Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
Posts: 10,995
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Post by Shaggy on Apr 10, 2016 10:05:45 GMT
Missing the point shaggy and I suspect intentionally If I am, then I'm far from the only one... The point that you - and others that hold similar views to yourself - constantly miss is that you are operating under a set of assumptions that you have absolutely no way of proving... but you defend them to the death, regardless of what evidence is put in front of you. Assumptions frequently based upon personal dislikes, even prejudice, rather than facts. First you have the somewhat egocentric assumption that because we are the biggest/richest team in the league we should be able to buy our way to the title. It seems that some people forget that this is a competition played on ice, not on paper (even a balance sheet). It appears to pass some people by that by its very nature, a COMPETITION is not decided in advance, and all of the 'advantages' in the world are no guarantee of winning. Comparisons have often been made with the football Premier League... so how come Leicester City are doing so well with a fraction of the expenditure? And let's not forget... all of those other teams want to win just as much as we do. (For those who seem to think that our lot don't want to win... if that were the case, then surely we'd lose every game? You can't have it both ways...). I know all the BS about "if you don't succeed it's because you didn't try hard enough" - trust me, I work in sales, I hear that kind of crap all the time. Real life isn't like that... it's very rarely clearly black or white. But the really REALLY stupid assumption is that GM/NB/CN etc don't care about the league title. An assumption based on what - that they haven't been ranting and raving about it every minute? (why bother? - you guys do it for them! ). They are supposed to promote the club, after all... like it or not selling tickets is important, and you're much less likely to attract people if you're constantly moaning and groaning. "Who won the league? Oh who cares, look at the profit" "Just goes to show Mr Blacks ambition as far as the Panthers are concerned" "Black is reluctant to make big hockey based decisions" "Seems that with the league win in 2013 the attitude of the club may have been 'well we've done it that's the monkey gone now we can relax' " "All you need to see in his statement regarding the league title challenge it's somewhere halfway down... it should be the first thing he mentions. Priorities all wrong from the get go !" "Head in cloud cuckoo land or brain washed by gm's bs" "That's unacceptable... but obviously ok with NB/GM" "black only cares about money" "the management don't care " (all of these quotes from this and a couple of other recent threads) So... you guys are all telepathic and know exactly what NB/GM/CN are thinking? Or have you got a webcam in the Panthers' dressing room, offices, etc? Or is this just from the inside of YOUR heads, not theirs? All of this is just assumptions... just interpretations of the facts, not actual facts themselves. Basically - you're guessing. That's all - guessing, nothing more. And yet you base an entire mindset on that guesswork? That seems just a little bit ridiculous, doesn't it? And let us not forget all of the times that this group of people repeatedly said "The Panthers will never win the league with Gary Moran/Neil Black/Corey Neilson in charge!". And then we did. I remember that summer... it's amazing how quiet those people were... almost invisible. I wonder why?
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Post by texpef on Apr 10, 2016 10:41:43 GMT
By all means shaggy please quote my guessing.. none of those quotes are mine and you are just making assumptions based on what your perceptions are...
For the record I truly believe as a businessman both GM and NB care very much about the bottom line and have this as their number one priority... This is not unrealistic as without a profit NB does not have a business. If the panthers don't win trophies the business doesn't go under but if he doesn't generate a profit it does. Given this ASSUMPTION it comes as no surprise that some fans think they don't care about a league title. FOR THE RECORD I don't believe this but I do believe that they are more interested in the bottom line and turning a profit as every businessman in every business throughout the world does. This has nothing to do with ranting and raving just pure common sense, you can see that right?
OK missing the point.. well I believe you said " Number of league titles won by Corey Neilson = 1 Number of league titles won by any Panthers coach since 1956 who isn't Corey Neilson = 0"
I attempted to explain why this had happened and that no other coach has been given the opportunities that CN has enjoyed, you have skirted over this completely in your eagerness to score points, yes its true per se that CN is the only coach to win the league at Panthers but given the teams and resources enjoyed and also the lack of real league title competition it should have been won a whole lot more. As you rightly pointed out there are other teams attempting to win but realistically the league has been won by what 4 clubs? Coventry (who as stated previously had a massive advantage over squad makeup when the EIHL was formed from the demise of the ISL AND BNL) Sheffield, Belfast and now us.. Hardly a competitive league title chase is it?
So please tell me, what are these false assumptions I am supposed to be operating under? the FACT that only 4 clubs have won the league title regardless of number of clubs taking part? The fact that apart from Coventry whose league success appears to have dried up now the arena clubs have overtaken them its the arena clubs that win the league i.e THOSE WITH THE LARGEST BUDGETS (and they say you cant buy success, just ask Sheffield fans if you cant buy success).
Wont give you the satisfaction of a reply to the stupid telepathic comment but as for football I think we both know that little about football that neither of us can suitably comment but what I will say is I will bet you now the big spending clubs will likely tear that squad to pieces when the transfer window opens in the summer and I bet Leics will not be able to keep hold of their superstars when money comes knocking, how is that not buying success? As with most things in life including sales, if you want the best you have to pay for it and that includes sportsmen therefore the most talented squads cost the most money, as Blasidell once said (paraphrasing) you cant win everything but if you have the best squad before they even set foot on the ice you will win a lot more than you loose...you can see that right? no wild assumption just cold logic.
Oh and lovely dig at the end.. yes it was a great summer we had just won the triple... doesn't get much better..
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,484
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Post by iginla on Apr 10, 2016 18:37:49 GMT
Of course you can buy success Shaggy,there have been lots of instances of it. It's been done in football by lots of clubs who were not in with a realistic chance until the rich owner came along. Chelsea did it when Abramovich arrived,so did Man City,even Blackburn Rovers managed it.
