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Post by asbo26 on Jun 12, 2008 14:38:07 GMT
All the talk on the new goalie thread can now be discussed here All last years juniors are no longer juniors the rules changed last year bringing the age down from 19 to 18
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Post by mattscold on Jun 12, 2008 14:43:35 GMT
As much as i like to see the young ones get a bit of ice time, i really don't see it is our job too develop them, take the Richardson brothers, gained experience in a lower league and then, when ready made the leap up to EIHL, did so! Its the same in any sport i can think off, we could even have like a draft system where we "sponsor" a younger player to ice for an EPL team to gain experience and we keep the rights to that player etc.
Edited due to missed out words lol
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Post by asbo26 on Jun 12, 2008 14:48:25 GMT
A limited amount of junior development is good for any team, it allows players to be rested etc when things are going good and it also give injury cover. And they would take any penalty minutes when necessary
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jun 12, 2008 14:54:55 GMT
I'm happy for the young lads to get a few minutes, and agree that it's important for both us and GB hockey in general, but there was a game or two toward the end of last season where they were icing from the off on the top lines, which wasn't really what I'd paid 15 quid to see.
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Post by sparta on Jun 12, 2008 15:01:37 GMT
I don't know what Junoir Development is, sounds French, so count me out.
;D
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Post by texpef on Jun 12, 2008 15:13:24 GMT
made me larf sparta!!!.... is that some reference to one of the new gladiators?...
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Wirral Panther
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Post by Wirral Panther on Jun 12, 2008 15:25:41 GMT
The only way clubs are goin to develop these kids for the eihl level is to play with players of a similar quality, and they are not goin to that @ the enl level. The epl and eihl have to merge or @ least form a development partniship, something like the nhl/ahl.
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Post by texpef on Jun 12, 2008 15:37:05 GMT
"In fact from that particular era of hockey Rich there is not a single player left playing for the panthers afaik and we had those players in the ISL era when all other clubs (including taits current club) loaded up with imports. So we had a weakened team compared to those (due to finance we were told at the time) and "blooded" these players only for them to either quit or as stated move to our rivals when their "stock" improved... makes you wonder if chequebook hockey in this country a la devils/steelers doesnt pay off....
It was great at the time to see the taits/hunties/waggies etc all trying their hardest to compete with the import loaded teams but look at the history books and see where all the trophies went?... "Kinda sums up what i now feel about development of the brits.. In nottm we fought against the onslaught of foreigners within the superleague but it was a losing battle with the bigger spending clubs loading their rosters with imports and dominating against lower spending teams who were forced to ice their cheaper (at the time) and lower grade british players. Yes it was nice to see huntie et al especially when they won against the grain but in all honesty with hindsight what benefit did it do for the panthers fans. Those british players who learnt their trade whilst playing for the panthers have now either moved on and won stuff with their new clubs ie tait or have quit the game altogether when they were finally driven out of the team with cheap imports taking their places ie waghorn.... For years it felt the panthers played their british players (in the ISL) when all around them had import loaded teams, when finally the panthers move to a more import loaded team, the ISL then folds soon after and all the good work in junior development was squandered away. This then gave a massive advantage to the teams that then came through from the lower leagues into the EIHL with british players such as coventry and newcastle... Even now very few ex ISL teams have their own junior development players playing for their teams, in fact i cant recall a single top 6 brit who is playing for his home grown team. Does this tell you that the bigger spending clubs just go out and buy in their british talent? It always was that way in the past, who can remember those well known junior development brits playing for sheffield in hand, longstaff and chinn?... It always was a nice feeling to see your local lads on the ice and it was especially gratifying when they did well in fact even now my favourite panthers player is still Simon Hunt however the question that needs asking really is can we play the young kids and still win enough games to win the league? As Milky always says (and i believe it to be true), ITS THE IMPORTS that win the games (for shaggy's benefit "mostly") and so if the imports are not on the ice the chances of winning games is reduced. IF the imports can do the business for the panthers then imho it should give the coach sufficient confidence then to bring along the youngsters which could make a roster space for them a possibilty in their own right... The next question is what happens when the panthers have trained a brit or two or more (laco, bullas, smith, graham et al) but do not have a roster space for them? Seems if we spread our training too wide it just gives players for our opponents... personally imho we should have spaces for the kids but narrow the numbers to only the best ones who are most likely to succeed and make sure they then stay in nottm. Imho this would give us the best return "for the panthers investment" in them...
