Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Oct 21, 2007 10:46:31 GMT
Last night's poor performance has only brought this to a head.... these are thoughts (and shouts at the bench! ) that I've had for a while now... I don't think that it's that we haven't got the right tools for the job. It's that we're not using them right. So... three little wishes - Panthers, please grant them. 1). Get your heads together. You know you've got a job to do and you know what it is. Pay attention for the full 60 minutes - you've done it before, other teams do it... so keep your mind on the job for the full duration of the game. Look where you're going. Try to keep a general eye on what's going on, where the puck is, etc. Don't dawdle back to the bench when you're changing shift and put us offside on a perfectly good attack - get off the ice and let the new shift on PDQ! Etc etc... 2). Defencemen. Your designation gives you a clue as to your job - DEFENCE!!! Please - only stay forward for as long as you can hold your breath... stay back in the defensive zone and actually stop those pesky opposition forwards! Leave the attacking stuff to our forwards, that's what they are there for - and IMHO they'll do a much better job of it when they don't have to keep half their mind on defence (I swear that PC Drouin has been playing more defensively than half of our D-men!). Last night was the latest and best example - there have been others - look at how Newcastle defended! They virtually built a ruddy wall around their netminder! Sheffield trapped and stifled... both teams beat us with defence. 3). Please... I beg of you... for the love of <insert deity name here> - stop the long passes! Hang on - let me put it more clearly... STOP THE LONG PASSES!! They are killing us! How many times did we ice it up at Manchester, against Sheffield, at Edinburgh, etc? We are giving possession away. We can't score if we don't have the puck! And the opposition can if they've got it. Seems fairly obvious to me... The long passes are not working. Either the receiving forward doesn't receive the pass - and it usually goes to icing - or they do manage to connect... but can't control it and it bounces off the stick! Either way - how many times does it work? One try in ten? And then the lone forward has to go in and beat usually at least one D-man and then the netminder. Not good odds, even for the best of forwards. Sure - the (very) few times it comes off, it's a joy to watch... but the overall chances are not good. Play the percentages... carry the puck into the zone, short, controlled passes, with forwards that are supporting each other. It seems to work for other teams. We've got the speed for it, we've got the skill for it, and we've got enough toughness (ie: ability to shrug off opposing players' interference) for it. This Panthers team CAN beat any other team - I firmly believe that. If they play as a team, and if they play it smart. We've not seen anywhere near enough of that IMHO.... Three little wishes. Where's a genie when you need one? ;D
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Post by dirtyden on Oct 21, 2007 10:57:18 GMT
Hold on Shaggy, pay attention for the full sixty minutes, we cant put three periods of trying together, you disagreed with me when I posted that, youv'e changed your tune, or is it Because Belfast have won a couple of games? We haven't got the tools for the job, thats the whole point if we had we wouldn't continually play so awful.
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Post by thunder2 on Oct 21, 2007 10:57:58 GMT
Hear hear Shaggy. Couldn't have put it any better.
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Post by dirtyden on Oct 21, 2007 11:13:31 GMT
Well written thunder2, what games have you been watching this season?
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Post by mattscold on Oct 21, 2007 11:16:18 GMT
I htink Shaggy has got it spot on with that, and before you ask Den i've only missed 1 game! EDIT: because i'm a muppet and put the wrong name
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Post by dirtyden on Oct 21, 2007 11:44:53 GMT
Don't think tex will say anything.
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Milkman™
Les Strongman
Always Delivers
Posts: 5,300
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Post by Milkman™ on Oct 21, 2007 12:26:33 GMT
1 .You say stop the long passes, but isn't that how ME was so successful with Bracknell?
2. Long passing is the European way, the N Americans don't understand it, and can't play it.
3. You mention PC, he will always shine in a league of our standard, we need a decent centre to play him with.
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Post by Mark Mac on Oct 21, 2007 12:32:24 GMT
I think they are 3 very valid points. The biggest annoyance is those long passes that very rarely turn into a goal, and usually turn into the other team being on offence.
