Rich
Paul Adey
Go hard or go home
Posts: 6,691
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Post by Rich on May 16, 2008 8:50:16 GMT
Possibly Tex, I totally take on board what your saying. The main point is none of us know the ins and outs of the contracts. The comparison I made was very literal, playing devils advocate let me put it another way:
Clarke says im the best brit in the league and the only quality player left, I want £1250 a week. Then Tess/Carlson/Calder says Il play for you for £900. Clarke and Cornish OR Carlson, Richardson and some left over, enough to upgrade Pelletier into Teplitski for example?
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Jay
Ashley Tait
Posts: 1,933
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Post by Jay on May 16, 2008 8:59:40 GMT
I dunno why we dont just blow the cap out of the water, its obvious other teams do to a further extent, so should we, grow some balls!
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Post by texpef on May 16, 2008 9:08:21 GMT
As i said i can see where you are coming from and if that was the choice then i have to accept I personally would take the better import BUT as far as i can see that is NOT the choices made by our competitors ie cov and sheff, do you see they have skimped on imports/other brits to pay for their better quality brits?
As I see it they HAVE bought in (as none of these are homegrown talent on either club, in fact Tait was our developed player as you know, which makes them even more expensive than bringing on your own) and yet still have afforded players of the ilk you quote ie carlson/tess/calder.
Two questions then come to mind... 1. If we have a wagecap how are they affording them? 2. If they can do this why cant the panthers?
To my mind this isnt about getting a better quality of import IF we dont have a tait/weaver/Clark this is about getting at least one of those quality players at any cost and still getting the best imports to play in this country money can buy... which imho is what number 1 and 2 in the league did last year and so far look to be doing again this year...
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Warren
Greg Hadden
Posts: 1,467
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Post by Warren on May 16, 2008 10:16:39 GMT
One reason that Blaze / Steelers could afford "Import quality" Brits and High Quality imports is that the cap was broken. If they still sign High quality brits and keep there "Import Quality" Brits either they spent less than an extra 25% of last seasons cap (Bringing them under this year) or are going to break it again.
For me, "Import Quality" Brits are good at the right price. I don't want to have a team of Clarkie, Weaver and Tait and 9 Cornish's as our out skaters because the "Golden Trio" have blown our cap. Going all out to sign these high end Brits is not the way forward.
a normal team will roll with 3 x Lines FWD 2 x Lines D 2 x Netminders 1 x Spare D 2 x Spare FWD / Kids
Now I think having Danny is a smart move. He Free's up a D man slot. Add to that Corey implying having his 5th dman another Brit (Ferrera OR Graham) so assuming that
Imports slot here... 3 out of 5 D men 1 Out of 2 Netties That leaves 6 Imports between 9 slots. I think Myers may jump to 2nd line, leaving:- 1 full line of imports, 1 Line of 2 Imports + Matty 1 Line of 2 Brits + Import
IF the Imports taking the "top 5" Slots are good enough, then we don't need that Brit.
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Post by shirtless on May 16, 2008 10:34:31 GMT
why would clarke leave europe after one season anyway
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Post by dms41853 on May 16, 2008 10:49:48 GMT
why would clarke leave europe after one season anyway He could be missing his family, get a better financial offer here, he just plain as day not like it abroad. It could be anything that brings him back.
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Post by NickThePanther44 on May 16, 2008 10:53:11 GMT
I would be surprised if he came back simply because I heard he enjoyed his time abroad and I've been told from people who know him how much he wanted to succeed in Europe. I suppose anything from family reasons to us offering him an uber contract could se him return though.
I'd quite like him back but at the right price, certainly not as a top earner though
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Rich
Paul Adey
Go hard or go home
Posts: 6,691
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Post by Rich on May 16, 2008 10:54:49 GMT
why would clarke leave europe after one season anyway Why not? Hes not playing a top league (DEL,SEL,AHL etc), he can earn enough money over here to have a high quality of life. He can be around his friends Around his kid Playing for a team in his heart Playing first line Possibly captain English speaking country Nottingham social life (Apparently his Italian town is pretty remote) Persue other things away from hockey easily. The thing is Tex I agree with your theory but those guys arnt left, theyve been snapped up already so its a hyperthetical situation. I agree with you if all the brits were in a big pot but theyve all been tied up.
