Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2006 13:57:23 GMT
I can't believe, I just can't believe that two years down the line John Craighead has turned up in a thread again.
This was a player who undid all his spectacular achievements on the ice with his antics off the ice, away from the public eye, which culminated in his actively seeking to undermine the coach in the period just before and just after his release.
Such a shame. He could have been a legend.
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Post by newham on Nov 7, 2006 15:08:22 GMT
That middle paragraph is exactly why he will keep being talked about Stef.
Oh and Twix, so he was only brilliant for the first half of the first season? Am i the only one who remembers his hat-trick in the play-off semi final? He may have been an arse but his on-ice ability was incredible.
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Post by colson on Nov 7, 2006 20:33:26 GMT
Personally, I am not unhappy with Lindsay, as I believe he is a solid shot-stopper, who just gets on with his job without the flambuoyancy/eccentricity that perhaps Panthers fans have become accustomed to with previous netties. This is a very good point. Many people seem to equate good tending with someone who moves around in the net alot (flips and flops and scrambles), makes the easy saves look hard (big flourish on a glove save) and loses his temper and puts on a show. Lindsay's style is at the opposite end of the scale and he doesn't seem concerned with showboating for the fans. I like it.
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twix
Lorne Smith
Posts: 754
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Post by twix on Nov 8, 2006 12:53:14 GMT
That middle paragraph is exactly why he will keep being talked about Stef. Oh and Twix, so he was only brilliant for the first half of the first season? Am i the only one who remembers his hat-trick in the play-off semi final? He may have been an arse but his on-ice ability was incredible. Please read what I've put rather than what you are expecting to read. Nowhere did I say that he didn't have great INDIVIDUAL ability to be an ice hockey player. However his on-ice ability was not incredible in my opinion. On-ice ability in terms of a hockey team means being able to play as part of that team . He couldn't. From xmas on in his first season with us I (and many others) became disillusioned with him as he appeared to set out to systematically destroy the team both on and off the ice. Being able to score great goals shows he had the potential to be a great player. Doing so only when he was in the mood and then destroying that good by doing stupid stuff and not supporting his team on the ice and causing discontent off the ice shows that he never met that potential. One person doesn't make a team but it can wreck one. That's why I (and many others) were horrified when it was announced the Panthers had re-signed him. As you said "he may be an arse". There's no place for 'arse's' in a team game. Such a waste of talent.
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Post by newham on Nov 8, 2006 13:07:27 GMT
That middle paragraph is exactly why he will keep being talked about Stef. Oh and Twix, so he was only brilliant for the first half of the first season? Am i the only one who remembers his hat-trick in the play-off semi final? He may have been an arse but his on-ice ability was incredible. Please read what I've put rather than what you are expecting to read. Nowhere did I say that he didn't have great INDIVIDUAL ability to be an ice hockey player. However his on-ice ability was not incredible in my opinion. On-ice ability in terms of a hockey team means being able to play as part of that team . He couldn't. From xmas on in his first season with us I (and many others) became disillusioned with him as he appeared to set out to systematically destroy the team both on and off the ice. Being able to score great goals shows he had the potential to be a great player. Doing so only when he was in the mood and then destroying that good by doing stupid stuff and not supporting his team on the ice and causing discontent off the ice shows that he never met that potential. One person doesn't make a team but it can wreck one. That's why I (and many others) were horrified when it was announced the Panthers had re-signed him. As you said "he may be an arse". There's no place for 'arse's' in a team game. Such a waste of talent. If you truly believe that Craighead was the only problem off the ice, i suggest you speak to more people from the organisation that season. Half of the team were unhappy and more than a few were causing trouble. I'm not happy with the way JC always used to get all the criticism for the obvious flaws in the dressing room when more often than not it was a fans favourite that was kicking up the majority of the fuss. Your other point that i disagreed with was: Now, that's not me expecting you to write that, it's what you wrote and that's what i replied about. I think this is a dis-service to the work he did that season. Sure, in Feb he had a down-turn in form (even Jinman did at times) but he came back towards the play-offs with gusto, culminating in the performance of the season against Manchester in the play-offs. His second season was undoubtedly disappointing but you can't argue with what he produced in the first. 39+30 suggests to me it was a little more than half a good season.
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twix
Lorne Smith
Posts: 754
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Post by twix on Nov 8, 2006 13:21:49 GMT
Your other point that i disagreed with was: Now, that's not me expecting you to write that, it's what you wrote and that's what i replied about. I guess it's an interpretation thing! To me brilliant in that context means that everything about him was great. I only thought that upto xmas. After that I thought he was a great individual player but no longer did I think he was brilliant because there were too many other things that he did which weren't. That is why I said you read what you expected to read. Maybe I should have said interpreted in the way you wanted to interpret
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Post by newham on Nov 8, 2006 13:24:50 GMT
My head hurts
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twix
Lorne Smith
Posts: 754
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Post by twix on Nov 8, 2006 13:26:04 GMT
I think this is a dis-service to the work he did that season. Sure, in Feb he had a down-turn in form (even Jinman did at times) but he came back towards the play-offs with gusto, culminating in the performance of the season against Manchester in the play-offs. His second season was undoubtedly disappointing but you can't argue with what he produced in the first. 39+30 suggests to me it was a little more than half a good season. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. As you can tell from Stef's post I'm not the only who felt that his individual points production didn't make up for his defects. The only way I can explain it is everybody has different things they look for in a hockey player. Apart from points production, he didn't have the things I look for such as fitting into a team, helping team spirit etc.