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Rich
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Post by Rich on Jun 12, 2008 15:44:46 GMT
As I said, dont prioritise the brits. If Corey sees something in a player like Joe Graham bring him through. Dont just overload the bench with brits for the sake of it.
If you pay to watch ELITE hockey players you should get that. Id like to see Neil given more to do around the club but I think Lacko and Bullas etc will agree they arnt elite league yet. Ideally they should be going through the EPL first rather than playing ENL one week (which they are very good at and need to learn higher) then elite the next (where they arnt up to the standard yet).
If a guy is good enough he will make it. Theres the top brits like Clarke, Weaver,Longstaff etc but thanks to the 10/11 import rule there are still up to 10 slots per team for brits.
And for what its worth the guys mentioned will be quality players. Lacko has got the potential to be a 2nd liner definatly, Bullas will be around the same and Neilly could really make it. All good lads, iv played with most of them at some point but I dont want to pay £14 a week to watch them unless there is a point to it.
One more thought, if a guy is going to take 5 years to get up to a good standard, sign him up for 5 years. EG Joe Graham. One year hes on, he will be on the fringes then after a couple of years leave for the EPL or lower elite league team then maybe go to a top team again. Why not just sign him for 5 years, send him out "on loan" to EPL teams, let him still train and play ENL sometimes and truly develop him? If we are that serious about it, lets stop playing at it and do it properly
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Post by spik on Jun 12, 2008 15:46:45 GMT
That seems to be about it now. I would love to see many a british player but to saturate the season with lads who get little ice-time seems unappropriate. the end of season stats get longer with names attached that play limited games. I'd rather we have a squad that includes the guys who have graduated from the ranks who can cut it.
eg) Is James Neil worthy of a place? Or would he be better playing amoungst others in HIS league.
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Post by sparta on Jun 12, 2008 16:18:32 GMT
The only way clubs are goin to develop these kids for the eihl level is to play with players of a similar quality, and they are not goin to that @ the enl level. The epl and eihl have to merge or @ least form a development partniship, something like the nhl/ahl. Valid point, but interms of the NHL, it doesn't always work like that. Some players are better suited in the AHL (for a season's development) others are able to cope with the demands of the NHL regarding the skill and tempo etc, but they need to bulk up interms of muscle. I think that's applicable for the British game too.
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Post by carolle on Jun 12, 2008 16:23:57 GMT
I think James needs at least a season with an EPL team. He got very little ice time last season.
As for the likes of Robert and Sam, last season they played U`18`s/Lions and Panthers.. they got lots of ice time and training time. They got far more ice time than James over the season over the 3 leagues (I feel James would have benefited playing in the 3 leagues for the season aswell)
This season they won`t have the U 18`s games and training so they may also benefit from the EPL.
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Lyn
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Post by Lyn on Jun 12, 2008 18:23:01 GMT
This is the 'Elite League' and thats what I expect to see. Whilst I support any youngster wanting to play hockey, at what ever level it's all about entertainment for me. Seeing the young guys on a line with our imports still makes the game entertaining but watching complete brit lines is another story. I think Corey has made a good choice with recruiting Graham and I think there's a space for another but I agree with Carolle, Neil needs to spend some time in the EPL and to fill out a bit before he can make his mark on this league.
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Post by KimThePanther on Jun 12, 2008 20:27:30 GMT
I think our import numbers are too small not to be utilising more Brits. The imports are being expected to play massive amounts of ice time which I don't think is particularly great for what we are watching. We are seeing players play full on for the first two periods and then tiring for the third or not really putting in as much as they could during the first two periods and then going for it at the third.
