Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Apr 23, 2018 23:30:18 GMT
Thought Brisebois was our best until his premature departure. Good job we didn't bother replacing him really.
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Post by wgray on Apr 24, 2018 6:11:06 GMT
What an absolute crock ! Based on the fact that she took no penalties, didn't once cough up the puck and always swept up any lose rubbish my mother was the best defenceman for Panthers last year ! "Based on ability, not application " And people wonder why we get what we deserve, when folk say stuff like that. Based on performance, over a range of defenceman characteristics ! Don’t start this again.
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Sauve
Apr 24, 2018 6:54:16 GMT
Post by cooperphil156 on Apr 24, 2018 6:54:16 GMT
Agreed... Sauve was highly skilled, no question... but also prone to taking stupid penalties, making horrendous giveaways and forgetting that the first job of a defenceman is - surprise, surprise - to defend! 'Best' D-man - based on actual defending, not scoring points - for me was Tim Billingsley. Solid, not flashy, just got on with the job. Thought Brisebois was our best until his premature departure. Comfortably. Agree - but one wonders if with a new coach he might have improved on his defensive performance in the second season. He was signed up for a 2 or 3 year stint, so presumably there is a release payment? Werner v Sauve - comfortably Werner for me
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Yotes
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Sauve
Apr 24, 2018 11:22:16 GMT
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Post by Yotes on Apr 24, 2018 11:22:16 GMT
I would think our multi year deals probably have get outs for club and player at the end of every season anyway, doubt there's any money changed hands.
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Post by texpef on Apr 24, 2018 11:24:36 GMT
i too thought he was our best d man hence the reason he was paired with probably the weakest.... Lee, however, he did make some costly mistakes with penalties and positions but then who at EIHL level doesnt?
For me i would have re-signed him but its all academic if he decided to move on which he clearly has, so good luck in the future Yann as long as it isnt against us..
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Sauve
Apr 24, 2018 11:34:57 GMT
Post by bobness on Apr 24, 2018 11:34:57 GMT
I know you’ve collected the stats and he’s obviously not the best numbers wise, so who was? Here's the skinny. League +/- overall, Number of "minuses" (i.e. on the ice when a goal is conceded) Sauve +1, 54 Lee +12, 45 Brisebois -7, 16 Billingsley +15, 40 Gagnon +4, 37 Spang +15, 33 Based on that I'd say Spang has the best stats on what we know. Best +/-, lowest minuses in total. (6 games injured though). Gagnon/Billingsley a fairly close second. You'd do well to adjust for icetime though, which is where lee may look better, as Sauve's partner, he got a bit more icetime than the other 4, I'd say. (That was certainly the case in the CHL) Up to when Brisebois left, to make a more reasonable comparison Sauve -6, 39 Lee +1, 33 Brisebois -7, 16 (but had 7 games injured) Billingsley +5, 27 Gagnon +3, 19 Spang -1, 23 Based on that, it's probably Gagnon? Maybe even Brisebois himself? (only 16 minuses) Of course, how you define "best Dman" and the stats you need aren't always agreed upon. Given that a Dman's primary job is to stop the other team scoring, I'd say a decent shout would be use "ice time per minus" as the mnetric to measure how "good" a Dman is. Sadly, we don't have ice time stats. So it's a matter for opinion.
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BigLad
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Post by BigLad on Apr 24, 2018 12:00:04 GMT
A bit of a let down for me in the end. Clearly very talented but also very inconsistent. That is basically the entirety of last season's squad.
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iginla
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Sauve
Apr 24, 2018 12:29:36 GMT
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Post by iginla on Apr 24, 2018 12:29:36 GMT
Plus/minus stats do depend on who your playing against too though. If your coach keeps matching you up against the opppsitions top line all the time then your likely to concede more goals. But if you’re a number 3 D pairing playing against 3rd and 4th forward lines a lot then it makes a big difference.
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iginla
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Sauve
Apr 24, 2018 12:31:46 GMT
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Post by iginla on Apr 24, 2018 12:31:46 GMT
A bit of a let down for me in the end. Clearly very talented but also very inconsistent. That is basically the entirety of last season's squad. True....apart from the “very talented” bit. Sorry, but the vast majority just weren’t !
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Jord v4
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Post by Jord v4 on Apr 24, 2018 12:37:32 GMT
I would think our multi year deals probably have get outs for club and player at the end of every season anyway, doubt there's any money changed hands. All Panthers contracts have this, even the Brits. At least they have/had under Neilson anyway. Times may be about to change though.
GM has very little to do with player signings/contracts.
