NIC Security?

[The Flying Shirt]

Passing a wavy wand over everyone on the way in which work about as well as the 1969 Star Trek phasers they use to scan tickets (and passing through with a big metal cigarette lighter and a bunch of house keys in my pocket and the guy in front did too last night with no problems at all). Big queues stacked up outside with no traffic bollards coming over the brow of the hill (facing the flow of traffic) which is very dangerous even in the event of a traffic accident. Letting the foyer fill up completely with people despite what happened in Manchester and letting skaters into the building with skate bags with a cursory wave of the hand too I saw last night.

What an utter waste of bloody time. Some idiot making a job for themselves or just simply ineptitude?

[Bagheera]

Sept 24, 2017 10:11:09 GMT The Flying Shirt said:

Passing a wavy wand over everyone on the way in which work about as well as the 1969 Star Trek phasers they use to scan tickets (and passing through with a big metal cigarette lighter and a bunch of house keys in my pocket and the guy in front did too last night with no problems at all). Big queues stacked up outside with no traffic bollards coming over the brow of the hill (facing the flow of traffic) which is very dangerous even in the event of a traffic accident. Letting the foyer fill up completely with people despite what happened in Manchester and letting skaters into the building with skate bags with a cursory wave of the hand too I saw last night.

What an utter waste of bloody time. Some idiot making a job for themselves or just simply ineptitude?

I'm glad you've started a thread again. Was going to post last week however the previous thread was locked for going off topic.

Nobody has an issue with the reasons these measures were implemented, but as you say. For what they are doing they may aswell not bother. I dont envy them having to search everybody with the likelyhood nobody is bringing anything dangerous in. Clearly though it leads to complacency and it only takes one mistake.

I know they have made some effort 1 side to give some Weather protection but not the other side. Imgine mid January at -5 degrees and the staff have to stand out there in the snow. It will only take a few games of low temperatures and pouring rain before casual fans say sod it and don't bother.
This will start to effect ticket sales(looking at last night maybe it already has), let's see how much they care about security then.

[tootootrain]

Sept 24, 2017 10:11:09 GMT The Flying Shirt said:

Passing a wavy wand over everyone on the way in which work about as well as the 1969 Star Trek phasers they use to scan tickets (and passing through with a big metal cigarette lighter and a bunch of house keys in my pocket and the guy in front did too last night with no problems at all). Big queues stacked up outside with no traffic bollards coming over the brow of the hill (facing the flow of traffic) which is very dangerous even in the event of a traffic accident. Letting the foyer fill up completely with people despite what happened in Manchester and letting skaters into the building with skate bags with a cursory wave of the hand too I saw last night.

What an utter waste of bloody time. Some idiot making a job for themselves or just simply ineptitude?

It's called 'Security Theatre'.

Who has checked the thousands of people who've been in the building before the 'security' folk set up their little tables?

Those nice big crowds that are created next to main roads by the ineffective security arrangements, what is to stop a potential terrorist using the method which has proved most effective recently? Namely, big vehicle at speed vs flesh and bone?

Are all the staff (both directly employed by the NIC and others) screened, both pre-employment and dad-to-day on arriving at work?

And what is this "can you take your hat off" rubbish? Have the 'forces of evil' designed a bomb, undetectable by inefficient wanding that can only be hidden in headwear?

Might buy one of these.

[moz]

They were checking hockey kit bags going in after Panthers games, some kit bags were being emptied out on the floor. Obviously dangerous shoulder pads etc in there. If they start making the checks more thorough we will never get in, there were huge queues last night to get through.I agree with the packed foyer it's the most tempting target I would imagine, they seem to be attempting to cram as many people in before opening the gates , think it was 6.05 last night .

[kievthegreat]

My wife has used those scanners for work and first time we came this year they weren't even holding it the right way. He was scanning thin air.

Also they are either turned off or had the sensitivity turned right down because like you've said, they don't pick up on things like keys which they should, hence why when these checks are done properly you need to take things like keys out of your pocket.

[The Flying Shirt]

Have to add that I am 110% behind security and the reasons behind it but watching the many people possibly vulnerable packed outside and the hundreds queued up in the foyer inside it just looks like an exercise in stupidity and futility.

[The Flying Shirt]

Sept 24, 2017 10:33:31 GMT kievthegreat said:

My wife has used those scanners for work and first time we came this year they weren't even holding it the right way. He was scanning thin air.

Also they are either turned off or had the sensitivity turned right down because like you've said, they don't pick up on things like keys which they should, hence why when these checks are done properly you need to take things like keys out of your pocket.