That's affecting the quality and entertainment value of a game and I also think it's dangerous. I don't think it any surprise that last season was the worst for injuries that I can remember with Cardiff and Basingstoke in particular having nightmare seasons. We either need to think about increasing import levels again or using the Brits more and rolling four lines. I'm not sure some clubs could cope with the former so I think it needs to be the latter.
I can understand why some aren't going to be in favour of that but I think we'd see more from the imports and import quality players.
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Post by Number 9.1 on Jun 12, 2008 20:54:31 GMT
... it allows players to be rested etc when things are going good and it also give injury cover. And they would take any penalty minutes when necessary Agreed, but these are tactical decisions which take advantage of the fact that, because of the limits on imports, all teams need to make up the numbers with British players. I'm more than happy to see Brits used in all of the circumstances you mention but I do not agree that it's the role of the Panthers to develop British talent during what should be meaningful, competitive games. I might accept a development team being put out for a KO Cup fixture (if we were to enter it) or a Challenge Cup group game where qualification is no longer at stake but it would have to be promoted as such so that anyone buying a ticket knew what they were getting; the Mike Ellis approach smacked of short change. Very early days and I'm cautiously optimistic about the way things are shaping-up for the new season but I'd have to say that the promise of a minimum number of starts for Woolhouse looks like Neilson's first mistake.
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Post by Wirral Panther on Jun 12, 2008 21:48:49 GMT
I think woolhouse has earned his chance to get a minimum number of starts this season, he has shown an incredible amount of patience as a back up and been very loyal to this club, and proved very capable last season when askey had his wrist injury.
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Post by NickThePanther44 on Jun 12, 2008 22:17:18 GMT
An article by Rick Strang, makes some excellent points imo
The EIHL remains committed to an import quota of 10 players per team per roster with a further limit of five import changes during the season.
The apparent rationale for this is that this will allow roster spaces for the growth of home-grown talent and in 5, 10 or 15 years (or 20, 25 or 30 years?) time this intrepid band of brilliant Brits will be playing for Team GB and leading us to glory. In addition it’s suggested that local hockey played by local lads will be supported by the local community and provide a core stability to a game which currently sees large roster changes each season. Fans will indentify with heroes who stay and so keep coming back to watch games and British players living in Britain are more likely to stay than these fly-by-night imports.
It’s a theory.
I feel it’s deeply flawed and should be abandoned as soon as it is practical to do so.
Rather than improving the survivability of the sport in the UK it is in fact strangling it at the top level and cheating the fans of the best hockey that their £15 a game entitles them to watch.
Not that the Brits are sub-standard because clearly some of them aren’t. However, the fact that they’re on the team because they’re British, or more accurately, British trained, logically suggests that their skill set may not need to be as rounded as their imported colleagues. In addition they are a commodity that is limited and therefore the laws of supply and demand mean that Brits can hold out for better deals by trading on their Britishness rather than their offensive or defensive prowess.
The argument around Team GB and the need to fuel it with British talent has been rumbling for years. It’s too big a topic for this article but maybe we’ll have a good old chat about it at a later date. The evidence for import quotas though in terms of improving the chances of the national team are at best unproved and at worst completely discredited by fifteen years of not much at all from Team GB. More importantly the fan base, particularly the EIHL one, really doesn’t care. EIHL fans do not follow Team GB. It remains the preserve of those lower league die hards who do like watching their local lads. That’s a very admirable and heartening approach and I wouldn’t dream of knocking it but it’s also incredibly parochial. In a world made ever smaller by advances in air travel, the internet, mobile technology and computing the concept of attracting the best irrespective of race, creed or colour is a powerful one.
The football Premier League now attracts stars from across the world and has replaced the Italian and Spanish leagues as destinations of choice for world stars. Of course the input of money from TV has been a clear factor in this but no one would deny either that the pace and excitement of the “British” game has also attracted the best. This, coupled with a serious investment in decent facilities, has seen attendance to Premier League football rocket over the past fifteen years.
