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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2021 22:18:43 GMT
I can see an advantage, to Mr Black anyway. You place players on IR so that insurance (if it exists) pays their wages and then you don’t bring in either a 14th import or any other replacement players. You then tell your director of hockey to tell the fans the market is bare,the right players weren’t available and the fans all fall for it. Hey presto...more profit for Mr Black ! And a huge hike in the insurance premium next year. Not thought it through, have you? This isn't like your typical car insurance Bobby
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2021 22:21:13 GMT
In fairness to Iggy & Pidge, if you remove a possible financial benefit, our use of IR becomes ever more bizarre. In entirely unrelated news, I see Sheffield's quickfire replacement pickup Matias Sointu is now 7+3 from 6 games... It's bizarre to me and no one can convince me otherwise. How many other teams have announced players have been put on the IR and how often when they have had injuries? Just curious
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Post by bobness on Nov 3, 2021 22:27:58 GMT
And a huge hike in the insurance premium next year. Not thought it through, have you? This isn't like your typical car insurance Bobby Insurance is insurance. Player, car, life, business interruption. Many claims = premium rises. Pidgey.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2021 22:31:50 GMT
So you think panthers just carry on paying their players when on injury reserve then like normal?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2021 22:55:53 GMT
So you think panthers just carry on paying their players when on injury reserve then like normal? What I suspect happens, is as we know clubs and players on EIHL contracts generally have a 2 week notice period to give to their employer. Essentially a player can leave or a club can sack a player at 2 weeks notice. So this is pretty much the club's insurance policy. If Player A blows his ACL and is done for the season in October, the club will serve their 2 weeks notice as the player isn't able to honour the co tract due to injury. What I hope many of the players who play over here have is loss of employment insurance to cover their backs in case they get injured. I have the same insurance myself in case I can't work for any reason beyond my reasonable control. They cover 90% of my wages for a year if I can't work for a specified reason. Sure a Hockey player's premium will be higher than me because they carry a higher risk but this insurance actually exists. As mentioned, the same Panthers injury record year on year that you complain about, is the very reason the club(any club) would have to pay an astronomical fee to cover, making it not worth the premium. If you google Ice Hockey Player Insurance, you will see a whole market of insurers out there. There is nothing related to Hockey Club Insurance. The onus when it comes to insurance is on the player more than the team.
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Nov 3, 2021 23:05:43 GMT
So you think panthers just carry on paying their players when on injury reserve then like normal? What I suspect happens, is as we know clubs and players on EIHL contracts generally have a 2 week notice period to give to their employer. Essentially a player can leave or a club can sack a player at 2 weeks notice. So this is pretty much the club's insurance policy. If Player A blows his ACL and is done for the season in October, the club will serve their 2 weeks notice as the player isn't able to honour the co tract due to injury. What I hope many of the players who play over here have is loss of employment insurance to cover their backs in case they get injured. I have the same insurance myself in case I can't work for any reason beyond my reasonable control. They cover 90% of my wages for a year if I can't work for a specified reason. Sure a Hockey player's premium will be higher than me because they carry a higher risk but this insurance actually exists. As mentioned, the same Panthers injury record year on year that you complain about, is the very reason the club(any club) would have to pay an astronomical fee to cover, making it not worth the premium. If you google Ice Hockey Player Insurance, you will see a whole market of insurers out there. There is nothing related to Hockey Club Insurance. The onus when it comes to insurance is on the player more than the team. I would very much doubt a club can give two weeks notice and effectively sack an injured player. Can’t recall that ever happening in the EIHL and I think if it had then we would have heard all about it from the player concerned.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2021 23:10:26 GMT