As for the 60 minutes thing, I think we're getting better, altho it seems to be less about the minutes and more about 'which periods are we awake for'. For a few games we were awake 1st, asleep 2nd, drowsy 3rd. Then it turned into awake 1st and 2nd and drowsy 3rd. Didn't see last night so i can't comment but appears to be going in right direction in general for this point.
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Post by Mark Mac on Oct 21, 2007 12:34:02 GMT
1 .You say stop the long passes, but isn't that how ME was so successful with Bracknell? 2. Long passing is the European way, the N Americans don't understand it, and can't play it. That maybe true, however it rarely ever works for the panthers. Tried it last season and so often lost the puck, try it this season and lose the puck a scary amount of the time.
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Milkman™
Les Strongman
Always Delivers
Posts: 5,300
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Post by Milkman™ on Oct 21, 2007 12:37:50 GMT
1 .You say stop the long passes, but isn't that how ME was so successful with Bracknell? 2. Long passing is the European way, the N Americans don't understand it, and can't play it. That maybe true, however it rarely ever works for the panthers. Tried it last season and so often lost the puck, try it this season and lose the puck a scary amount of the time. Like I said, maybe that's all ME knows? This type of game is alien to the North Americans, many have said so. Back to the coaching manual I think, lets play clutch and grab for while, niggle a little get under the other teams skin, cause silly penalties and score on the PP. Gary, call me, I think I have the answer right there.
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Post by gazzathedevil on Oct 21, 2007 12:48:45 GMT
That maybe true, however it rarely ever works for the panthers. Tried it last season and so often lost the puck, try it this season and lose the puck a scary amount of the time. Like I said, maybe that's all ME knows? This type of game is alien to the North Americans, many have said so. Back to the coaching manual I think, lets play clutch and grab for while, niggle a little get under the other teams skin, cause silly penalties and score on the PP. Gary, call me, I think I have the answer right there. Good players can adapt to whatever system they are asked to play, I am sure there are teams in north america who play the long pass game.
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puckedup
Jade Galbraith
Italians do it with there skates on.
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Post by puckedup on Oct 21, 2007 12:59:01 GMT
Good players can adapt to whatever system they are asked to play, I am sure there are teams in north america who play the long pass game. I think we have good players, its just sometimes it can take a while to adapt if there not playing the type of game there used to and good at. Not making exscuces for last night, that was simply awfull.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2007 13:17:22 GMT
Like I said, maybe that's all ME knows? This type of game is alien to the North Americans, many have said so. Back to the coaching manual I think, lets play clutch and grab for while, niggle a little get under the other teams skin, cause silly penalties and score on the PP. Gary, call me, I think I have the answer right there. Good players can adapt to whatever system they are asked to play, I am sure there are teams in north america who play the long pass game. you always seem to come out and say something different Gazza, do teams in the AHL have players who can skate onto a puck travelling at 80 mph 2 feet off the ground, find out and let me know. anyway Good post shagster , newcastle have a novel approach , sign 4 d men who can defend and 2 extremely big lads, Rob Wilson has recruited well
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Yotes
Forum Admin
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Post by Yotes on Oct 21, 2007 13:46:04 GMT
Didn't see last night so i can't comment but appears to be going in right direction in general for this point. We were asleep for all 3
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Post by gazzathedevil on Oct 21, 2007 15:29:55 GMT
Good players can adapt to whatever system they are asked to play, I am sure there are teams in north america who play the long pass game. you always seem to come out and say something different Gazza, do teams in the AHL have players who can skate onto a puck travelling at 80 mph 2 feet off the ground, find out and let me know. anyway Good post shagster , newcastle have a novel approach , sign 4 d men who can defend and 2 extremely big lads, Rob Wilson has recruited well I just think that it was a poor argument from Kimble as to a reason why its not going right for you guys at the moment Molin, Wallenberg, Stancock arent north american players for a start. Drouin and Bergin (albeit a small stint) have played European hockey and mcaslan hasnt had any problems scoring so he obviously has no problem with the system! Personally from a Panthers viewpoint i think the problems arise at the back, i dont think the netminding is strong enough and as a result the Defense doesnt have enough confidence in the netminder. Ellis is a good coach and he will get it right, i dont think sacking him would be the answer and i think patience is probably the key for the Panthers organisation. Now i know Panthers fans will level that they will be patient long enough but other than Adey has a coach been given a long enough crack of the whip to put his mark on the organisation?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2007 15:33:58 GMT