Every other time I have taken everything out of my pockets and didn't last night as I saw how slipshod they were using the scanners just to see if anything was picked up. Badly thought out and run security is worse than no security at all in my view and the huge crowds bound to be built up outside before a Steelers game is very worrying.

[Yotes]

Sept 24, 2017 10:11:09 GMT The Flying Shirt said:

...passing through with a big metal cigarette lighter and a bunch of house keys in my pocket and the guy in front did too last night with no problems at all

Blimey, the one I always seem to get goes off if I leave my chewing gum in my pocket.

I can see why they had to be seen to do something after Manchester, but I agree with what's been said here. Like Tootoo says it's theatre.

Sadly, if someone is going to do something monstrous I don't really see how this helps, and in some cases it could even make things worse. You have to rely on the security services to intervene long before it gets to the ticket queue at the NIC.

[Bagheera]

Sept 24, 2017 10:41:50 GMT Yotes said:

Sept 24, 2017 10:11:09 GMT The Flying Shirt said:

...passing through with a big metal cigarette lighter and a bunch of house keys in my pocket and the guy in front did too last night with no problems at all

Blimey, the one I always seem to get goes off if I leave my chewing gum in my pocket.

I can see why they had to be seen to do something after Manchester, but I agree with what's been said here. Like Tootoo says it's theatre.

Sadly, if someone is going to do something monstrous I don't really see how this helps, and in some cases it could even make things worse. You have to rely on the security services to intervene long before it gets to the ticket queue at the NIC.

I've been to every game since the first CHL fixture. Not taken anything out of my pockets once. And I go out of the arena to the pub in every break too so I get searched 3 times per game.

[tootootrain]

Sept 24, 2017 10:37:57 GMT The Flying Shirt said:

Have to add that I am 110% behind security and the reasons behind it...

Which are, I assume you mean, in response to the bombing in Manchester? A bombing that was carried out against a large crowd of people, pre-security/ticket check. All these checks are doing is changing the position of a potential target. In fact, with reference to crowds now a feature on Lower Parliament Street, the ineffective implementation of this 'security theatre' has increased the potential methods of attack (the as mentioned large moving vehicle vs flesh and bone).

...but watching the many people possibly vulnerable packed outside and the hundreds queued up in the foyer inside it just looks like an exercise in stupidity and futility.

Indeed.

[The Flying Shirt]

Sept 24, 2017 10:46:00 GMT Bagheera said:

Sept 24, 2017 10:41:50 GMT Yotes said:

Blimey, the one I always seem to get goes off if I leave my chewing gum in my pocket.

I can see why they had to be seen to do something after Manchester, but I agree with what's been said here. Like Tootoo says it's theatre.

Sadly, if someone is going to do something monstrous I don't really see how this helps, and in some cases it could even make things worse. You have to rely on the security services to intervene long before it gets to the ticket queue at the NIC.

I've been to every game since the first CHL fixture. Not taken anything out of my pockets once. And I go out of the arena to the pub in every break too so I get searched 3 times per game.

Second week of the season the security guy on the queue I was in looked worried that nothing was setting his scanner off so waved it up and down in front of the metal clip on his own security tag around his neck and it still didn't go off so he shrugged his shoulders and carried on. God forbid anything would ever happen but the huge amount of people stacked on the front of the arena completely vulnerable to moving vehicles makes me run cold after recent events on the news.

[tootootrain]

Of course the other issue with the NIC 'security' is that it's hardly the best and brightest out there. If you pay peanuts...

As The Flying Shirt has noted, when the 'security' staff can't even work out how to use their wands properly it hardly speaks well of the implementation of, what I'm sure is some over-paid security consultant's, plan.

[tootootrain]

The worrying thing is, when lay-men can see such obvious deficiencies in the security arrangements at the NIC, how much more apparent are they to individuals who spend every waking moment planning attacks against the populace?

But don't worry, wands will protect you. This is the Harry Potter universe isn't it?

[The Flying Shirt]

Sept 24, 2017 11:01:39 GMT tootootrain said:

Of course the other issue with the NIC 'security' is that it's hardly the best and brightest out there. If you pay peanuts...

As The Flying Shirt has noted, when the 'security' staff can't even work out how to use their wands properly it hardly speaks well of the implementation of, what I'm sure is some over-paid security consultant's, plan.

I was going to question the build up of people outside the front entrance (even in the event of a road traffic accident as just about everyone has seen the occasional car or motorbike go screaming through there) but in my own personal experience over the last few years the NIC run a policy that the customer is never right so didn't bother.

[dexter]

I assume this implemented for every event there? If so why not address concerns to the city council who have some involvement in the arena?

[PantherB]

I agree with many of the points made.


