james1977 on Jul 8, 2011 12:26:31 GMT
just another point to note at those saying there is hypocrisy in this thread. there is a HUGE difference between a MARCH and a STRIKE! Indeed there is difference between marching and striking but they are both legitimate and legal tools that unions can use. Of course in the public sector many unions will support each other, such as many CWU members refusing to cross NUT/PCS picket lines the other week, they were supporting the ATL/NUT and PCS' right to withdraw their labour. If you are a union member I just want to ask you something. When was the last time you went out in support of another union? When was the last time you went out in support of members of the same union who work for a different company? As you say, a march is different from a strike but doing a march at a weekend in your own time is not somehow 'better' than doing a strike in work's time. Indeed it could be argued striking during the working week and losing a day's pay over it shows more resolve than popping down to Derby city centre on a weekend instead of doing the shopping. I hope your march goes well and you get whatever you want from it but perhaps you should consider before you next shoot off about public sector workers going on strike that unionism is supposed to be about solidarity, across all walks of life and employers. The "I'm alright Jack/bloody teachers causing me problems" attitude previously displayed might have seemed great at the time but here we are, not so far down the line, and its you and your colleagues who are looking for support. Solidarity, its a very simple concept.
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lee
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Post by lee on Jul 8, 2011 13:06:31 GMT
I'm not a union member, and AGAIN let me point out I was never against the action of a strike I simply didn't support the cause of the strike being pensions in the public sector, again I point out, for those that don't support the march that's fine for those that do, thank you
And shaggy, yes it was in the original copy and paste I did from the website. After you pointed that bit out I removed it from the post so the conversation didn't focus on that tiny bit and because I didn't agree with that statement. No deceipt at all otherwise I wouldn't post this.
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Post by james1977 on Jul 8, 2011 13:09:13 GMT
Ah oh well. Any idea what union membership figures are like at Bombardier?
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lee
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Post by lee on Jul 8, 2011 13:13:09 GMT
Nope sorry, I don't deal with them directly and as I'm not a member I don't have much detail on them. It's more the shop floor guys than those in finance.
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Post by james1977 on Jul 8, 2011 13:35:12 GMT
Nope sorry, I don't deal with them directly and as I'm not a member I don't have much detail on them. It's more the shop floor guys than those in finance. Have you never been a union member then?
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lee
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Post by lee on Jul 8, 2011 13:47:14 GMT
Nope sorry, I don't deal with them directly and as I'm not a member I don't have much detail on them. It's more the shop floor guys than those in finance. Have you never been a union member then? Only students union
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seedy
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Post by seedy on Jul 9, 2011 1:02:48 GMT
Being a worker in derby I support this. I agree with a march, I dont agree with distruption, sure the idea of a march is rally people to your cause and raise awareness... not pi$$ them off.
Bombardier have effectively been screwed over by the previous governemtn, if this country is serious about protecting british jobs and manufacturing then they need to reverse the decision.
Bombardier make 1400 redundant now, the rest to follow in 2014 by the saounds of things when the otehr smaller contracts end.
ANother large employer in the city, Egg/Citi/Barclays have just made a further 350 redundant (me included), or will be as of November with another 300 odd to follow. THe prospects of citi retaining the site is slim, they are already reducing headcount due to off shoring/relocation to other sites as they look to pull out of the uk markets (except their wealth management and investments)
All in all in under a year there are gonna be around 2000 people made redundant in a small city in a very short space of time. The govenment can half that number by growing a pair and telling EU laws where they can shove it, ITaly, France, Germany barely outsource their manufacturing in similar circumstances.
The whole decison just seems ill advised.
As for comparing this to public/private debate and whether I should support someone who is effectively having their benifits cut to be inline with the majority of the UK workforce... i dont see how this is comparable at all.
Im not saying by not joining the march people are not agreeing with the cause, however I fail to see how anyone can say that the cause isnt justified and worth while.
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lee
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Post by lee on Jul 22, 2011 11:01:04 GMT
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oldman
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Post by oldman on Jul 22, 2011 20:04:39 GMT
Can anyone see any other country in the European Union, giving a contract like that away to another country we are simply a soft touch that plays it fair while the likes of the French and Germans will always protect their own workers!
I can certainly agree and support the anger felt in Derby and if it inconvenienced anybody well thats democracy for you!
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