Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Dec 3, 2004 12:50:17 GMT
Reading a couple of recent threads (the 'future of hockey' and 'Hull in EIHL' threads especially) I'm amazed by the short-sightedness and (in some cases) blatant selfishness of some people.
etc etc etc.......
How about people getting their head out of the pink and fuzzy clouds for a minute and actually looking at the state of our league and sport right now? Sure - the EIHL appears to be better run, more sensible and with greater long-term viability than the ISL.... that's good news. But does that mean that all is rosy? - does it hell!
We currently have a seven-team league..... which is about as small as we really want to go, correct? Many people (myself included) think that 8 teams is really the minimum viable.... which we'll have IF (as we all hope) Manchester come back to us. So - the EIHL's OK and we should say 'naff off' to other teams who might not reach our own exacting standards? - is that it?
But what would you all say if (or, given the recent trends, WHEN) the next club or two goes bust? Belfast are known to be somewhat shaky financially..... Them Just Up The M1 are having major problems..... London, it is suspected, are being 'propped up' somewhat by the league funds..... Basingstoke look healthier than last season, but that could still change. And we still have no confirmation that we will be seeing Manchester back.
What if one or more of them goes under? What about Cardiff's lease on the WNIR running out next year? - if they don't get some temporary or permanent solution (promised by the council - anyone here trust councils?) they could be gone. Where would we get teams to replace them? - the BNL teams, right? Well - not if we let them all die off......
Add to that, the general state of the sport as a whole. It's hard enough for teams (and leagues!) to get good sponsorship - this will become all that much harder if the sport starts shrinking by several senior teams..... and as for the effect on what little positive media coverage we get - ouch! Kiss goodbye to any future hopes of growing the sport and attracting TV coverage again.
And there's more to this sport than just even our league and the BNL. Lose senior teams in various places.... and the sport will become less attractive to kids -you can bet there'd be fewer signing up for the junior systems. It might not be a big drop..... but we need as much chance for British junior development as we can get, right?
WE ARE ALL CONNECTED. There is no 'us' and 'them' - no totally seperate empires...... what hurts them, hurts us. There's safety and strength in numbers - to allow other clubs to die off would be to knowingly hurt the environment that we live in. Sure - there could be a financial risk in bringing some clubs into the EIHL..... but life is risk. The potential damage from NOT allowing them in, based purely on some kind of arbitrary numbers limit or a desire for revenge for old 'offences', is surely far, far higher than inviting them into a league which will likely provide them with increased numbers of away fans (and therefore higher revenue) and already has a built-in financial safety net.
It strikes me that some people on here need to look at the bigger picture.
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Matt
Simon Hunt
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Post by Matt on Dec 3, 2004 13:31:49 GMT
Although I don`t enjoy the BNL games as much as the EIHL ones,Shaggy is right that this sport needs to unite if it is to have a serious long term future,but I`d hope that the BNL teams would bring up their standard and not the other way round!!
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Post by girdeaux on Dec 3, 2004 13:43:07 GMT
Spot on Shaggy, I don't agree with the laisse-faire attitude of " spherical objects to the rest" either
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sunbeam
David Clarke
The Panthers don't do league titles. Not even Carlsberg can manage that!
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Post by sunbeam on Dec 3, 2004 13:53:11 GMT
You've pretty much summed it up perfectly, Shaggy.
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Post by grayhead on Dec 3, 2004 14:03:03 GMT
Well said Shaggy.
Have you considered putting yourself forwards as the 'Saviour of Hockey in the UK'?
The powers that be don't seem to be able to see the bigger picture. Maybe some outside blood is needed from a working commitee (possibly led by yourself) wouldn't go amiss.
For our beloved sport to continue, we need to move forwards and ALL work together.
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Milkman™
Les Strongman
Always Delivers
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Post by Milkman™ on Dec 3, 2004 15:12:55 GMT
The big problem is as always money, cos after all this is a business not a charity.
The haves want to keep it and will keep the lower classses down come what may.
We can harp on about this day in day out until we are blue in the face, and you are right what we need is a TV contract, look what it did for darts and snooker in this country.
However the BBC, C4 and C5 have already tried as have Sky and what happened nothing.
I'll ask the question would you PPV for a hockey game?
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Post by girdeaux on Dec 3, 2004 15:15:51 GMT
I'll ask the question would you PPV for a hockey game? Believe you've asked this one before, and thus I'll give you the same answer... For a Panthers' game yes, but not for Blaze Vs Sheffield etc etc
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Post by Heanor Lair on Dec 3, 2004 15:24:05 GMT
Yep Id PPV for hockey- no probs.
I quite like watching games that dont necessarily involve my own team, you can have a different perspective of the game.
HL
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Milkman™
Les Strongman
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Post by Milkman™ on Dec 3, 2004 15:24:14 GMT
Believe you've asked this one before, and thus I'll give you the same answer... For a Panthers' game yes, but not for Blaze Vs Sheffield etc etc Thats the prob we have, who apart from the (been v optomistic here) 20,000 who watch every weekend are going to tune into a 3 hour programme on saturday night primetime.