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Yotes
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Sauve
Apr 24, 2018 13:11:46 GMT
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Post by Yotes on Apr 24, 2018 13:11:46 GMT
Who does deal with them, the coach?
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Jord v4
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Sauve
Apr 24, 2018 13:25:11 GMT
Post by Jord v4 on Apr 24, 2018 13:25:11 GMT
Who does deal with them, the coach? Well, yes... That's obvious I would have thought.
I can imagine one of the terms for the new coach is complete roster/contract control.
It's always been Corey's budget... & it's always been a very good budget.
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Sauve
Apr 24, 2018 13:32:11 GMT
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Post by wgray on Apr 24, 2018 13:32:11 GMT
I know you’ve collected the stats and he’s obviously not the best numbers wise, so who was? Here's the skinny. League +/- overall, Number of "minuses" (i.e. on the ice when a goal is conceded) Sauve +1, 54 Lee +12, 45 Brisebois -7, 16 Billingsley +15, 40 Gagnon +4, 37 Spang +15, 33 Based on that I'd say Spang has the best stats on what we know. Best +/-, lowest minuses in total. (6 games injured though). Gagnon/Billingsley a fairly close second. You'd do well to adjust for icetime though, which is where lee may look better, as Sauve's partner, he got a bit more icetime than the other 4, I'd say. (That was certainly the case in the CHL) Up to when Brisebois left, to make a more reasonable comparison Sauve -6, 39 Lee +1, 33 Brisebois -7, 16 (but had 7 games injured) Billingsley +5, 27 Gagnon +3, 19 Spang -1, 23 Based on that, it's probably Gagnon? Maybe even Brisebois himself? (only 16 minuses) Of course, how you define "best Dman" and the stats you need aren't always agreed upon. Given that a Dman's primary job is to stop the other team scoring, I'd say a decent shout would be use "ice time per minus" as the mnetric to measure how "good" a Dman is. Sadly, we don't have ice time stats. So it's a matter for opinion. Interesting to see these figures and greatly appreciated. Maybe some day we can reach the point where, as a league, we can collect every statistic.
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Yotes
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Sauve
Apr 24, 2018 14:18:04 GMT
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Post by Yotes on Apr 24, 2018 14:18:04 GMT
Who does deal with them, the coach? Well, yes... That's obvious I would have thought.
I can imagine one of the terms for the new coach is complete roster/contract control.
It's always been Corey's budget... & it's always been a very good budget.
I'm surprised the GM doesn't have a say in what deals are given out tbh, not necessarily from a meddling point of view, but in terms of financial oversight.
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shinobi
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Sauve
Apr 24, 2018 14:51:25 GMT
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Post by shinobi on Apr 24, 2018 14:51:25 GMT
Who does deal with them, the coach? Club “ spokeswoman.”
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Jord v4
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Sauve
Apr 24, 2018 15:45:25 GMT
Post by Jord v4 on Apr 24, 2018 15:45:25 GMT
Well, yes... That's obvious I would have thought.
I can imagine one of the terms for the new coach is complete roster/contract control.
It's always been Corey's budget... & it's always been a very good budget.
I'm surprised the GM doesn't have a say in what deals are given out tbh, not necessarily from a meddling point of view, but in terms of financial oversight. He's not the meddler that many believe/peddle out on here. Corey always had his own contact with Mr Black.
GM is also rather a miss-leading title for him.
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Sauve
Apr 24, 2018 16:47:28 GMT
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Post by Rob Scott on Apr 24, 2018 16:47:28 GMT
Jord V4 is without doubt the greatest ITK this board has ever seen. RAOS.
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iginla
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Sauve
Apr 24, 2018 17:26:18 GMT
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EMB likes this
Post by iginla on Apr 24, 2018 17:26:18 GMT
I'm surprised the GM doesn't have a say in what deals are given out tbh, not necessarily from a meddling point of view, but in terms of financial oversight. He's not the meddler that many believe/peddle out on here. Corey always had his own contact with Mr Black.
GM is also rather a miss-leading title for him.
Black had the final say though. And if his great hockey wisdom didn’t think a player was worth what Corey wanted to pay,we didn’t get him ! It happened plenty of times.
