Mozzy
Pat Casey
Cracking
Posts: 365
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Post by Mozzy on Apr 13, 2017 19:38:39 GMT
you make some gods points, I suppose the conference setup you suppose would be best with The four scots Blaze, Storm, Flames, Lightning Panthers, Steelers, Devils, Giants It is probably the best option to keep everyone happy It is the best blend of competitiveness and location at the end of the day, all teams should be happy enough with that. You need to get rid of the league format imo. The conferences can't work whilst ever the league title is the no.1 prize. Make the league more like the presidents trophy and turn the playoffs into the no.1 competition. This way those conferences will work. If not then the Clan would have far too much of an advantage in that Scots conference for me.
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Post by wgray on Apr 13, 2017 19:55:23 GMT
Good shout for the 3 groups of 4, everyone be happy bar Manchester a tad regards travelling. Would then say make it 3 home & away fixtures against teams in own conference, with 2 h & a, V the rest, for a 50 is plenty league campaign... Then go back to doing 2 groups of 4 for the play offs, playing each team in your group home & away. Then simply get Group winners V other Group runners up for Play off finals on the Saturday... EPL does this. It works apart from play off weekend. Need to take the top two in each play off group to the weekend otherwise it's just a duplicate of the challenge cup final and you would struggle to sell out the NIC at short notice unless it was Panthers v Steelers. could you not just have the three conferences and then 1 to 8 in the league table are your playoff seeds?
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,448
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Post by iginla on Apr 13, 2017 19:57:50 GMT
It is the best blend of competitiveness and location at the end of the day, all teams should be happy enough with that. You need to get rid of the league format imo. The conferences can't work whilst ever the league title is the no.1 prize. Make the league more like the presidents trophy and turn the playoffs into the no.1 competition. This way those conferences will work. If not then the Clan would have far too much of an advantage in that Scots conference for me. I agree Mozzy....Braehead "should" have a huge advantage. But history shows with the Clan,as with Panthers,that money means nothing UNLESS you spend what you can afford. Because of Mr Tightwad running both clubs....neither even threatened to challenge for the league and neither team even made POFW last season. In fact,in the last four seasons,or eight chances to,Panthers/Clan have only made POFW twice between them........and that was probably only because they played each other in the quarter final ! It certainly isn't just bad luck that both Mr Blacks teams constantly underachieve.....there is only one common denominator !!!!
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NP
Lorne Smith
Posts: 706
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Post by NP on Apr 13, 2017 21:05:49 GMT
Good shout for the 3 groups of 4, everyone be happy bar Manchester a tad regards travelling. Would then say make it 3 home & away fixtures against teams in own conference, with 2 h & a, V the rest, for a 50 is plenty league campaign... Then go back to doing 2 groups of 4 for the play offs, playing each team in your group home & away. Then simply get Group winners V other Group runners up for Play off finals on the Saturday... EPL does this. It works apart from play off weekend. Need to take the top two in each play off group to the weekend otherwise it's just a duplicate of the challenge cup final and you would struggle to sell out the NIC at short notice unless it was Panthers v Steelers. That's what I'm saying; top 2 from each play off group would reach the play off finals, as per it used to be 5-10 years ago, & as the EPL have carried on doing. Then the 8 teams qualifying for playoffs, would have 6 round robin group games, & with the top 2 from each group reaching the play off finals...
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,448
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Post by iginla on Apr 13, 2017 21:32:37 GMT
It works apart from play off weekend. Need to take the top two in each play off group to the weekend otherwise it's just a duplicate of the challenge cup final and you would struggle to sell out the NIC at short notice unless it was Panthers v Steelers. That's what I'm saying; top 2 from each play off group would reach the play off finals, as per it used to be 5-10 years ago, & as the EPL have carried on doing. Then the 8 teams qualifying for playoffs, would have 6 round robin group games, & with the top 2 from each group reaching the play off finals... Sounds good to me. 👍
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Post by PantherB on Apr 14, 2017 13:01:30 GMT
Gareth Chalmers seems to expect the conference system to remain as 2. With Belfast joining the Gardiner.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,448
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Post by iginla on Apr 14, 2017 13:08:32 GMT
Gareth Chalmers seems to expect the conference system to remain as 2. With Belfast joining the Gardiner. May as well just give the Giants next seasons league title trophy now then !