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Post by Heanor Lair on Dec 3, 2004 15:29:03 GMT
Shaggy, I'm afraid I,m in the 'them and us' camp.
For sure it would be graet to have one big happy family, but with the present personnel at all levels of the sport there is too much mistrust.
At the moment the EIHL seems to be doing a good job, the teams are pretty well matched, etc.
Maybe its head in the sand stuff, but better the Devil you know than the devil you dont.
When certain personnel from both the EIHL and the BNL have moved on it maybe time to start afresh, draw a line in the sand, but its not happening at the moment.
HL
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Post by girdeaux on Dec 3, 2004 15:32:32 GMT
I quite like watching games that dont necessarily involve my own team, you can have a different perspective of the game. HL I have no problem with watching other teams play HL, a situation that frequently occured having set my vcr last season to watch various NHL teams play. But Therapy is talking about Pay Per View, and I personally wouldn't pay to watch Sheffield away at...Basingstoke or at home to Cardiff
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Post by gazzathedevil on Dec 3, 2004 15:34:47 GMT
One thing that still baffles me is when people make comments like
'I havent enjoyed games against BNL teams, but i still wouldnt mind them coming in'
When/if they step up they WONT be BNL teams thus whatever they have done in the BNL should be forgotten they will be on the same playing field in imports and look what a step up to the Elite League has done for crowds in Cardiff again! whos to say that wont happen to the rest of the teams if they step up?
I'm with Shaggy on this one
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Post by Heanor Lair on Dec 3, 2004 15:42:18 GMT
I have no problem with watching other teams play HL, a situation that frequently occured having set my vcr last season to watch various NHL teams play. But Therapy is talking about Pay Per View, and I personally wouldn't pay to watch Sheffield away at...Basingstoke or at home to Cardiff I would!! HL
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Milkman™
Les Strongman
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Post by Milkman™ on Dec 3, 2004 15:48:20 GMT
look what a step up to the Elite League has done for crowds in Cardiff again! whos to say that wont happen to the rest of the teams if they step up? I'm with Shaggy on this one The key word is AGAIN, cardiff have been superleague before, some of the 'other' teams have not, and if Nottingham got kicked out of the NIC and started playing BNL then im sure panthers crowds would drop in a new york minute, you only have to look at mid week cross league fixtures.
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Post by girdeaux on Dec 3, 2004 15:48:29 GMT
An interesting answer, given your statement of how you want the Panthers to go into European competition...
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Shaggy
Forum Moderator
Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Dec 3, 2004 16:10:06 GMT
Have you considered putting yourself forwards as the 'Saviour of Hockey in the UK'? The powers that be don't seem to be able to see the bigger picture. Maybe some outside blood is needed from a working commitee (possibly led by yourself) wouldn't go amiss. ROTFLMAO!! I truly thank-you for the compliment, but I'm the last person that this sport needs to lead it..... I have this uncanny knack of annoying people simply by existing! But you're right..... the sport does need some fresh direction IMHO - personally I'd like to see some hard-headed business type heading it up and making the tough decisions with an 'advisory council' made up of real hockey people..... although how we could attract sucha person, I really don't know.
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Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Dec 3, 2004 16:12:29 GMT
The key word is AGAIN, cardiff have been superleague before, some of the 'other' teams have not, and if Nottingham got kicked out of the NIC and started playing BNL then im sure panthers crowds would drop in a new york minute, you only have to look at mid week cross league fixtures. Doesn't make any difference what league the midweek fixtures are.... the attendances still drop - that's the nature of midweek games. Who cares if other teams have been superleague before? Take them as they are now..... look at Hull - they gave us a good game, and they were never in the ISL.
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Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Dec 3, 2004 16:18:50 GMT
Shaggy, I'm afraid I,m in the 'them and us' camp. For sure it would be graet to have one big happy family, but with the present personnel at all levels of the sport there is too much mistrust. At the moment the EIHL seems to be doing a good job, the teams are pretty well matched, etc. Maybe its head in the sand stuff, but better the Devil you know than the devil you dont. When certain personnel from both the EIHL and the BNL have moved on it maybe time to start afresh, draw a line in the sand, but its not happening at the moment. HL I see what you are saying..... and I can even agree with some of the principles behind it. But we have to be coldly realistic - the devil we know is not fundamentally in much better shape than the devil we don't.... and we could be waiting years or even decades for certain people to drop out of the equation. If we're talking about bad owners... why is no-one demanding that Sheffield get chucked out of the EIHL, because they've not exactly done too well on that score, have they? Or if we are talking about people who have harmed the sport - what about Simms? - nobody has demanded that Sheffield be exclused on the basis of his muppetry. So.... why should the huge question of whether this club or that club should be allowed into the EIHL depend upon one or two personalities? We have to be realistic about this...... and yes - it is head in the sand stuff, and we simply cannot afford that. We are much more likely to be stronger together than we would be seperately..... and if we force clubs into extinction, then we will hurt ourselves as well. I'm being selfish - I want my team and my sport to prosper...... and if that means having to smooth over a few wrinkles and having to let a grudge or two die..... then so be it.
