LUFC
Ashley Tait
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Post by LUFC on Mar 7, 2008 3:33:40 GMT
It's fair because the rules do not state when a club can or cannot go into administration. We had to pay 5million in taxes straight away, so we had no choice to but seek administration. We did it at a time we saw best within the Rules.
You cannt state that the 15points are just because we obeyed the existing rules with the 10 point deduction. The 15 points was deducted on a made up ruling to cover the fact we could not get a CVA. and i have to stress this again obviously that the CVA was blocked by high court action by the IR, why, because the football league rule that breaks the law. The league itself does not make the tax payments so cannot get taken to court, so each and every time the IR go after the club. How can this be fair in the whole grand scheme of things, that each club unless like leeds broker a deal with the IR, get walloped with court action and then cannot get a cva. It isnt fair and you know it.
If the League just ammended it's rules then clubs in the future could make CVA's that mean everyone gets paid after the tax man has been paid, in conjuction with the law. Then the league wouldnt have to be so stupid as to make up point deductions on the spot for it;s own inept action.
Tell you what, lets look at it from a hockey point of view. Every team that doesnt pay it's players on time due to financial difficulties we dock 10 points. Making them miss the play offs and making their survival be put at stake. Fair? I think not.
Yes clubs over spend and sometimes cant get sponsorships or the right funding. That is very much the case for all these other teams, it wasnt that they over spent on players. So why punish the fans, the staff and players for the actions of pathetic owners? Tell me is it fair on the fans? On the staff? On the area around that club?
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Milkman™
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Post by Milkman™ on Mar 7, 2008 6:30:52 GMT
Tell me is it fair on the fans? On the staff? On the area around that club? Is it fair on the printer who prints the programme, the dairy delivering the milk, the caterers et all who would end up with 10p in the pound under the CVA's. I'm a Leeds boy born, bred and buttered however the tinted goggles need to be taken off here, the club did not go belly up overnight. The rules and laws do need to be changed yes your right, but to get the greedy fat cats like Bates out of football. The sooner the better. If I tried the trick Leeds did and didn't pay the TAX/VAT man I would go to jail, simple as.
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oldman
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Post by oldman on Mar 7, 2008 20:56:08 GMT
slightly on a different tack was it rushton and diamonds who went into admin at half time away against wrexham a couple of years ago as they were losing a must win game so bit the bullet at the last possible moment!
This whole rule needs ditching, how about go into admin you get automatic relegation of two leagues, that might deter another bates rip off! If leeds did it now would be in the blue square next season for example!
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LUFC
Ashley Tait
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Post by LUFC on Mar 8, 2008 3:24:57 GMT
Excuse me, how has this got to do with bates? Yes he was the one that put us into admin, to save the club, however it was not his spending that got us there.
And where was the rip off? if the club had completely folded those people would get nothing. Yes zip capput nadda. NOTHING. atleast we agreed to give them money back. and should we get promoted that fee paid back goes up. 10 year clauses put in place. and as much as 55p will be paid back to every pound owed. Meaning they atleast get half of what is owed back as opposed to nothing. Ide dam well take something over nothing, even if it is a kick in the teeth.
As for not paying taxes Milkman, dont pay them, declare bankrupt and you dont ever have to pay what you owed. Many people and business do that. And the only real reason why leeds couldnt pay was because we had no money in the coffers. Oh sure some say bates could of paid with his money. Pure and simple Leeds United is a business, all clubs are that. Why pump money into a business thats failing when legeslation gives you a way out through administration. Logically it was the right option. Go into admin, restructure things, have a cva and pay taxes back in installments. Anyone would do that if they could.
Just cause leeds did it within their rights, took the points deduction within the rule book guide lines, doesnt mean they should be punished. Simple fact is they did everything by the book. And like i said before, only the Leagues rule forced the IR action, to which we had to sort out through talks, thus preventing us getting a cva in time. We now have one in place so the reason why we got 15points off is inept.