I feel that the Arena needs to employ proper security/bag/body searchers. Every time I've been through security this season I've always been near people in the queue who know the steward that scans them. Absolutely no problem with that, I know a few quite well as well, but the point is, when there's a relationship there, it makes the stewards more lenient to those who they know compared to those they don't know. 


I saw a bag get refused entry last night, it was a kids bag. Unsure what was inside but it was way below the max size and the family were straight up refused entry. I then saw a teenage girl with a backpack size bag, so cutting it very fine in terms of max size, the steward had a glance inside and they were allowed through no problem. I also saw a family actually in the arena during the game eating and drinking food bought from home/outside the arena. In containers, big bag of crisps which aren't on sale in the arena. They had a bag, smaller than the max requirements I'd say but surely they wouldn't have got the food in if the bag was searched correctly?


In regards to bollards, there's bollards on the Saltbox side, with metal planters across the entire 'square' too. The planters are real heavy so they would definitely slow a car down should the worst happen. I don't think it's too bad, obviously could be better with bigger and more bollards but what they have now is sufficient in comparison to the likes of the Skydome, Sheffield Arena. 

In an ideal world, I'd like the new shelters to be made permanent, straightened up a bit (they're at a weird angle) and fitted out with proper walk-thru metal detectors and a drugs/explosives dog with a couple Police Officers either side 10 minutes before doors open till the game starts and then 10 minutes before the scheduled finishing time. 

[tootootrain]

Sept 24, 2017 12:23:50 GMT dexter said:

I assume this implemented for every event there? If so why not address concerns to the city council who have some involvement in the arena?

The day-to-day operations are managed by Nottingham Ice Centre Limited (NICL), who are responsible for all aspects of the NIC's operations, including security.

The only real input NCC have these days is to support any operating losses that the NIC may have, which is a term of the agreement made to secure Lottery Funding for it's construction. This includes subsidising the hosting of the Play Off weekend, which is considered an 'operating loss' by NICL and thus is covered by NCC.

[The Flying Shirt]

Sept 24, 2017 12:44:13 GMT PantherB said:

I agree with many of the points made.


I feel that the Arena needs to employ proper security/bag/body searchers. Every time I've been through security this season I've always been near people in the queue who know the steward that scans them. Absolutely no problem with that, I know a few quite well as well, but the point is, when there's a relationship there, it makes the stewards more lenient to those who they know compared to those they don't know. 


I saw a bag get refused entry last night, it was a kids bag. Unsure what was inside but it was way below the max size and the family were straight up refused entry. I then saw a teenage girl with a backpack size bag, so cutting it very fine in terms of max size, the steward had a glance inside and they were allowed through no problem. I also saw a family actually in the arena during the game eating and drinking food bought from home/outside the arena. In containers, big bag of crisps which aren't on sale in the arena. They had a bag, smaller than the max requirements I'd say but surely they wouldn't have got the food in if the bag was searched correctly?


In regards to bollards, there's bollards on the Saltbox side, with metal planters across the entire 'square' too. The planters are real heavy so they would definitely slow a car down should the worst happen. I don't think it's too bad, obviously could be better with bigger and more bollards but what they have now is sufficient in comparison to the likes of the Skydome, Sheffield Arena. 

In an ideal world, I'd like the new shelters to be made permanent, straightened up a bit (they're at a weird angle) and fitted out with proper walk-thru metal detectors and a drugs/explosives dog with a couple Police Officers either side 10 minutes before doors open till the game starts and then 10 minutes before the scheduled finishing time. 

From the left hand side looking at the road from the arena (where the traffic is coming from) there are no bollards at all.

[tootootrain]

Sept 24, 2017 12:44:13 GMT PantherB said:

In regards to bollards, there's bollards on the Saltbox side, with metal planters across the entire 'square' too. The planters are real heavy so they would definitely slow a car down should the worst happen. I don't think it's too bad, obviously could be better with bigger and more bollards but what they have now is sufficient in comparison to the likes of the Skydome, Sheffield Arena.

That's all well and good (well it's not, but I'll let it slide for now) but that doesn't address the lack of protection afforded to those queuing on Lower Parliament Street from a potential ramming attack.

Whilst everyone is tripping over themselves to throw up security theatre to 'protect' against explosive devices*, the most glaringly simple attack (and one that has claimed 39 lives and injured 279 across Europe since the Manchester attack) is given a lovely, juicy target.

What is easier for a potential terrorist? Learn how to make an effective bomb or learn how to drive a big van/truck? Which is easier for said terrorist to get hold of?

Given the change in tactics we have seen of late to simple ramming attacks, the NIC's security measures are making crowds more vulnerable, not less. Of course this ignores the fact that should a terrorist want to plant an explosive device they could quite easily do it when security aren't in place or seek employment with one of the concession providers etc to bypass security.