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simonm
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Sauve
Apr 24, 2018 17:36:02 GMT
Post by simonm on Apr 24, 2018 17:36:02 GMT
) Of course, how you define "best Dman" and the stats you need aren't always agreed upon. That's because 'one size doesn't fit all' when assessing a player... It's a team sport where putting players on the same line to alleviate or enhance a characteristic is very important. Age and experience also is a factor on who you pair up on defence. An experienced slow reads the game well type plus a young fast athletic in the corners type You don't put two offensive minded defenceman on the same line not unless your wingers have very good hockey brains. Neither do you put two stay at home defenders on the same line, as you're gonna need one to bring the puck out or make that stretch pass. "Best defenceman" might not actually be based on his defensive capabilities but on preventing opposition players taking liberties with your star forward or netminder. Creating a spider web map of your teams players characteristics and overlaying them to reveal if you have a well rounded line or enhanced characteristic would be a valuable exercise, maybe even a bit of fun in the close season. Players are complex beasts
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Sauve
Apr 24, 2018 20:39:04 GMT
Post by bobness on Apr 24, 2018 20:39:04 GMT
The only icetime stats we have are for the CHL, so, excluding the games where Brisebois was injured and Gagnon chucked out... Dman wise (+/-, average icetime per game)
Sauve +2, 23:25 (That was second in the entire tournament, behind only Graham McCormack of Gap) Lee -5, 21:31 (14th in entire tournament) Brisebois +1, 18:08 (3 games only) Billingsley +2, 17:13 Gagnon +1, 16:48 Spang +0, 17:32
Lee doesn't come out of that one well, it must be said, but it was mostly the home game vs Mountfield, where Sauve was +3, Lee -1. Other games, the 2 were similar if not identical. That said, the whole team were heroes at that stage of the season.
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Sauve
Apr 24, 2018 20:55:04 GMT
Post by bobness on Apr 24, 2018 20:55:04 GMT
Here's a good one for you all.
Panthers only had one game last season in the league where they didn't get at least one powerplay opportunity. Which game? And against who did Panthers get the most PP chances in one game? (Clue, it was 8) :-)
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Yotes
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Sauve
Apr 24, 2018 21:21:01 GMT
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Post by Yotes on Apr 24, 2018 21:21:01 GMT
Here's a good one for you all. Panthers only had one game last season in the league where they didn't get at least one powerplay opportunity. Which game? And against who did Panthers get the most PP chances in one game? (Clue, it was 8) :-) Dunno which games, but no powerplays = Scotland, so I'll go something against Braehead. Loads of powerplays = indiscipline = Thomo or Finnerty, so I'll go something against Manchester. My logic is flawless.
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Jord v4
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Sauve
Apr 25, 2018 8:09:35 GMT
Post by Jord v4 on Apr 25, 2018 8:09:35 GMT
He's not the meddler that many believe/peddle out on here. Corey always had his own contact with Mr Black.
GM is also rather a miss-leading title for him.
Black had the final say though. And if his great hockey wisdom didn’t think a player was worth what Corey wanted to pay,we didn’t get him ! It happened plenty of times. Well yes, maybe, to an extent. Someone needs to oversee the whole process otherwise there's no control. That's common practice/sense.
I believe the budget wasn't always used to its full capabilities & the predominant reason was close to home.
The quality of roster Panthers put together for next season will certainly be very interesting & possibly very telling. As will the speed in which roster changes for injured/perceived under performing players are made.
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iginla
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Sauve
Apr 25, 2018 8:26:08 GMT
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Post by iginla on Apr 25, 2018 8:26:08 GMT
Black had the final say though. And if his great hockey wisdom didn’t think a player was worth what Corey wanted to pay,we didn’t get him ! It happened plenty of times. Well yes, maybe, to an extent. Someone needs to oversee the whole process otherwise there's no control. That's common practice/sense.
I believe the budget wasn't always used to its full capabilities & the predominant reason was close to home.
The quality of roster Panthers put together for next season will certainly be very interesting & possibly very telling. As will the speed in which roster changes for injured/perceived under performing players are made.
Indeed. I reckon next season will be very telling,show up a lot of Neilsons failings as a coach and people will finally realise what he should have done.
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Jord v4
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Sauve
Apr 25, 2018 8:33:07 GMT
Post by Jord v4 on Apr 25, 2018 8:33:07 GMT
Well yes, maybe, to an extent. Someone needs to oversee the whole process otherwise there's no control. That's common practice/sense.
I believe the budget wasn't always used to its full capabilities & the predominant reason was close to home.
The quality of roster Panthers put together for next season will certainly be very interesting & possibly very telling. As will the speed in which roster changes for injured/perceived under performing players are made.
Indeed. I reckon next season will be very telling,show up a lot of Neilsons failings as a coach and people will finally realise what he should have done. Agree entirely. Neilson had far more control than many realize. Certainly over roster changes & recruitment.
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