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Milkman™
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Post by Milkman™ on Mar 8, 2008 13:47:55 GMT
As for not paying taxes Milkman, dont pay them, declare bankrupt and you dont ever have to pay what you owed. Many people and business do that. And the only real reason why leeds couldnt pay was because we had no money in the coffers. Ok so I go bankrupt, all my assets and bank accounts are frozen. My assets are then sold off to pay my creditors. Leeds had assets that were saleable (the players) and could have helped clear the debts. Is it really 7 years since I stood in the Mestalla Stadium and watched Mendietta rip Leeds apart. Subsequent Leeds owners and top management ruined the club, not the FA, the League, UEFA. Would you be taking this track had Leeds been top?, the 15 points back only juts give us a automatic place. Leeds own worst enemy is Leeds at the moment, stop crying in the papers and show some passion on the field, its division 3 for fudges sake.
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oldman
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Post by oldman on Mar 8, 2008 14:55:55 GMT
seriously though you missed the other punishment make it two league relegation automatically at the end of season and anyone will think twice i feel
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LUFC
Ashley Tait
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Post by LUFC on Mar 8, 2008 16:40:00 GMT
seriously though you missed the other punishment make it two league relegation automatically at the end of season and anyone will think twice i feel That is just not a workable solution. Tiss like saying anyone who has debt cannot reorganise themselves and make a structured timetable of repayment (as thats what admin and cva's mean) without being made to go completely bust. In which case most clubs doing so would cease to exist. Business in this country is protected by laws to make sure employee are not hurt, to make sure local comunities are not ripped apart and more. Football clubs are no different. they are business' at the end of the day and need to know that even if things go belly up, even if previous owners have made mistakes, the club has a viable option in which to seek help. This help is Administration, where an indipendant company comes in, sorts out the finances, sorts out cva's etc and helps the club get back to being what it is primarily. A club. Milkman you say sell players. er what players could we of sold to make the immediate 5million payment? We had no players worth that much left. Due to the massive garage sale we had we was screwed over by those who owned us. As for the it's Division 3 and we should be out of there. yes i agree we should be "running" away with the league in theory. In practice we are actually the number two team. Stats dont lie. We have the stats to actually put us second, and closer to swansea after todays win and their loss. So in reality we have the team. Just have a handicap this season. Should we fail to gain the points back or promotion. Next season will be different. There will be no Swansea int he way for starters.
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oldman
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Post by oldman on Mar 8, 2008 16:55:10 GMT
will stop people taking the easy option though when ten points makes no difference to their position though
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Dan
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Post by Dan on May 1, 2008 16:07:10 GMT
Now will it end? The league says it was right, the chairmen say it was right, and now an official legal hearing say it was right - The 15 point deduction stands. Forest stay third, Leeds stay sixth, what a last day it's set up to be.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2008 16:08:38 GMT
Now will it end? The league says it was right, the chairmen say it was right, and now an official legal hearing say it was right - The 15 point deduction stands. Forest stay third, Leeds stay sixth, what a last day it's set up to be. excellent, justice prevails, now lets thump yeovil and hope cheltenham do us a favour
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sunbeam
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Post by sunbeam on May 1, 2008 16:41:39 GMT
Fair play to Leeds for saying they now accept the judgement.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2008 16:46:26 GMT
Fair play to Leeds for saying they now accept the judgement. fair play to a team who tried to appeal when they very well knew they had done wrong ?
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Post by sparta on May 1, 2008 16:54:20 GMT
Fair play to Leeds for saying they now accept the judgement. Sorry but I don't have that opinion of them at all. They should have appealed right from the off, a little difficult mind when one of their own directors signed a document agreeing to the points deduction.
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Post by dms41853 on May 1, 2008 16:59:54 GMT
I would like to say well done to the arbitration panel for having the balls to uphold the decision!
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Post by Peacock on May 1, 2008 17:41:09 GMT
I would like to say well done to the arbitration panel for having the balls to uphold the decision! Why? Upholding it was the easy option. Would have taken real balls to overturn it.
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Post by dms41853 on May 1, 2008 17:44:30 GMT
I said that because i could've seen then reversing the original decision.
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Post by pantherdman on May 1, 2008 20:35:05 GMT
I'm a little warey of this verdict, Leeds couldn't appeal straight away, if they did they wouldn't have been allowed in the league. Now this precident has been set what other new rules will the FA force in with the threat of bannishment if you don't comply?
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Post by sparta on May 1, 2008 20:49:10 GMT
I'm a little warey of this verdict, Leeds couldn't appeal straight away, if they did they wouldn't have been allowed in the league. Now this precident has been set what other new rules will the FA force in with the threat of bannishment if you don't comply? Shouldn't have got themselves into such a financial mess then should they? They aren't the victims in all of this mess, they got themselves into a mess through over spending just like Forest, Coventry, Sheffield Wednesday, Bradford...