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Post by texpef on May 16, 2008 12:33:29 GMT
One reason that Blaze / Steelers could afford "Import quality" Brits and High Quality imports is that the cap was broken. If they still sign High quality brits and keep there "Import Quality" Brits either they spent less than an extra 25% of last seasons cap (Bringing them under this year) or are going to break it again. For me, "Import Quality" Brits are good at the right price. I don't want to have a team of Clarkie, Weaver and Tait and 9 Cornish's as our out skaters because the "Golden Trio" have blown our cap. Going all out to sign these high end Brits is not the way forward. a normal team will roll with 3 x Lines FWD 2 x Lines D 2 x Netminders 1 x Spare D 2 x Spare FWD / Kids Now I think having Danny is a smart move. He Free's up a D man slot. Add to that Corey implying having his 5th dman another Brit (Ferrera OR Graham) so assuming that Imports slot here... 3 out of 5 D men 1 Out of 2 Netties That leaves 6 Imports between 9 slots. I think Myers may jump to 2nd line, leaving:- 1 full line of imports, 1 Line of 2 Imports + Matty 1 Line of 2 Brits + Import IF the Imports taking the "top 5" Slots are good enough, then we don't need that Brit. Thing is though Warren we obviously do need that extra that is a top quality brit as the evidence from last season bears that out ie the supposed 2 best brits in the country were on a team that came first and second in the league and if rumours are to be believed both clubs spent VERY heavily to make sure they got the two brits too. Plus, having a brit you can trust to compete, allows you much more flexibility on your lines and gives you strength in depth too. This flexibility is invaluable when injuries happen during the season. Both Thomo (arguably the best coach in the country) and Matsos feel that way too otherwise they wouldnt have gone to such lengths to sign the players, who i will re-iterate neither are from their respective current clubs junior development. I agree Rich with the likes of owen moving to france and all the other import standard brits being signed or held to a 2 (or more) year deal that the only recognised quality brit left to sign is Clark and barring uncovering a real undiscovered gem this is our last chance this next season to sign someone of this ilk... Again imho i am reasonably happy with the brit contingent signed so far however even without weaver or tait it could be argued our "brit pack" still isnt as strong as both cov or sheff (and belfast in some peoples eyes too), again i have to ask how can it be done in these clubs yet seems to be lacking (so far..) in Nottingham? And this is before you take into consideration any import signings... We can argue the toss that we dont need a high end brit but i will make you a bet right now regardless of our imports (bar signing heatley and bringing boynton back!!!) i bet our imports are of no higher quality man for man than either sheffs or covs and IF we dont sign a quality import standard brit, (and barring uncovering a real undiscovered diamond) we WILL end up yet again behind the likes of cov and sheff and that is something i personally loathe the idea of.... Put it this way hypothetically, if money was no object would you rather have a quality brit (and as stated having left it too late to pinch any other we are basically talking about Clark here) than go without one assuming all other factors are equal? Because that is the situation i see at our two biggest rivals so far for the league next season, they have bought in the best british talent there is out there regardless of the cost and no doubt now that is tied up they will start on the imports (which seems to be what is happening at cov already with a 1st line NHL draft pick centre!!!)...
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Post by shirtless on May 18, 2008 22:49:15 GMT
Well i really should learn when not to open my mouth LMAO! but seriously even if we do get clarke back without the proper support he may end up carrying a lot of pressure to perform as our "top brit" as labelled on this thread and that is not always the most positive thing in answer to my own question i would have said cos he loves nottm panthers and wants to win more stuff but the truth is he was on schedule for around 26-32 points playing for alleghe in italy which would have put him in the top three scorers on his team (excluding playoffs) but as he was injured we will never know weather he would have reached that target but it shows he could cut it in italy so i don't see why another european team from the mainland would not want to sign him on thier roster
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Ian
Matt Myers
Posts: 1,702
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Post by Ian on May 19, 2008 6:05:03 GMT
If David Clarke returns to the UK (Panthers or otherwise) it is more likely to be a personal decision than a hockey-based one. Regardless of what your professional ambitions may be, living and working overseas is a big decision and is not for everyone. I love travelling and spending time in different cultures as much as anyone, but I found that a couple of years living and working overseas was enough and I decided to settle back here in England. And I was theoretically in a better position to move long-term than Clarkey is because I was in a place where I spoke the language fluently and didn't have the same family responsibilities here. It is right for some people and not for others, simple as that. And the upheaval of making that decision should not be underestimated. If he wants to come back to England for reasons far more important than his hockey career, that is perfectly understandable to me and I just hope that the Panthers can benefit by signing him up.