(*Such security theatre as the 'sniffer dog' that has been present. Quite how said 'sniffer dog' can be effective when it's handler was allowing it to be petted by all manner of children etc, who could transfer any number of innocent but effective contaminants onto the dogs heads, reducing it's detecting abilities.

In the forces, search dog handlers would go nuts if we petted their dogs and there were warnings not to do it.)

[Robbie Nud]

I questioned last night about the doors on exit. If you are on the side of blocks 1 - 10 and you are going out towards bolero square there are 8 doors to use, four on the concourse and four in the foyer.
If you are on the other side of the arena and heading for LPS then you either have to go down two flights of stairs or use one of the two doors in the foyer because they wont open the doors outside blocks 12-13.
Was told talk to NIC.

[tootootrain]

Sept 24, 2017 14:01:34 GMT Robbie Nud said:

I questioned last night about the doors on exit. If you are on the side of blocks 1 - 10 and you are going out towards bolero square there are 8 doors to use, four on the concourse and four in the foyer.
If you are on the other side of the arena and heading for LPS then you either have to go down two flights of stairs or use one of the two doors in the foyer because they wont open the doors outside blocks 12-13.
Was told talk to NIC.

It's this kind of idiocy that really makes me question who is giving them security advice.

Reducing ingress routes is a given, as a part of needing to control access to those checked and ticketed to be at the event, but reducing egress routes?

To foil potential attackers you want to, when possible, widen attack options, not reduce them to particular choke points.

[Kovalchuk17]

The guy at the Manchester Arena attack caused a lot of damage to the building, that's the only reason the NIC keep us outside to check... although 'check' is used loosely depending on who scans you and how close to the event starting you are. I went to a gig recently, running late, and I barely broke my stride getting in.

Again too, the MEN attack wouldn't have been stopped by the security as he wasn't even at the gig! He walked up at the end.

What is there to stop anything happening at the end of a game/event, as the vast majority all pile out on Bolero Sq. and head up to Stoney Street - if they really cared/feared about public safety?

Unfortunately, if someone is that hell bent on doing something, they'll find a way.

[iginla]

Sept 24, 2017 16:48:54 GMT Kovalchuk17 said:

The guy at the Manchester Arena attack caused a lot of damage to the building, that's the only reason the NIC keep us outside to check... although 'check' is used loosely depending on who scans you and how close to the event starting you are. I went to a gig recently, running late, and I barely broke my stride getting in.

Again too, the MEN attack wouldn't have been stopped by the security as he wasn't even at the gig! He walked up at the end.

What is there to stop anything happening at the end of a game/event, as the vast majority all pile out on Bolero Sq. and head up to Stoney Street - if they really cared/feared about public safety?

Unfortunately, if someone is that hell bent on doing something, they'll find a way.

Absolutely nothing to stop anything at the end.

It's just another instance of the namby pamby,wrapped up in cotton wool,pc world we live in these days I'm afraid !

[Higgy]

Sept 24, 2017 14:13:52 GMT tootootrain said:

Sept 24, 2017 14:01:34 GMT Robbie Nud said:

I questioned last night about the doors on exit. If you are on the side of blocks 1 - 10 and you are going out towards bolero square there are 8 doors to use, four on the concourse and four in the foyer.
If you are on the other side of the arena and heading for LPS then you either have to go down two flights of stairs or use one of the two doors in the foyer because they wont open the doors outside blocks 12-13.
Was told talk to NIC.

To foil potential attackers you want to, when possible, widen attack options, not reduce them to particular choke points.

Reducing exit points mean the stewards can easier check who is coming back into the building I would assume. Two stewards stopped a man coming into the arena on exit last night who had a backpack on and was waving his passport around,he was then escorted away from bolero square.

[tootootrain]

Sept 24, 2017 18:08:00 GMT Higgy said:

Reducing exit points mean the stewards can easier check who is coming back into the building I would assume.

Yeah, cheers for that but perhaps you misunderstood. If you'd have read the previous paragraph to the one you quoted perhaps you wouldn't have posted that response.

For fullness...

Sept 24, 2017 14:13:52 GMT tootootrain said:

Reducing ingress routes is a given, as a part of needing to control access to those checked and ticketed to be at the event, but reducing egress routes?

To foil potential attackers you want to, when possible, widen attack options, not reduce them to particular choke points.

Two stewards stopped a man coming into the arena on exit last night who had a backpack on and was waving his passport around,he was then escorted away from bolero square.

And thanks to the restriction on exit options (forcing people leaving into that choke point), if he were there with nefarious intent he would have had a nice, more densely packed than need be, target.