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Post by NickThePanther44 on May 1, 2008 21:27:07 GMT
unlucky
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LUFC
Ashley Tait
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Post by LUFC on May 1, 2008 21:43:56 GMT
Meh, i just hope Forest win on saturday (hold nothing against them as they voted for no points off), doncaster and carlisle lose as those scum bags said they would takle court action like crying babies (both also known to of voted yes to 15 points). Then Leeds get up through the play offs. As for the hearing, ive read the statement from the panel, what i dont understand is how could we of appealed earlier when we started our appeal on 30th of August. Also it doesnt mention the legality of the points which is what the hearing was all about, just goes on about how it would be unfair. Obviously there is more behind the scene. But whats done is now done, the league must therefore deduct 15 from both bounmouth and luton now as neither of them have agreed CVA's to get their league share for next season. But i doubt they will do this as their names are not Leeds United. (yes i am a bitter bitter man lol). But anyway. Play off dream is still alive, so here's hoping we go up still with two fingers in the air! Ps. how the hell can you break competition rules on insolvency? As thats what we was docked for. Not for the way we went into administration, not for how we came out of it. But for being stupid to not realise it was a competition
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oldman
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Post by oldman on May 1, 2008 22:46:41 GMT
the point is surely that ken bates played fast and loose with the regulations and then had the nerve to cry foul when the league slapped his wrists, this is why i would relegate any team trying to use this loophole!
this is why i would agree with doncaster and carlisle especially as both those teams have got to were they are through hard work and not through overspending year on year and then trying to bend the rules to suit. As far as leeds go i hope you go out at the first hurdle, for the sake of decent teams that play according to the rules!
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LUFC
Ashley Tait
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Post by LUFC on May 1, 2008 23:18:10 GMT
the point is surely that ken bates played fast and loose with the regulations and then had the nerve to cry foul when the league slapped his wrists, this is why i would relegate any team trying to use this loophole! this is why i would agree with doncaster and carlisle especially as both those teams have got to were they are through hard work and not through overspending year on year and then trying to bend the rules to suit. As far as leeds go i hope you go out at the first hurdle, for the sake of decent teams that play according to the rules! Excuse me but everyone cries forget the past forgive and move on all the time in all sports. It was the Previous regime that cost the club. The rules on overspending was not bent cause there are non. The rules on administration did not get bent either, It was some rule that the FL made up on the spot, (is in the statement that the panel says they should actually write these rules down. Very much an elite league page here in the make up rules as you want book) and they called it Competition rules on insolvency. Which to me a a farce in itself. Like i said if they dont do the same to Luton or Bournmouth then the league are setting double standards. Would hate for anything to happen should Hicks decide to pull the plug on all your big spending at liverpool. Shock horror that the same fate should ever happen to them. As for Doncaster or Carlisle, they did just enough to scrape where they are, cause look at the end of the day if stats are to be seen and no points off they did not do enough to secure promotion ON the pitch. It's alright screaming foul but at the end of the day we are better than all but swansea for on pitch results. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it. Cant argue there.
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Milkman™
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Post by Milkman™ on May 2, 2008 0:26:16 GMT
It was the Previous regime that cost the club. Ken Bates?
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Post by NottinghamMatt on May 2, 2008 6:20:50 GMT
Excuse me but everyone cries forget the past forgive and move on all the time in all sports. It was the Previous regime that cost the club. The rules on overspending was not bent cause there are non. The rules on administration did not get bent either, It was some rule that the FL made up on the spot, (is in the statement that the panel says they should actually write these rules down. Very much an elite league page here in the make up rules as you want book) and they called it Competition rules on insolvency. Which to me a a farce in itself. Like i said if they dont do the same to Luton or Bournmouth then the league are setting double standards. I'd suggest you read the whole judgement, it would appear Ken Bates has put more spin on this than the Panthers manage on occasion and the tribunals reasons for rejecting the claim are very clear and contradict what Bates has been saying!
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Milkman™
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Post by Milkman™ on May 2, 2008 11:41:33 GMT
Ken Bates accusing the Chairmen of other clubs of been 'governed by self interest' is laughable.
He accepted the 15 points and then wanted them back after a poor run of results.
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