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Warren
Greg Hadden
Posts: 1,467
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Post by Warren on May 19, 2008 7:22:10 GMT
Thing is though Warren we obviously do need that extra that is a top quality Brit as the evidence from last season bears that out IE the supposed 2 best Brits in the country were on a team that came first and second in the league and if rumors are to be believed both clubs spent VERY heavily to make sure they got the two Brits too. Plus, having a Brit you can trust to compete, allows you much more flexibility on your lines and gives you strength in depth too. This flexibility is invaluable when injuries happen during the season. Both Thomo (arguably the best coach in the country) and Matsos feel that way too otherwise they wouldn't have gone to such lengths to sign the players, who i will re-iterate neither are from their respective current clubs junior development. I agree Rich with the likes of Owen moving to France and all the other import standard Brits being signed or held to a 2 (or more) year deal that the only recognized quality Brit left to sign is Clark and barring uncovering a real undiscovered gem this is our last chance this next season to sign someone of this ilk... Again IMHO i am reasonably happy with the Brit contingent signed so far however even without weaver or Tait it could be argued our "Brit pack" still isn't as strong as both cov or sheff (and belfast in some peoples eyes too), again i have to ask how can it be done in these clubs yet seems to be lacking (so far..) in Nottingham? And this is before you take into consideration any import signings... We can argue the toss that we dont need a high end brit but i will make you a bet right now regardless of our imports (bar signing heatley and bringing boynton back!!!) i bet our imports are of no higher quality man for man than either sheffs or covs and IF we dont sign a quality import standard brit, (and barring uncovering a real undiscovered diamond) we WILL end up yet again behind the likes of cov and sheff and that is something i personally loathe the idea of.... Put it this way hypothetically, if money was no object would you rather have a quality brit (and as stated having left it too late to pinch any other we are basically talking about Clark here) than go without one assuming all other factors are equal? Because that is the situation i see at our two biggest rivals so far for the league next season, they have bought in the best british talent there is out there regardless of the cost and no doubt now that is tied up they will start on the imports (which seems to be what is happening at cov already with a 1st line NHL draft pick centre!!!)... SO the "Import Quality Brits" are.... Ash Tait, Weaver, Clarke, Owen, Shields, Lobby & Possibly J. Phillips Well From that list, If I am not mistaken:- Tait - will never return because of how he was treated previously Weaver - Big mates with Thommo Cant see him being anywhere else except back at Vipers Clarke - Went off on a Euro adventure Owen - Is off on his next season Shields - Has tried N. America and is back now at Belfast. old connections there. Lobby - Will retire in his Vipers shirt (Or a Whitley bay one) Phillips - If any Brit believes the Panthers Vs Steelers hype its him, so I can never see him coming here. You use Sheff & Cov as your examples. Well Coventry had every man and his dog on a uni course the last couple of years, Now the big names of gone we will see how they do. As for Big names, I remember a certain Panthers player who came to us having played last for an NHL side. he wasn't setting the league alight before his injury was he? The overall factor, for me at least, is that the 2 teams are "TEAMS" not a bunch of individuals. Coventry have arguably the best coach in the country. Sheffield have a talisman in Tessier. The last 2 seasons, he has done more for that club than any other player. Last season we signed some great players, but we were far from a team. I also believe that Coventry have a hidden draw for players... "Come here and win some silverware for your CV."