you always seem to come out and say something different Gazza, do teams in the AHL have players who can skate onto a puck travelling at 80 mph 2 feet off the ground, find out and let me know. anyway Good post shagster , newcastle have a novel approach , sign 4 d men who can defend and 2 extremely big lads, Rob Wilson has recruited well . Ellis is a good coach and he will get it right, i dont think sacking him would be the answer and i think patience is probably the key for the Panthers organisation. Now i know Panthers fans will level that they will be patient long enough but other than Adey has a coach been given a long enough crack of the whip to put his mark on the organisation? The problem with Ellis is that he fails to identify is mistakes from the previous year and does exactly the same thing the following one, most will know what i mean by that . He may get it right but if it means taking a further 5 years to get the basics right from the recruitment side, thanks ... but no thanks
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Milkman™
Les Strongman
Always Delivers
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Post by Milkman™ on Oct 21, 2007 15:49:24 GMT
I just think that it was a poor argument from Kimble as to a reason why its not going right for you guys at the moment So you think However it seems that ME only has the single style, he seems unable to adapt. So you reckon the defence have no faith in netminder, well to use Real Madrids ethos, it does not matter how many goals you let in as long as you score more than your opponents. Panthers problem is that they cannot score, even against the bottom of the league where we should score hats full for fun, we don't. As others have so eloquently put why is PC Drouin (undoubtedly one of the best scorers ever to lace skates in this league) playing a defensive role. I think the amazing thing about this thread is that Shaggy has actually had a go at the Panthers (he must have put the rose tinted away, now the nights are drawing in) PS come on Hamilton - 9 minutes away from glory.
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Post by texpef on Oct 21, 2007 16:04:25 GMT
In my mind the main areas for improvement arent necessarily those quoted:-
1. We need to win faceoffs, we cant at the moment and the reason imho for this is we dont have a first line centre, nothing to do with tools but recruitment.. 2. We need a defence that can defend, something that has been lacking for several weeks, there seems to be a distinct lack of communication between the keeper and his so called defencemen... 3. These so called high scoring forwards need to do what they are paid to do and that is score more goals...
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Post by killercarlson on Oct 21, 2007 16:48:44 GMT
The long pass is Ellis method of beating trap hockey. (I hope he can think of another one before we play Shuff again...!!)
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Post by gazzathedevil on Oct 21, 2007 22:35:17 GMT
I just think that it was a poor argument from Kimble as to a reason why its not going right for you guys at the moment So you think However it seems that ME only has the single style, he seems unable to adapt. So you reckon the defence have no faith in netminder, well to use Real Madrids ethos, it does not matter how many goals you let in as long as you score more than your opponents. Panthers problem is that they cannot score, even against the bottom of the league where we should score hats full for fun, we don't. As others have so eloquently put why is PC Drouin (undoubtedly one of the best scorers ever to lace skates in this league) playing a defensive role. Well yeah i do think or else i wouldnt have said it You could use the real madrid ethos but i wouldnt its a different sport where different methods of play are going to count. for example you can play posession football but posession hockey is a lot harder to do. Look at teams who have been successful in past season. Sheffield won the elite league because players like Peron were so dependable at both ends of the ice. Every coventry team have had that ethos as well. The Devils side of last season had Smith, birbrear, Ianazzo who all worked their socks off in the defensive zone. The only team to have done run and gun hockey successfully are the Giants and even they stuttered over the finish line that year (damn good team though!) In fact pretty much every good team from the ISL era up have been good at team defending and the real madrid thing just hasnt worked for anyone other than the Giants.