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Post by fishman on Apr 14, 2017 13:12:44 GMT
Gareth Chalmers seems to expect the conference system to remain as 2. With Belfast joining the Gardiner. May as well just give the Giants next seasons league title trophy now then ! That's been said about the Clan since the conference system was setup and guess what they've yet to win a title
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Post by tootootrain on Apr 14, 2017 13:20:32 GMT
I cannot understand any reasoning not to do 2 conferences x 6 teams. North - Belfast, Braehead, Dundee, Edinburgh, Fife, Sheffield South - Cardiff, Coventry, Guildford, Manchester, Milton Keynes, Nottingham It solves the issues of fairness and arena/rink teams are evenly split. Also helps spread the cost of travel as the most disadvantaged teams tend to be the larger teams in this scenario. As fans it solves the exploitation of the panthers/steelers games. The only thing that i can see driving a 3 conference system is Black and Morris squeezing every drop from their cash cow Very much this. I have absolutely no interest in a three conference split and indeed the prospect of such a set-up would likely see me attending a lot less games. If the plan is to keep Nottingham and Sheffield together purely for profit I'm sure I'm not the only person who'll turn their back on yet more 'biggest rivalry' tosh and find something else to do on those nights. Keeping Nottingham and Sheffield together should have absolutely no bearing on the make up of the league/conferences next season. It's pretty much a one way requirement, with Sheffield mainly needing to stay with Nottingham to provide some semblance of decent crowds/profit for them. The league doesn't revolve around Sheffield's bottom line and if they can't get decent numbers of (paying) customers through their doors regularly that is their look out and something they need to deal with, not the 11 other teams.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,448
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Post by iginla on Apr 14, 2017 14:35:33 GMT
May as well just give the Giants next seasons league title trophy now then ! That's been said about the Clan since the conference system was setup and guess what they've yet to win a title I know that. But we are talking the Belfast Giants here....NOT a run of the mill, make do and mend Neil Black team !!!!
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Post by Bagheera on Apr 14, 2017 14:54:44 GMT
I cannot understand any reasoning not to do 2 conferences x 6 teams. North - Belfast, Braehead, Dundee, Edinburgh, Fife, Sheffield South - Cardiff, Coventry, Guildford, Manchester, Milton Keynes, Nottingham It solves the issues of fairness and arena/rink teams are evenly split. Also helps spread the cost of travel as the most disadvantaged teams tend to be the larger teams in this scenario. As fans it solves the exploitation of the panthers/steelers games. The only thing that i can see driving a 3 conference system is Black and Morris squeezing every drop from their cash cow Very much this. I have absolutely no interest in a three conference split and indeed the prospect of such a set-up would likely see me attending a lot less games. If the plan is to keep Nottingham and Sheffield together purely for profit I'm sure I'm not the only person who'll turn their back on yet more 'biggest rivalry' tosh and find something else to do on those nights. Keeping Nottingham and Sheffield together should have absolutely no bearing on the make up of the league/conferences next season. It's pretty much a one way requirement, with Sheffield mainly needing to stay with Nottingham to provide some semblance of decent crowds/profit for them. The league doesn't revolve around Sheffield's bottom line and if they can't get decent numbers of (paying) customers through their doors regularly that is their look out and something they need to deal with, not the 11 other teams. From the time the 2 new teams were announced I stated it had to be 2 conferences of 6. It is 100% the correct structure. However I think it is becoming clear now that Black and the "bigger team" owners want the above set up. In fact it's the smaller rink teams in Scotland fighting(kicking and screaming) for the 3 conferenes of 4. Clearly geographically the North South split as above works well. For me I'd be happy to swap Sheffield and Cardiff going with east and west. I know that is keeping Sheffield and Panthers together but it suits more than just those 2 clubs. The 2x6 set up likely means only 3 home 3 away in conference too. So aside the Panthers Sheffield rivalry it helps Manchester. I believe Sheffield are Manchesters number 1 rival. Coventry have a good rivalry with both Panthers and Sheffield. And the only arguement anyone can have is Cardiff. However I think their rivalry with the Giants continues to grow and those 2, if not already will soon be each others biggest rivals. East, West keeps it as fair as the other set up, but also ticks a lot of boxes for all clubs involved. East: Nottingham, Sheffield, Coventry, Manchester, Guilford, Milton Keynes. West: Giants, Devils, Clan, Flyers, Stars, Capitals.