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twix
Lorne Smith
Posts: 754
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Post by twix on Nov 8, 2006 13:26:38 GMT
My head hurts I have that effect on people
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Post by newham on Nov 8, 2006 13:52:16 GMT
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. As you can tell from Stef's post I'm not the only who felt that his individual points production didn't make up for his defects. The only way I can explain it is everybody has different things they look for in a hockey player. Apart from points production, he didn't have the things I look for such as fitting into a team, helping team spirit etc. Aye, Craighead isn't an argument people will always agree on. My point is that he made the points, for all his defects he did still lead the side. There are plenty more you could point the finger at who were just as problematic and didn't put the points up *cough* cadotte*cough*
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Post by jaycourtney on Nov 8, 2006 15:27:50 GMT
Oh my days!Can please stop having a right go at Mr. Black. The guy's doing nothing wrong. His a buissness man of course he wants to make profits. This man has pumped thousands upon thousands of pounds into the Panthers he must be a desperate as anyone to see some more silverware down here in Nottingham. His tryed to make Nottingham have a very successful team by resigning Paul Adey after the challenge cup winning team, signed Mike Blaidsdell the 'winningest coach in Britian' and Mike Ellis whos won the double at a lower level.
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Post by texpef on Nov 8, 2006 15:47:31 GMT
ERm Jay, i think you will actually find he has took thousands of pounds OUT of the panthers wouldnt be much of a businessman if he didnt would he now....Why would he care whether panthers are successful or not, as you said he isnt a fan of hockey or panthers but a businessman pure and simple. Now this isnt having a go at NB just the reality of what we have in nottingham, i dont blame him for wanting to make a profit on his investment and business BUT given thats what it is what is his incentive to win cups IF as stated elsewhere he is making plenty of money already? Teams that have won trophies always have seemed in the past to have had owners that are both hockey fans and secondly fans of their respective clubs. Some of these clubs may may not survived in that era and replaced by others but at least they have trophies to show.... read into that whatever you will....
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Post by newham on Nov 8, 2006 16:14:24 GMT
Oh my days!Can please stop having a right go at Mr. Black. The guy's doing nothing wrong. His a buissness man of course he wants to make profits. This man has pumped thousands upon thousands of pounds into the Panthers he must be a desperate as anyone to see some more silverware down here in Nottingham. His tryed to make Nottingham have a very successful team by resigning Paul Adey after the challenge cup winning team, signed Mike Blaidsdell the 'winningest coach in Britian' and Mike Ellis whos won the double at a lower level. Did anyone mention Black?
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Post by grumpyminer on Nov 9, 2006 2:09:31 GMT
ERm Jay, i think you will actually find he has took thousands of pounds OUT of the panthers wouldnt be much of a businessman if he didnt would he now....Why would he care whether panthers are successful or not, as you said he isnt a fan of hockey or panthers but a businessman pure and simple. Now this isnt having a go at NB just the reality of what we have in nottingham, i dont blame him for wanting to make a profit on his investment and business BUT given thats what it is what is his incentive to win cups IF as stated elsewhere he is making plenty of money already? Teams that have won trophies always have seemed in the past to have had owners that are both hockey fans and secondly fans of their respective clubs. Some of these clubs may may not survived in that era and replaced by others but at least they have trophies to show.... read into that whatever you will.... I have to say, I would like to see the Panthers pick up some silverware but not to such an extent that they go bust or require new owners/re-financing every season like some other hockey clubs. Or would you rather win all the trophies next season, then have to watch another hockey team cos Nottingham doesn't have one!! Neil Black kept Panthers ticking at the end of the last century and as a businessman has a right to make money on his investment. Does it matter at all whether he has any incentive or any wish to win trophies? NO!! I would imagine that his incentive is the fact that a successful team ( i.e. one that wins trophies) is likely to get higher attendances and therefore a bigger profit.
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Shorty
Paul Adey
Still here for Private Messages
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Post by Shorty on Nov 9, 2006 8:55:12 GMT
What money issue, ? "If he can bankroll the team to travel to europe twice, he can afford two airfares for new incomng players surely. "
I think the money issues is not qualifying for the semi finals and ultimately the final and losing out on another pay day.