Whilst it is unlikely that UK hockey will attain anything like the dizzying heights of the Premier League there are still parallels to draw. Grotty, dark, litter strewn, miserable rinks are gradually becoming less prevalent in the EIHL. Only two teams remain in older rinks and rumours have surfaced over the past weeks suggesting Newcastle Vipers will soon have their own new facility after years in an arena not really fit for purpose. Whilst the facilities improve the actual game has to as well. Future British stars are not recruited in their late teens. They are formed at ages 5, 6 and 7 when kids go to a game for the first time with their parents. Few kids do anything outside of their parents’ influence in their early years so it is imperative that we attract parents to games and thus kids get to go and see hockey. Not just any old hockey but really good, skilful, fast, hard hitting hockey. They need to be inspired. They need to see the game at the highest level so that they aspire to dizzy heights. Then they can nag their parents for kit and sticks and get to join a local club.
First of all though you need that spark. For that you need the best players because then the parents want to watch the game and take the kids.
At the moment I do not believe we are getting the best value for money hockey and that’s because of the import limits. The Ice Hockey Superleague (ISL) will be held up as the last example of an all import league and it effectively bankrupted itself. However it was the best hockey this country had ever seen and there was significant interest in playing here. We also had stars and characters playing regularly – exactly what kids love and big kids (or “parents” as we like to be called in polite circles) can get excited about. My own kids used to hunt down hockey cards of ISL players from when they played in the NHL or AHL. To actually have players that had hockey cards made of them was a big deal. They were stars in the kids’ eyes. We need to get back to that. We have a wage cap in place and the lessons of affordability are writ large on most rink walls if anyone cares to look. For owners who don’t then they only have themselves to blame. In the meantime the import limit has no bearing on the wage bill and, if anything, actually makes the game less affordable as it limits the power of teams to collectively drive down salaries.
As for the continued pressure to produce top quality Brits? Why the pressure? Just let it go. If kids get inspired and want to play (and assuming we can get our junior hockey development in order) then they’ll come through anyway and if they can’t get roster slots here they’ll get them elsewhere. Perhaps that’ll push them harder. As for Team GB? Well, it really is just a little amateur diversion that acts as an end of season week away for those who care. No-one gets to see the team during the season and when they do play it’s miles away in some far flung corner of Europe (or worse still France). Whilst a fabulously successful Team GB would no doubt attract new fans to the sport, particularly if we won an Olympic gold medal for example, the reality is that this will not happen for many, many years and it certainly won’t happen until more kids come and watch the game and decide that they want to play it. Even more importantly the first exposure for anyone to the game is going to be at their local rink and with their local team.
Our kids have a broader outlook on the world today than they ever had. They are brighter, faster and more tolerant than ever before. I happen to take great pride in having kids who recognise talent for the sake of talent and believe in the principles of a meritocracy. Player A is good not because he is Canadian, not because he is black, not because he plays for my favourite team but because he’s a good player. The positivity of that cannot be underplayed. Sport is about learning lessons for life and seeing talent beyond the person is a key lesson lest we really want to choose people because of their skin colour or because of their nationality above their talent. That’s not a world I particularly value. I want my sport to reflect this new age. How many kids had #14 “Henry” on the back of their Arsenal shirts? Not because he was black and definitely not because he was French but because he was brilliant.
Let’s bring that back to UK hockey. Let’s have some stars. Let’s have guys playing because they’re brilliant, not because they’re British. Let’s have some heroes and villains and lets get parents inspired enough to bring their kids back to the sport because once the kids get the bug they’re more powerful than parents and pester power will fill our rinks much quicker than Olympic dreams of Team GB or local lads making good.
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Wirral Panther
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Post by Wirral Panther on Jun 12, 2008 22:48:53 GMT
Bramley, i reaily, reaily enjoyed reading that post, it was very interesting and straight from the heart and i respect that. you made me realise that the number of imports in our league can be a huge help in the long run. I hope that your vision for the future of our beloved sport that we are all very passionate about and love deeply does one day come true, I hope to see more posts like that in future. Hockey pundits in canada have said that they think hockey has real potential in this country.
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Post by NickThePanther44 on Jun 12, 2008 22:55:51 GMT
Rick Strang pretty much sums it up for me.