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Post by tootootrain on Apr 14, 2017 15:37:19 GMT
For me I'd be happy to swap Sheffield and Cardiff going with east and west. I know that is keeping Sheffield and Panthers together but it suits more than just those 2 clubs. The 2x6 set up likely means only 3 home 3 away in conference too. So aside the Panthers Sheffield rivalry it helps Manchester. I believe Sheffield are Manchesters number 1 rival. Coventry have a good rivalry with both Panthers and Sheffield. And the only arguement anyone can have is Cardiff. However I think their rivalry with the Giants continues to grow and those 2, if not already will soon be each others biggest rivals. East, West keeps it as fair as the other set up, but also ticks a lot of boxes for all clubs involved. East: Nottingham, Sheffield, Coventry, Manchester, Guilford, Milton Keynes. West: Giants, Devils, Clan, Flyers, Stars, Capitals. I doubt either Devils or Caps/Stars/Flyers would be happy with the East/West set up you propose, regardless of any developing Giants/Devils rivarly. From the Devils prospective it means every in-conference away trip is either a flight or a really long drive away. Whilst it can be argued that this is already a fact of life for the Giants, they entered into this state of affairs knowing it would always be so, Cardiff would be 'Gerrymandered' into it. Cardiff would also lose in-conference games featuring teams with the 1st and 2nd best (numbers wise) travelling supporters in league. Whilst attendances at IAW are currently good it would be a poor business decision to cast potential income aside. As for Caps/Stars/Flyers, a third of their in-conference games will require flights/long road journeys, but to off-set those huge extra costs you're hoping that their in country rivalries develop more than they managed to so far. Why not put the team with the 2nd best travelling support in their conference rather than the Devils? Travel time to Sheffield will be far less than to Cardiff and there ìs the potentìal for regular home games against Sheffield bringing better attendances. Nottingham and Sheffield need to be split up IMO.
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Post by kezypanther on Apr 14, 2017 16:33:33 GMT
Have to agree tootootrain, Devils shouldn't be put in that conference just for a rivalry that may never happen. Neither should Steelers be in our conference because we are rivals. Either way we will still play each other, in fact playing them 7 times over a season instead of 27 might actually increase the rivalry. In a 6 / 6 conference I would go:
Conference 1: Giants, Steelers, Clan, Stars, Flyers and Caps Conference 2: Panthers, Devils, Blaze, Storm, Lightning and Flames
Surely that is the most equal way of doing things? I really hope it doesn't go to 4/4/4 but if it did I would go:
Conference 1: Clan, Stars, Flyers and Caps Conference 2: Panthers, Devils, Blaze and Flames Conference 3: Giants, Steelers, Storm and Lightning
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Post by Bagheera on Apr 14, 2017 16:34:11 GMT
For me I'd be happy to swap Sheffield and Cardiff going with east and west. I know that is keeping Sheffield and Panthers together but it suits more than just those 2 clubs. The 2x6 set up likely means only 3 home 3 away in conference too. So aside the Panthers Sheffield rivalry it helps Manchester. I believe Sheffield are Manchesters number 1 rival. Coventry have a good rivalry with both Panthers and Sheffield. And the only arguement anyone can have is Cardiff. However I think their rivalry with the Giants continues to grow and those 2, if not already will soon be each others biggest rivals. East, West keeps it as fair as the other set up, but also ticks a lot of boxes for all clubs involved. East: Nottingham, Sheffield, Coventry, Manchester, Guilford, Milton Keynes. West: Giants, Devils, Clan, Flyers, Stars, Capitals. I doubt either Devils or Caps/Stars/Flyers would be happy with the East/West set up you propose, regardless of any developing Giants/Devils rivarly. From the Devils prospective it means every in-conference away trip is either a flight or a really long drive away. Whilst it can be argued that this is already a fact of life for the Giants, they entered into this state of affairs knowing it would always be so, Cardiff would be 'Gerrymandered' into it. Cardiff would also lose in-conference games featuring teams with the 1st and 2nd best (numbers