What I suspect happens, is as we know clubs and players on EIHL contracts generally have a 2 week notice period to give to their employer. Essentially a player can leave or a club can sack a player at 2 weeks notice. So this is pretty much the club's insurance policy. If Player A blows his ACL and is done for the season in October, the club will serve their 2 weeks notice as the player isn't able to honour the co tract due to injury. What I hope many of the players who play over here have is loss of employment insurance to cover their backs in case they get injured. I have the same insurance myself in case I can't work for any reason beyond my reasonable control. They cover 90% of my wages for a year if I can't work for a specified reason. Sure a Hockey player's premium will be higher than me because they carry a higher risk but this insurance actually exists. As mentioned, the same Panthers injury record year on year that you complain about, is the very reason the club(any club) would have to pay an astronomical fee to cover, making it not worth the premium. If you google Ice Hockey Player Insurance, you will see a whole market of insurers out there. There is nothing related to Hockey Club Insurance. The onus when it comes to insurance is on the player more than the team. I would very much doubt a club can give two weeks notice and effectively sack an injured player. Can’t recall that ever happening in the EIHL and I think if it had then we would have heard all about it from the player concerned. It's literally been spoken about at length on this forum and is well known to be the case that EIHL have short notice periods in their contracts. It allows clubs and players to be fickle and get their best value for money. If Player is injured and not paid by his club, why would he complain about not being paid by them, because he's being paid by the insurer. It's not as complicated and seedy as you want to believe it is.
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Nov 4, 2021 0:13:42 GMT
I would very much doubt a club can give two weeks notice and effectively sack an injured player. Can’t recall that ever happening in the EIHL and I think if it had then we would have heard all about it from the player concerned. It's literally been spoken about at length on this forum and is well known to be the case that EIHL have short notice periods in their contracts. It allows clubs and players to be fickle and get their best value for money. If Player is injured and not paid by his club, why would he complain about not being paid by them, because he's being paid by the insurer. It's not as complicated and seedy as you want to believe it is. I know the standard EIHL contract is two weeks notice either way,that’s not the point up for any real debate. But I don’t think it’s the done thing or allowed to bullet a player just because he’s injured and you wouldn’t get away with doing that in the normal working world. I remember when Bob Wren got injured and the club stated that they thanked him for doing the gentlemanly thing and decided to retire rather than see out the season with the club sitting on the sidelines.
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Post by blackandgold73 on Nov 4, 2021 3:01:33 GMT
I would very much doubt a club can give two weeks notice and effectively sack an injured player. Can’t recall that ever happening in the EIHL and I think if it had then we would have heard all about it from the player concerned. It's literally been spoken about at length on this forum and is well known to be the case that EIHL have short notice periods in their contracts. It allows clubs and players to be fickle and get their best value for money. If Player is injured and not paid by his club, why would he complain about not being paid by them, because he's being paid by the insurer. It's not as complicated and seedy as you want to believe it is. Notice terms may be short for some but others are also announced as fixed term nowadays "here for the year", "for the rest of the season" "whilst doing his 2year MBA" etc. We've ended up with a few riding the bench we couldn't can if we wanted to. And length of notice is irrelevant if injured. After all they were injured "on the job" so the fact they can't *currently* do they job is the direct result of the job their employer asked them to do. A) it's an employment lawsuit waiting to happen if they're fired. Judge: "So you were hired to do this high risk job? You were injured doing this high risk job? Your employer fired you precisely for getting injured doing the very high risk job they hired you for, despite them knowing there was a good chance you might be injured doing it. They fired you and abandoned you with injuries? There's still a chance you'll recover and be able to return? But they fired you anyway to save money? Right, so *how big a settlement* would you like?" And, even ignoring that, B) Clubs that fired an injured player would find it virtually impossible to *ever* get any player to sign for them *ever* again. I can't think of a single example from the EIHL of a player being fired for being injured. The team would be shooting themselves in the foot. Perhaps a player has occasionally left a team after an injury in some leagues (their contract being paid off for the year) to free up a roster space but even that is rare. And the example of Wren doing the gentlemanly thing for the team has already been quoted. Why would a player sign for a team that fired injured players? As, if you did, and then got injured the club would have shown they have a tendency to abandon players to their injuries, to not honour