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Post by texpef on May 19, 2008 8:29:02 GMT
As you state Warren having an "import quality" brit does not guarantee you success and there ARE alot of other factors involved too but any advantage that can be gained must be utilised. At panthers this doesnt seem to be the case, whether it is a uni place to get that import that was out of reach or to sign the best that britain has to offer, we here seem to be more interested in saving the cash... or so it is perceived at least by me anyway.
As for the hidden drawer i dont think this can be underestimated however it is something steelers always played on till a few years ago and something along with the fine facilities that nottm should emphasise given our successess over the last few years...
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Warren
Greg Hadden
Posts: 1,467
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Post by Warren on May 19, 2008 9:15:01 GMT
As you state Warren having an "import quality" brit does not guarantee you success and there ARE alot of other factors involved too but any advantage that can be gained must be utilised. At panthers this doesnt seem to be the case, whether it is a uni palce to get that import that was out of reach or to sign the best that britain has to offer, we here seem to be more interested in saving the cash... or so it is perceived at least by me anyway. As for the hidden draw i dont think this can be underestimated however it is something steelers always played on till a few years ago and something along with the fine facilities that nottm should emphasise given our successess over the last few years... Last season, I think we started out the complete opposite... PC - "A Superstar" in the ISL Wally - "Another "superstar" in the ISL Molin - one of the previous seasons top players Macca - Our top points scorer Corey - Arguably one of top 5 Dmen in the league the season before Trouble is, these guys were all "great" but again a bunch of individuals not a team. Some sides are built around 1 or 2 players. (See Sheffield this season if Tessier returns) Thommo has 2 or 3 systems. If he looses a guy, he looks for his replacement. He needs to fill boxes X, Y and Z not "He scored loads of points lets sign him" Also Thommo reputedly has minimal ego's in the dressing room. Collectively they may be arrogant etc but no player is greater than the team. If anything Corey needs to emulate this. A bunch of guys who take the win first not there personal points tally. Guys who looks to put a guy through the plexi because he "looked" at the Nettie. A bunch of guys who will bust a gut even if its "not there night" Back on topic, I want the Clarke saga over. I would like to see him back. NOT because of who or what he is, but because Corey's tactics need someone with Clarke's skills.
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matt44
David Clarke
Posts: 3,085
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Post by matt44 on May 19, 2008 9:47:01 GMT
but because Corey's tactics need someone with Clarke's skills. What are Coreys tactics? Thommo builds a side on the foundation of damned hard work, grit and determination. Not around star players or the best looking team on paper, which seems to go to us each season and look where it gets us! lol
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Rich
Paul Adey
Go hard or go home
Posts: 6,691
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Post by Rich on May 19, 2008 9:47:31 GMT
One key thing about all this.... I hope Clarkey makes his mind up soon. If he doesnt come we need 10 top quality imports. If he does then we havnt got as much to spend and can sign a third liner or enforcer because there wont be as much to spend.
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Post by texpef on May 19, 2008 9:52:19 GMT
I say it again though Rich, you say we wont have as much to spend if we sign Clark, but where has sheff or cov lacked even though they both have expensive brits? I would like the panthers to emulate these teams (and belfast for that matter) and sign the best brits that will play for the panthers and then go out there and do what it takes to bring the best of the imports as well (assuming that they will fit into whatever game plan the coach decides...)
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Rich
Paul Adey
Go hard or go home
Posts: 6,691
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Post by Rich on May 19, 2008 10:01:08 GMT
Nice theory, but in reality Clarkey will make a difference to our remaining budget.
I agree and the fact Sheffield have got 2of the best 3 brits in the league whilst also having quality everywhere else is a complete p155take but look at it another way, if we dont get him and Richo doesnt come back that leaves a lot of money in the pot for the 10 imports!
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Warren
Greg Hadden
Posts: 1,467
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Post by Warren on May 19, 2008 10:58:48 GMT
but because Corey's tactics need someone with Clarke's skills. What are Coreys tactics? Thommo builds a side on the foundation of damned hard work, grit and determination. Not around star players or the best looking team on paper, which seems to go to us each season and look where it gets us! lol I wasn't implying I knew what Corey's tactics were Matt. What I am saying is that if Corey's tactics need him, sign him. Don't just offer him 1/2 the cap because we need a top end Brit. If the League sticks to its word, checks on the cap for each club, it will be interesting to see what the results will be.