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Post by grumpyminer on Oct 22, 2007 3:08:10 GMT
The long pass is Ellis method of beating trap hockey. (I hope he can think of another one before we play Shuff again...!!) But the Vipers weren't playing the trap. So why were we "dumping". Steelers only played the trap in the first period and we were well on top, they adapted and went on to win. Panthers have no Plan B (and hardly a Plan A, at the moment)
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MP
Paul Adey
Hail hurts and rain is cold. Summer in the mountains
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Post by MP on Oct 22, 2007 8:26:55 GMT
I'd like to see us clearing the defensive zone properly. It beggars belief how many times we fail to get the puck out of the zone to lift the pressure on our goal. Our lack of defensive defencemen and Rastos goal keeping style means we don't defend at all well when put under sustained pressure. Failure to clear the zone just allows that pressure to grow. That combined with the inability to win face offs when Myers isn't on the ice means yet more pressure on a fragile defence. Lack of possession from restarts hurts us in the offensive zone as well - instead of building pressure on the opposition they win the face off and clear the puck down the ice in a no nonsense manner leaving us to try an build another attack. Which is proving difficult seeing as we lack a good play maker. Speed is our main ace but we're struggling to use it. The resort to ever more desperate long passes seems to be causing us more pain than gain. Used well it's a very effective tactic, used unwisely it's suicidal. Frustration at he lack of an outlet results in the Neilson and Peletier carrying the puck forward in an attempt to get things going - leaving our defence even more vulnerable. So after all that, my wish would be for a quick fix to all the problems - but I don't believe in tooth fairies either. Failing that, I wish Mike Ellis would devise an intensive training regime to sort out the failure to clear the defensive zone - and keep working at it until they can do it effectively on a regular basis. Not a lot to ask surely.
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Shorty
Paul Adey
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Post by Shorty on Oct 22, 2007 8:35:51 GMT
In my mind the main areas for improvement arent necessarily those quoted:- 1. We need to win faceoffs, we cant at the moment and the reason imho for this is we dont have a first line centre, nothing to do with tools but recruitment.. 2. We need a defence that can defend, something that has been lacking for several weeks, there seems to be a distinct lack of communication between the keeper and his so called defencemen... 3. These so called high scoring forwards need to do what they are paid to do and that is score more goals... Best post ever by Texpef
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Rich
Paul Adey
Go hard or go home
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Post by Rich on Oct 22, 2007 8:55:42 GMT
Weve got no Defence, an average at best Netminder, no agitator, no natural first line centre but most of all as Thommo said after the game to a guy stood next to me... "thats what happens when you sign a team full of good players with no heart".
Somethings got to give or attendances will drop over the coming weeks and then starts a spiral we really dont want!
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Shaggy
Forum Moderator
Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
Posts: 10,995
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Post by Shaggy on Oct 22, 2007 9:37:17 GMT
The way I see it, we've got several problems... but most of them seem to be 'cascade' issues... problems caused by an earlier problem. Solve one, and you might solve several. What's the key problem as I see it? The defence. Right now, the defence just isn't defending - it's attacking. Leaving very little in the way of defence behind it. Hence all the goals we're leaking. So the forwards are having to keep half their attention on going backwards instead of forwards... reducing the number and quality of goalscoring chances. That's secondary problem #1 (and it's a biggie!) Then there's Rasto. He's very good at playing the puck (faking out players) - but he's also going out of his crease far too much. He's trying to be a D-man. Why? - because he obviously thinks he's got no choice! Bring the D-men back to where they should be - in front of Rasto - and I bet you he'll cut WAY back on the wandering. Secondary problem #2 sorted. Then these long passes. Now I'm sure that these are part of the main team plan (why? ?)... but with half of the forwards having to drop back to our blue-line, I imagine the temptation to make the quick long pass to the lone unsupported forward up high is near irresistable. Well - already covered what happens there... But if the forwards are released to do their real job - that of attacking - then they'll be free to maraud up there mob-handed... skating the puck in, short passes, mutual support - ie: real offence. That's a third problem at least partly dealt with. Sort out the defence, and I honestly think that the whole lot will improve.
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