contacts and to not pick up the associated costs or provide the necessary rehab and support. No agent would recommend any player signing a contract with that team ever again. In fact, treatment for injury and retention during recovery whilst recovery is possible is likely an integral part of the contract; it certainly was in my sport: you risk yourself playing for us, we take care of you if it goes wrong. Only exception: we give you a lot of money to buy out the rest of the contract plus incentives on top to free up a roster space if we think you're going to be out for the rest of the season or maybe beyond. And, even then, they end up paying extra because they know what they're doing might be sending a signal to the market hat they don't think your injuries can be recovered from, which night hurt your next contract negotiation. So it's rarely appealing for the player and thus expensive for the teams. So the cheaper option is to let the contract run and hope the player comes back, and if you have the option sign them to Injured list so you can bring in a replacement temporarily. David Clarke spoke *at length* about how well Alleghe treated him after he got injured and that he, indeed, one day had hoped to return to them to repay them for standing by him for the whole of the rest of the season when they knew it was unlikely he'd be fit again. And he was very grateful. So absolutely he'd recommend them on that account to other players if asked. If they'd canned him do you think any British player would ever risk signing for them again? Once a player is fired their income is gone. They're no longer an employee of the team so they'd lose treatment cover etc as well as wages Your basing your argument on the fact a player would get paid by an insurer. Who's insurer? Their own is the only option at that point. So from a loss of earnings personal policy? That's an expense very few who play on the EIHL could likely afford *or get*... As the chance of them claiming is so very, very high and the premiums so hard to establish on a person who's average contract length is 9 months each year at best. So the cost of it would be prohibitive even if they could get it. In the same way your standard travel insurance policy specifically doesn't cover winter sports (unless you pay extra) precisely because of the high risk of claims, loss of earnings cover from a office job, even a warehouse job versus a sports person are very different kettles of fish. And often only available if you're at the very, very top end. In my sporting career I took the precaution of having my own personal injury insurance that would pay out if I lost a finger playing, use of a leg or spent time in hospital or was permanently disabled etc etc, plus the various teams medical cover etc for surgeries etc etc. That personal injury insurance was the only way I could "cover" an injury that might end my career, but it certainly would not have accounted for loss of earnings. But could I get a personal loss of earnings cover in such a precarious job (from an insurers point of view)... ...Nope. So when an injury did ultimately end my career early I got paid some money for the time in hospital but that was pretty much it. And it was the team who covered my medical bills and made sure I wasn't bankrupted. Not just because it was part of my contract, but because I was injured "on the job" doing the thing they paid me to do. But, as always, jmho
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2021 12:35:24 GMT
This post has been removed due to forum etiquette rules.
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Post by blackandgold73 on Nov 4, 2021 13:29:28 GMT
Yes there is. As I said, I *had athletes personal injury insurance*, even tailored specifically for me, my circumstances and to the kind of injuries as well that I might get. As I said in my post. My point was that the premiums for athletes *loss of earnings* insurance normally puts it out of reach of most athletes except those making substantial sums. It's either an expense too far or uneconomic versus the sums involved for many athletes unless they're at the top level. You were referring to loss of earnings insurance. So I addressed that point in my point. And as I said I had athletes insurance of one type but that the premiums for the type you're referencing are often uneconomic for many, especially players at the start of their career like several of ours. I'm happy to debate any part of my post you take issue with. But since you dismiss the whole post (and poster) whilst perhaps not having taken in much of the contents I'm guessing "I can't help you here" is the response that would be tempting to take. But having read the posting manners thread and that not that being my style I'll say instead... ... I'll agree to disagree with you on this one But happy to debate the personal injury versus loss of income insurance quandary many athletes face if you'd rather. As always, jmho
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Nov 12, 2021 13:47:08 GMT
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Post by wgray on Nov 12, 2021 14:04:10 GMT
That’s disappointing to here, Massimo hasn’t had the chance to get going really, which is a shame.