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Post by texpef on May 19, 2008 11:21:24 GMT
Spot on it should mean alot of cash but look at last year Rich, yes we had alot of "high end" imports but then lost prob the most expensive early and didnt really replace him till the deadline.... hardly helping the team there, and yes sheff are taking the michael as they did last season signing tess, but who cares, panthers are a more profitable and better supported club, whatever they can do we should be able to do in spades shouldnt we?..
Warren, i agree it will be interesting to see what the league come up with regarding the cap but as already stated as the league is run by the owners for the owners i doubt very much we will a. see the outcome and b. any teams not sticking to it to get penalised.... do you?...
It sounds like we disagree here and i dont think we do, all i am saying is if other teams can afford a high end brit (or more) and still bring in the best imports playing in britain then the panthers should be able to as well and if that means signing Clark then so be it....
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matt44
David Clarke
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Post by matt44 on May 19, 2008 12:01:33 GMT
What are Coreys tactics? Thommo builds a side on the foundation of damned hard work, grit and determination. Not around star players or the best looking team on paper, which seems to go to us each season and look where it gets us! lol I wasn't implying I knew what Corey's tactics were Matt. What I am saying is that if Corey's tactics need him, sign him. Don't just offer him 1/2 the cap because we need a top end Brit. If the League sticks to its word, checks on the cap for each club, it will be interesting to see what the results will be. I wasn't being sarcastic - I just thought i'd missed an interview or something. lol I agree - he should only be signed for the right price.
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Warren
Greg Hadden
Posts: 1,467
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Post by Warren on May 19, 2008 12:38:08 GMT
Spot on it should mean alot of cash but look at last year Rich, yes we had alot of "high end" imports but then lost prob the most expensive early and didnt really replace him till the deadline.... hardly helping the team there, and yes sheff are taking the michael as they did last season signing tess, but who cares, panthers are a more profitable and better supported club, whatever they can do we should be able to do in spades shouldnt we?.. Warren, i agree it will be interesting to see what the league come up with regarding the cap but as already stated as the league is run by the owners for the owners i doubt very much we will a. see the outcome and b. any teams not sticking to it to get penalised.... do you?... It sounds like we disagree here and i dont think we do, all i am saying is if other teams can afford a high end brit (or more) and still bring in the best imports playing in britain then the panthers should be able to as well and if that means signing Clark then so be it.... I see what you mean Tex, Yes I do "wonder" why we can't have everything like others do. The Sheff and Tess thing, IMO he was on next to no money at Sheff (Cornish's wages) But was promised either: a. a Huge brown envelope at the end of the season if he brought them the play offs. b. A Huge contract this season, forcing steelers to build around him next season (and the other 2nd year guys) c. Both At the moment we have signed 1 new guy and a handful of "cheap" Brits (oh and Danny) I will wait and see what the teams look like before I decide who has / hasn't broke the cap.
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Shorty
Paul Adey
Still here for Private Messages
Posts: 6,636
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Post by Shorty on May 19, 2008 12:40:49 GMT
I dont think it had to be a brown envelope at the end of the season. The wage cap only used to run throughout the season. Not sure if that is still the case or not though.
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Warren
Greg Hadden
Posts: 1,467
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Post by Warren on May 19, 2008 15:20:02 GMT
Hey why don't we check the rule book?
Damn where did I put it... I am sure I had a copy round here.... It has a photo of Elvis riding a unicorn holding a hockey stick on the front....
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rab5
Jade Galbraith
Posts: 48
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Post by rab5 on May 19, 2008 16:28:10 GMT
Hold on a minute - after every game against the steelers the posts basically said - "lost to an average team" or "they didn't impress me" and so on.... Now suddenly they are all superstars and the club are surely busting the wage cap? Make your mind up people! So far they've signed the same players from last year and there's a 25% increase in cap - and no Tessier, hardly a crime!
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