We pay for a product, if the British lads are good enough then it's nice to see them but otherwise I'd prefer to see the best hockey for my money. Scrap the import quota and keep the cap the same and I'm sure the standard of hockey would noticably increase, now who can say they wouldn't be happy with that.
Also let dual nats back into team GB, surely playing alongside better players and therefore playing better opposition will improve the home grown guys much better than just sticking a load of average players together along with the odd top Brit. Whats better ten Ash Taits or thirty avaerage players, the old quality or quantity debate?
I'm not anti British as some have suggested I just want to see the best hockey possible, end of. If we was to drop the import quota some would scream ISL 2 louder than a fog horn but remember it was bad management that destroyed the best league we've ever seen not blokes with funny accents (apologies to any Canadians). The way to get crowds in is to offer the best hockey possible and that comes from iports and the few Brits of that quality, we want a stronger league and sport overall in this country and surely by giving the best on ice product is the way to do that. Taking my Britishness aside and the sentiment that comes with it I cant see one way that having British lads in our game will help the sport move forward and grow in popularity in this country, so I don't see them as essential. Personally I'd like to see the import limit dropped and some sort of incentive given to teams for icing the British lads. This would ensure British players still had a look in but only if they were as good as there foriegn counterparts and therefore the Elite league would be what the Clarke's would strive for for playing reasons and not because there on a great wage for simply being British and a must sign due to the limit on imports.
Nick
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Post by NickThePanther44 on Jun 12, 2008 22:58:26 GMT
Bramley, i reaily, reaily enjoyed reading that post, it was very interesting and straight from the heart and i respect that. you made me realise that the number of imports in our league can be a huge help in the long run. I hope that your vision for the future of our beloved sport that we are all very passionate about and love deeply does one day come true, I hope to see more posts like that in future. Hockey pundits in canada have said that they think hockey has real potential in this country. Thanks chap although I didn't write it, I put before the first paragraph that it's actually written by Rick Strag, and very well written also. I agree that the article brings up some excellent points and I struggled to find one part I disagree with Got the feeling this could be the topic of the summer Nick
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Wirral Panther
Pat Casey
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Post by Wirral Panther on Jun 12, 2008 23:15:11 GMT
A mixture of imports and brits is whats goin to keep fans interested, but also key is keeping the imports(who the kids admired) here long term when their playing careers are over and help develop the brit kids.
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MP
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Post by MP on Jun 12, 2008 23:40:18 GMT
I think our import numbers are too small not to be utilising more Brits. The imports are being expected to play massive amounts of ice time which I don't think is particularly great for what we are watching. We are seeing players play full on for the first two periods and then tiring for the third or not really putting in as much as they could during the first two periods and then going for it at the third. That's affecting the quality and entertainment value of a game and I also think it's dangerous. I don't think it any surprise that last season was the worst for injuries that I can remember with Cardiff and Basingstoke in particular having nightmare seasons. We either need to think about increasing import levels again or using the Brits more and rolling four lines. I'm not sure some clubs could cope with the former so I think it needs to be the latter. I can understand why some aren't going to be in favour of that but I think we'd see more from the imports and import quality players. Good points there Kim. ISL hockey (well the early years) was great from the spectators viewpoint but proved unsustainable. Like it or not, good British players are necesary if the game is to have a long term future in this country. The idea that British youngsters can develop their game in the lower leagues then step into the EIHL as fully fledged players is pie in the sky. The British game just doesn't have the structure to do that. If the EIHL clubs don't work at bringing youngsters through to the top level then the supply of good British players will dry up and that doesn't bode well for the future of the game.