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Post by girdeaux on Dec 3, 2004 16:21:13 GMT
I'm being selfish - I want my team and my sport to prosper...... and if that means having to smooth over a few wrinkles and having to let a grudge or two die..... then so be it. No you aren't being selfish Shaggy, you've hit the nail right on the head.
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Milkman™
Les Strongman
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Post by Milkman™ on Dec 3, 2004 16:39:26 GMT
I'm being selfish - I want my team and my sport to prosper...... All fans want that, but at what cost. No 'lower league' (for want of a better phrase) team is going to want to come and play the big boys and getr their butts kicked week in week out. Lets liken this to football (and i know your views on that so keep em to yourself), there are literally 1000's of clubs from junior upto pro. Yet only 4 or 5 of these make decent money and get only 30 or so get decent crowds, and thats with sky showing 400 live games a season. Maybe it is time to realsie that this is as good as it gets, that plateau has been reached and thats as far as we go. Minority sport is what we are and nothing is going to change that.
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Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Dec 3, 2004 17:40:49 GMT
No 'lower league' (for want of a better phrase) team is going to want to come and play the big boys and getr their butts kicked week in week out. Sounds like London Racers last season...... now look at them. Last season, Hull Stingrays were the whipping boys of the BNL - this season they've been taking scalps left, right and centre - including turning over 3 of the EIHL teams. Teams at the 'butt-being-kicked' stage usually move onwards and upwards..... who's to say that any BNL teams coming into the EIHL wouldn't do just that? And there's one very good reason why a 'lower-league' team might want to come into the EIHL...... money. Increased gate receipts from larger numbers of EIHL away fans are more than just a possibility - the Edinburgh Capitals had their attendance record broken the other week when Coventry took over 200 fans up there. Plus there's that revenue-sharing safety net that the EIHL has (and the BNL doesn't). That could be attractive to a team with potential financial worries.... and before anyone comes out with the almost-inevitable 'spongeing' remark.... remember, the EIHL owners all agreed to the idea right at the start - so THEY must think it's a good idea! Minority sport, yes.... don't think anyone's claiming otherwise. But "this is as good as it gets"?? - I don't believe that for a minute! There is an ENORMOUS amount of potential still unrealised by the sport at this level. There's so much more that could be done, everything could be so much better run and much more stable..... and that's without even thinking about expansion etc. There's potential (eventual) room for that, too.
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Post by jps on Dec 3, 2004 17:47:22 GMT
I am of a similar point of view to Heanorlair, but perhaps not quite as forthright. I would like a combined league or all BNL teams to join the EIHL. But not at the cos of de-stabilising what has been buit so far.
I dont pretend to know all the financial implications of Steelers games , subsidies or whatever, but i trust the EIHL owners to look after themselves first. Only expanding to a point where it still remains viable for the current teams who took the risk 2 years ago.
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Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Dec 3, 2004 17:52:18 GMT
I am of a similar point of view to Heanorlair, but perhaps not quite as forthright. I would like a combined league or all BNL teams to join the EIHL. But not at the cos of de-stabilising what has been buit so far. That's a fair enough point....... but what you have to remember is that the league is not a totally independent and self-sufficient entity. It depends, at least partly, upon the sport as a whole being healthy - otherwise we're hurt as well. No good being the healthiest branch on the tree if the trunk is creaking.......
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Milkman™
Les Strongman
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Post by Milkman™ on Dec 3, 2004 18:04:10 GMT
There is an ENORMOUS amount of potential still unrealised by the sport at this level. There's so much more that could be done So why has Messers Black and Moran been able to tap this in Nottingham. On the business side of things we are the most succesful team in British Ice Hockey, coupled with Gary Moran who i believe is the best GM this sport in this country has ever had. Surley these guys, if only for selfish reasons have tried everything there is to make Hockey a success in Nottingham, and by sucess i mean packed houses.
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ktglitz
Robert Lachowicz
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Post by ktglitz on Dec 3, 2004 18:11:04 GMT
Part of the problem of selling the sport is newbies is trying to explain to them that our league structure is a complete shower!
How can anybody grasp the concept of two 7 teams leagues that are totally independent with no real definition of which is the higher/lower and no promotion/relegation between them and that the governing body are just a bunch of people who have no real say in what goes on in the leagues (at this moment in time anyway)
Why do you think that big sponsors don't want to get involved at a league level. Why can't the sport get government funding for the national team? Answer, cos the way we run things is a complete farce compared with most other sports. The potential is there as we know as we all attend games on a regular basis. Getting fans to come along and stay is the harder part, and it isn't all just about the price of a ticket.
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