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Dec 4, 2021 23:12:07 GMT
Just bump this one. We've not heard anything on Domingue or Lee since they were IR'd, as far as I can see?
Domingue in particular is a worry, obviously I have no medical expertise at all, but do we assume the wound he got did more damage than they let on? He's 9 games and counting. No idea what was even wrong with Lee.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Dec 5, 2021 0:16:04 GMT
Just bump this one. We've not heard anything on Domingue or Lee since they were IR'd, as far as I can see? Domingue in particular is a worry, obviously I have no medical expertise at all, but do we assume the wound he got did more damage than they let on? He's 9 games and counting. No idea what was even wrong with Lee. The injury to Domingue did look bad and when it was said that it was just a flesh wound I was very sceptical. The fact that we have a team that’s missing Lee is the most worrying thing of all.
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Post by sevcik on Dec 5, 2021 3:29:41 GMT
Just bump this one. We've not heard anything on Domingue or Lee since they were IR'd, as far as I can see? Domingue in particular is a worry, obviously I have no medical expertise at all, but do we assume the wound he got did more damage than they let on? He's 9 games and counting. No idea what was even wrong with Lee. The injury to Domingue did look bad and when it was said that it was just a flesh wound I was very sceptical. The fact that we have a team that’s missing Lee is the most worrying thing of all. A friend of a friend works in A & E. From what I was told when Domengue went back to hospital to get the wound checked about a week after being stitched up the wound was found to have become infected. Assuming this is accurate and true it would of course make his recovery time longer which in turn may explain the radio silence & lack of updates from Panthers HQ
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Dec 5, 2021 10:01:01 GMT
The injury to Domingue did look bad and when it was said that it was just a flesh wound I was very sceptical. The fact that we have a team that’s missing Lee is the most worrying thing of all. A friend of a friend works in A & E. From what I was told when Domengue went back to hospital to get the wound checked about a week after being stitched up the wound was found to have become infected. Assuming this is accurate and true it would of course make his recovery time longer which in turn may explain the radio silence & lack of updates from Panthers HQ It would explain longer recovery time but it doesn’t explain Panthers silence and lack of updates.
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Post by spik on Dec 5, 2021 17:29:21 GMT
A tough one as to if or what can be said. Patient confidentiality a first thought guys but the club could say something which is better than nothing.
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Post by bobness on Dec 6, 2021 11:09:22 GMT
I spied a player coming out of the arena last week on crutches in a plastic "boot". I assume that was Domingue. Assuming so, he's not back any time soon. As said, the silence on Lee is deafening too. He's now missed 13 games, Domingue 9.
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Post by blackandgold73 on Jan 27, 2022 11:47:05 GMT
While the silence on Lee remains deafening some good and bad news has come out... Carozza will return this weekend. But Dom is set for "a spell on the sidelines" again www.panthers.co.uk/home/220126-carozza
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jan 27, 2022 12:08:37 GMT
Let's hope this return from injury goes better than the last one then.
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Post by Yotes on Jan 27, 2022 12:15:51 GMT
As an aside, presumably we have to make a decision on Thow now? Have they announced that?
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Post by blackandgold73 on Jan 27, 2022 12:36:25 GMT
Let's hope this return from injury goes better than the last one then. Fingers crossed. And that he starts scoring like he did in the AlpsHL!
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Post by blackandgold73 on Jan 27, 2022 12:39:07 GMT
As an aside, presumably we have to make a decision on Thow now? Have they announced that? An interesting point. Nothing that I've seen on the OS.
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Post by spik on Jan 27, 2022 13:11:35 GMT
As an aside, presumably we have to make a decision on Thow now? Have they announced that? An interesting point. Nothing that I've seen on the OS. Probably because they are so unsure of Kevin. Week to week, then tried him and bang, back on the 'side-lines'.
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