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Post by NickThePanther44 on Jun 13, 2008 9:42:09 GMT
I think our import numbers are too small not to be utilising more Brits. The imports are being expected to play massive amounts of ice time which I don't think is particularly great for what we are watching. We are seeing players play full on for the first two periods and then tiring for the third or not really putting in as much as they could during the first two periods and then going for it at the third. That's affecting the quality and entertainment value of a game and I also think it's dangerous. I don't think it any surprise that last season was the worst for injuries that I can remember with Cardiff and Basingstoke in particular having nightmare seasons. We either need to think about increasing import levels again or using the Brits more and rolling four lines. I'm not sure some clubs could cope with the former so I think it needs to be the latter. I can understand why some aren't going to be in favour of that but I think we'd see more from the imports and import quality players. Good points there Kim. ISL hockey (well the early years) was great from the spectators viewpoint but proved unsustainable. Like it or not, good British players are necesary if the game is to have a long term future in this country. This really isn't a pop MP just a genuine question. I don't understand why a lack of British players is always brought up as a reason for the ISL's demise. You say British players are neccessary to the long term future but I don't understand why this is. The ISL went belly up because too many teams spent more than they could afford and we were left with too few teams, well thats basically it anyway. Now whether those pennies that were so overly spent landed in a British pocket or a Canadian one is irrelevant surely. And as far as the long term need of the sport in this country, there will always be Europeans and N.Americans willing to come over here and play whether there are any British players or not so I don't see why it's neccessary to have them. I know we all like to see the British guys (I really enjoy watching Levers play for example and think it's great both Lyle and Murphy will be in the league next season) but they have all overpriced themselves these last few seasons and therefore caused a lot of the doubts over whether the current import quota should stand. If the import limit was scrapped there would still be a good number of British lads playing the only difference being they would earn what there abilities deserved and not what there nationality earns them. As long as the wage cap at least roughly controls what teams spend then this league will survive without a huge amount of Brits and probably grow in stature quicker without that large number. Nick
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Doughnut
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Post by Doughnut on Jun 13, 2008 10:36:49 GMT
I also disagree with the theory that high import numbers necessarily mean higher costs. The high costs of competing in the ISL were a result of a wage cap not being enforced, not the result of lots of foreigners. As has been said, the high end Brits cost more than cheap imports. Is this the reason the teams without the funding to afford the high end Brits have been allowed more imports this year?
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MP
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Post by MP on Jun 13, 2008 13:06:56 GMT
This really isn't a pop MP just a genuine question. I don't understand why a lack of British players is always brought up as a reason for the ISL's demise. You say British players are neccessary to the long term future but I don't understand why this is. The ISL went belly up because too many teams spent more than they could afford and we were left with too few teams, well thats basically it anyway. Now whether those pennies that were so overly spent landed in a British pocket or a Canadian one is irrelevant surely. And as far as the long term need of the sport in this country, there will always be Europeans and N.Americans willing to come over here and play whether there are any British players or not so I don't see why it's neccessary to have them. I know we all like to see the British guys (I really enjoy watching Levers play for example and think it's great both Lyle and Murphy will be in the league next season) but they have all overpriced themselves these last few seasons and therefore caused a lot of the doubts over whether the current import quota should stand. If the import limit was scrapped there would still be a good number of British lads playing the only difference being they would earn what there abilities deserved and not what there nationality earns them. As long as the wage cap at least roughly controls what teams spend then this league will survive without a huge amount of Brits and probably grow in stature quicker without that large number. Nick All valid points Nick - there is no easy answer to developing the game in this country. The ISL folded because too few teams could afford to pay players who could play at that level. By necessity those players were imports because there were few British players of that calibre and there was no incentive for ISL clubs to develop local players either. The EIHL was conceived as a development league. Clubs can't afford large quantities of top line imports and there are doubts that the fans want to watch full rosters of mediocre imports. So having a couple of lines of decent imports along with a line or two of British players seems a reasonable compromise both in terms of finance and entertainment. The stated aim I believe is to develop more local players to a higher level and so raise the standard of the game in the country. One drawback (possibly unforeseen) as you say Nick, is the requirement for British players has inflated the cost of the top British players. That problem should ease in due course as more quality local players come through the system and eventually we would get a mix of good imports and Brits all playing on merit and producing a good standard of hockey for us to watch. Well, that's the theory as I see it anyway. But I don't expect a panacea anytime soon - British hockey is usually in a parlous state and easily knocked off course.
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