wise) travelling supporters in league. Whilst attendances at IAW are currently good it would be a poor business decision to cast potential income aside. As for Caps/Stars/Flyers, a third of their in-conference games will require flights/long road journeys, but to off-set those huge extra costs you're hoping that their in country rivalries develop more than they managed to so far. Why not put the team with the 2nd best travelling support in their conference rather than the Devils? Travel time to Sheffield will be far less than to Cardiff and there ìs the potentìal for regular home games against Sheffield bringing better attendances. Nottingham and Sheffield need to be split up IMO. Yeah. Good points and I'm more than happy with the North, South suggestion. I'm just trying to add an alternative that may be on the cards as we all know the powers that be won't want to split Sheffield and Nottingham up. In my mind it certainly better than any 3 conference system and still reduces Steelers games. From the Scottish teams perspective maybe I am also underestimating the difference between travel to Sheffield & Cardiff. In my mind it is only swapping 1 extra game in Sheffield for 1 in Cardiff. As for Cardiff. You take 1 away game away per local team, that would likely be seperate trips. Replace that with a Scotish tripple header and double up some other away games. Whilst it does cost more it may not be as simple as a chunk more per away game. As I say. You are correct and the North South split is best. I'm simply giving another fair alternative in terms of even conferences.
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Post by Sheetmaself on Apr 14, 2017 17:31:50 GMT
Why cant we just have one league? I know the fixtures make it a bit difficult but if we played each team four times or something that someone cleverer than i can think of but there must be a solution better than having a small number of teams and then cutting them in half for two conferences.
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Post by spik on Apr 14, 2017 17:52:43 GMT
I wish we could play one league. Twice home and away to a 44 game schedule. Then throw in the extra games to better the play offs.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,448
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Post by iginla on Apr 14, 2017 18:03:06 GMT
Why cant we just have one league? I know the fixtures make it a bit difficult but if we played each team four times or something that someone cleverer than i can think of but there must be a solution better than having a small number of teams and then cutting them in half for two conferences. That's what they should do,one league of twelve. But they won't,because it's all about maximising Steelers v Panthers games. With one league you have to go 2 home 2 away giving a 44 game season,because 3 home 3 away gives 66 games which is too many. What they should do is the 44 game season and then extend the play offs.
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Post by spik on Apr 14, 2017 19:44:23 GMT
You can then have the play offs with the top 10 involved. 7, plays 10 and 8 plays 9 for a place versus 5th and 6th. At this same time 1plays 4 and 2 plays 3...the winners go into the semi and the losers plays the last remaining survivors of the first two rounds in order to join the first semi qualifiers.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,448
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Post by iginla on Apr 14, 2017 20:25:30 GMT
You can then have the play offs with the top 10 involved. 7, plays 10 and 8 plays 9 for a place versus 5th and 6th. At this same time 1plays 4 and 2 plays 3...the winners go into the semi and the losers plays the last remaining survivors of the first two rounds in order to join the first semi qualifiers. Blimey Spik. That's a bit beyond the EIHL hierarchy capabilities ya know. They can't even decide if we're going 2x6 or 3x4. 😂
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Post by John Casey on Apr 14, 2017 21:25:46 GMT
When exactly is this going to be sorted? Seriously, we've just finished last season and really we should be taking some down time before we start anticipating signing news. Currently it feels that the current season is still ongoing?
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Post by DonClaneone on Apr 14, 2017 22:28:15 GMT
Hopefully it gets finalized at the next board meeting at the end of the month.