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Post by heja on Nov 9, 2006 12:27:08 GMT
ERm Jay, i think you will actually find he has took thousands of pounds OUT of the panthers wouldnt be much of a businessman if he didnt would he now....Why would he care whether panthers are successful or not, as you said he isnt a fan of hockey or panthers but a businessman pure and simple. Now this isnt having a go at NB just the reality of what we have in nottingham, i dont blame him for wanting to make a profit on his investment and business BUT given thats what it is what is his incentive to win cups IF as stated elsewhere he is making plenty of money already? Teams that have won trophies always have seemed in the past to have had owners that are both hockey fans and secondly fans of their respective clubs. Some of these clubs may may not survived in that era and replaced by others but at least they have trophies to show.... read into that whatever you will.... yeah he takes money out of the club, BUT i can almost garuntee he gives the team probably the most money out of any owner in this league. i wouldn't want niel black to stop doing what he does. he makes sure panthers don't go bust,
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Post by texpef on Nov 9, 2006 14:33:07 GMT
all in your opinion there eh heja... because of cause you just like anyone has absolutely no proof.....
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Rich
Paul Adey
Go hard or go home
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Post by Rich on Nov 9, 2006 15:19:45 GMT
I wudnt say its his opinion that Black has stopped us going bust...
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Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Nov 9, 2006 15:42:36 GMT
I wudnt say its his opinion that Black has stopped us going bust... Me neither - weren't the Panthers on the verge of bankruptcy when Neil Black bought them? He surely had to put a fair bit of money into them in those first few years... if it's true that he's making a profit now - well, we can't exactly begrudge him that, can we? After all - a business is there to make money, is it not? Without someone's cash coming in, we wouldn't have a club - so it seems a bit churlish to expect him to just give and not get anything back, yes? Neil Black's not perfect - I don't like his alleged attitude towards STs, and some of his public comments over the years have needed him gagging IMHO - but then again... who amongst us is perfect? We could do an awful lot worse - we only have to look at the past few years up the road to see proof of that.
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Rich
Paul Adey
Go hard or go home
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Post by Rich on Nov 9, 2006 16:11:34 GMT
I wudnt say its his opinion that Black has stopped us going bust... Me neither - weren't the Panthers on the verge of bankruptcy when Neil Black bought them? He surely had to put a fair bit of money into them in those first few years... if it's true that he's making a profit now - well, we can't exactly begrudge him that, can we? After all - a business is there to make money, is it not? Without someone's cash coming in, we wouldn't have a club - so it seems a bit churlish to expect him to just give and not get anything back, yes? Neil Black's not perfect - I don't like his alleged attitude towards STs, and some of his public comments over the years have needed him gagging IMHO - but then again... who amongst us is perfect? We could do an awful lot worse - we only have to look at the past few years up the road to see proof of that. For once I totally agree with Shaggy. And yes to say we were on the verge of going under is an understatement! During the time at the old rink he was making a loss knowing when we move to the new rink he would get it back, now hes doing that. Aslong as the team doesnt suffer and everyone gets what they need then I dont see a problem if he takes a bit home for himself. Not sure about last season but the year before werent we the only team to make a profit anyway? I wudnt expect that profit to be much at the end of that and its volatile because its all to easy for the team to start losing money at any time
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Post by texpef on Nov 9, 2006 17:12:34 GMT
he was not making a loss during last few years of old building, we had the cheapest team with the most expensive tickets for one thing, however i have never said i begrudge/resent NB making a profit to be honest i admire him investing in a sport that is generally not one businessmen invest in to get a return on their money generally hockey clubs are like chelsea to a lesser extent where it costs look at belfast for last few years...(and the ISL years although there were very strong rumours that panthers even made a profit during those years).
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Nov 9, 2006 17:18:42 GMT
he was not making a loss during last few years of old building, we had the cheapest team with the most expensive tickets for one thing, Well, that doesn't mean anything. London Racers had the cheapest team and the most expensive tickets a couple of years ago - and look what happened to them! (come on - surely nobody here believes that 'we had to close down because the rink wasn't suitable' guff....)
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Paul
Robert Lachowicz
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Post by Paul on Nov 9, 2006 17:24:07 GMT
he was not making a loss during last few years of old building, we had the cheapest team with the most expensive tickets for one thing, Well, that doesn't mean anything. London Racers had the cheapest team and the most expensive tickets a couple of years ago - and look what happened to them! (come on - surely nobody here believes that 'we had to close down because the rink wasn't suitable' guff....) True enough but the old building could & regularly did hold a lot more people than Lea Valley. Can I just point out that this doesn't mean in any way shape or form that I'm agreeing with Texpef.
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Post by KimThePanther on Nov 9, 2006 17:34:05 GMT
Me neither - weren't the Panthers on the verge of bankruptcy when Neil Black bought them? Yes we were. When the club was put up for sale I seem to remember reading that the debts were already quite significant and would have increased hugely by the time the NIC was ready to move into. Had it not been for the (very late) intervention of Black given the chronic financial problems which plagued the Superleague we wouldn't have lasted. Less than ten years later we're one of the most financially secure clubs in the league. We have to be greatful to him for that. In my opinion Black has given the Panthers more than enough backing to succeed on the ice. I hope he continues to. There are things he's done I haven't agreed with but I don't think he's the problem with the club. That lies further down the food chain.
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Post by texpef on Nov 9, 2006 20:43:37 GMT
thanks for the support eh paul..
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