Hope no one drops out.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,448
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Post by iginla on Apr 14, 2017 22:35:48 GMT
Hopefully it gets finalized at the next board meeting at the end of the month. Hope no one drops out. What's the betting it doesn't get finalised at the end of April board meeting. Either that,or they will come up with a right balls up of a decision ! 😩
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doug
Robert Lachowicz
Posts: 586
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Post by doug on Apr 15, 2017 9:03:54 GMT
I cannot understand any reasoning not to do 2 conferences x 6 teams. North - Belfast, Braehead, Dundee, Edinburgh, Fife, Sheffield South - Cardiff, Coventry, Guildford, Manchester, Milton Keynes, Nottingham It solves the issues of fairness and arena/rink teams are evenly split. Also helps spread the cost of travel as the most disadvantaged teams tend to be the larger teams in this scenario. As fans it solves the exploitation of the panthers/steelers games. The only thing that i can see driving a 3 conference system is Black and Morris squeezing every drop from their cash cow Very much this. I have absolutely no interest in a three conference split and indeed the prospect of such a set-up would likely see me attending a lot less games. If the plan is to keep Nottingham and Sheffield together purely for profit I'm sure I'm not the only person who'll turn their back on yet more 'biggest rivalry' tosh and find something else to do on those nights. Keeping Nottingham and Sheffield together should have absolutely no bearing on the make up of the league/conferences next season. It's pretty much a one way requirement, with Sheffield mainly needing to stay with Nottingham to provide some semblance of decent crowds/profit for them. The league doesn't revolve around Sheffield's bottom line and if they can't get decent numbers of (paying) customers through their doors regularly that is their look out and something they need to deal with, not the 11 other teams. With an arena average of almost 6000 I think you over-estimate the reliance on Nottingham games to boost income for Steelers. It used to be the case but the games with Panthers are fast losing their attraction. I don't it's a one way thing either as you seem to claim.
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Post by tootootrain on Apr 15, 2017 9:32:08 GMT
With an arena average of almost 6000... Attendance is one thing, paying attendees are quite another. Nope, I'm not. Visìts from the Panthers are still the only games that Steelers regularly break even on. Dave Simms had his little Twitter meltdown the other month based on the prospect of Steelers being moved to the 'Northern' conference, away from the Panthers. Ask him if you like. It's entirely one way. Like him or not him, Gary Moran has driven attendances up and, unlike other clubs, he is loathe to dish out freebie tickets just to plump the gate figures. Aside from the occasional dead rubber Challenge Cup game, Panthers are always well above break even, without the benefit of scuttling off to a rink for 'less popular' games. Whilst there are a core of decent Steelers fans, the majority are Sheffield fans rather than hockey fans. Ensuring their regular attendance is no dead cert. Panthers fans, on the otherhand, will turn up for the opening of a Panthers branded envelope and in good numbers, despite a team management that consistently seems to view the fans as purely a cash cow.
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Post by kivo1889 on Apr 15, 2017 14:18:19 GMT
With an arena average of almost 6000... Attendance is one thing, paying attendees are quite another. Nope, I'm not. Visìts from the Panthers are still the only games that Steelers regularly break even on. Dave Simms had his little Twitter meltdown the other month based on the prospect of Steelers being moved to the 'Northern' conference, away from the Panthers. Ask him if you like. It's entirely one way. Like him or not him, Gary Moran has driven attendances up and, unlike other clubs, he is loathe to dish out freebie tickets just to plump the gate figures. Aside from the occasional dead rubber Challenge Cup game, Panthers are always well above break even, without the benefit of scuttling off to a rink for 'less popular' games. Whilst there are a core of decent Steelers fans, the majority are Sheffield fans rather than hockey fans. Ensuring their regular attendance is no dead cert. Panthers fans, on the otherhand, will turn up for the opening of a Panthers branded envelope and in good numbers, despite a team management that consistently seems to view the fans as purely a cash cow. Just how do you know what the break even number is for Steelers games at the Sheffield Arena? They get over 170,000 punters through the door per season, they must be turning over the thick end of £2m a year.
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