In hockey terms,the Steelers did it for years,then through the financially dodgy few years they struggled and now they're back.
The one thing that stands out for me is look at a coach like Mike Blaisdell,the guy a lot of people (not me) used to say was a great coach,but was he though ? At Panthers first time did he win much....No. At the big spending Steelers did he win much....Yes. Back to Panthers and did he win......No. So that tells me he only won when he coached a team that spent big money !
You could put Neilson or Thompson into five teams in the EIHL and they wouldn't win the league because they don't spend enough.
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Shorty
Paul Adey
Still here for Private Messages
Posts: 6,636
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Post by Shorty on Apr 10, 2016 19:50:26 GMT
This has got the potential to be the longest, most repetitive and boring thread in Cage history. Heaven knows what it will look like come October when we have a bit of an indication as to how we might do.
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Post by thebestpanthers on Apr 10, 2016 21:45:13 GMT
I hope we sign another player soon, just so we can change the subject. - It's going to be a long, longggggggggggggggggggggggggg, summer
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,484
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Post by iginla on Apr 10, 2016 22:04:19 GMT
Wow and they complained this thread was getting repetitive and boring.
Judging by the last two posts......they were right !
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Post by Bagheera on Apr 10, 2016 22:12:13 GMT
Makes me happier to have Corey when the Clan announce Finnerty back again.
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Post by pantherdman on Apr 11, 2016 5:17:20 GMT
Makes me happier to have Corey when the Clan announce Finnerty back again. Frightening that the clans last few seasons have been deemed acceptable by mr black. Finnerty is a terrible coach.
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Ian
Matt Myers
Posts: 1,702
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Post by Ian on Apr 11, 2016 9:37:15 GMT
Makes me happier to have Corey when the Clan announce Finnerty back again. Absolutely. I was genuinely concerned that if Corey left and we again struggled to identify replacements we would end up with Finnerty in Nottingham. And that is a scary prospect indeed. While I've never been a big fan of Corey and have stated that in good times and bad, I am not surprised that he has a new deal and, taking a wider view, not as disappointed as I thought I would be. Whatever you think of Corey, it's hard to ditch a coach after a two-trophy season, even if what many feel is the biggest prize is the one that eluded us. Two year deals for players and coaches suggest we are aiming for more stability to build on our achievements, not starting from square one every time, and that has to be a good thing. Regardless of whether or not I think other coaches could have matched or bettered his trophy haul with the resources he's been given, Corey has been our coach through an unprecedented period of success and I would sooner see him continue in the role than (a) start from scratch with a rookie (player) coach; or (b) struggle to find an upgrade and end up with either a panic signing or one of the usual suspects. Ultimately, I want to see Panthers win trophies and we have more chance of doing it with Corey in charge than in either of the two scenarios I mentioned. Hopefully an early coaching appointment can mean retention of a solid core and thorough recruitment for the next campaign.
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Post by malsbloke on Apr 11, 2016 13:00:46 GMT
Haters got to hate . Glad to have Corey back . END .
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Dan
Forum Admin
Boss
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Post by Dan on Apr 11, 2016 13:13:25 GMT
Well i'm not thrilled,but i'm prepared to give it a shot,but it's two years to get a league title or it just has to be goodbye. Cups and play off titles are fine,but in basically a five team league our record of league title challenges is awful. I just hope that previous mistakes are corrected and that starts with a full quota of imports from the start and a rock solid defence first. I agree. Corey is very much a cup coach and has had huge success when the chips are down but i'm not sure he's a coach that can be relied upon to put together a title-winning squad more than once a decade. It's great being a team that pulls through in the big games, but he delivers teams that far too frequently choke the smaller ones. Hopefully he builds on this again, one more league title would change the entire view of his time here. A high price to pay for a CC & Playoff trophies, the dross he dished up in the league was appalling, no ST for me, pick & choose my games or should that be pick & mix, and going to see the same opposition 5 or 6 times a season X 3 clubs that not for me. But...this is a little harsh. We've still now won more than half of the available trophies in the last 4/5 years. This strikes me as a little entitled, and I actually agree on the title challenge issue.
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Mozzy
Pat Casey
Cracking
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Post by Mozzy on Apr 11, 2016 17:12:29 GMT
Personally, from an outsiders perspective, I think a 2 year deal is good one. It gives Corey the time to continue to build on what he has now. At times last season you were very good, as you proved in the playoffs. It doesn't need wholesale changes, just tweaking. I believe you will challenge more over the next two years. Just in reference to Shaggy's post about Leicester City, this season is very much a one off in football (you could say like your league winning year ). It is usually the much bigger spending teams that are winning the league, I'd be surprised if Leicester is repeated anytime in the next 10 to 15 years. It is also very true that coaches like Thommo, Corey, Blaisdell, Doug etc have been successfull at big spending clubs. Thommo wouldn't have won the league this year at Dundee, they ultimately don't have the budget for the long haul. Your league record really is very poor in comparison to spend but Corey deserves this contract for his other trophies imo. Although league should be the big priority now.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,484
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Post by iginla on Apr 11, 2016 19:28:56 GMT
A Personally, from an outsiders perspective, I think a 2 year deal is good one. It gives Corey the time to continue to build on what he has now. At times last season you were very good, as you proved in the playoffs. It doesn't need wholesale changes, just tweaking. I believe you will challenge more over the next two years. Just in reference to Shaggy's post about Leicester City, this season is very much a one off in football (you could say like your league winning year ). It is usually the much bigger spending teams that are winning the league, I'd be surprised if Leicester is repeated anytime in the next 10 to 15 years. It is also very true that coaches like Thommo, Corey, Blaisdell, Doug etc have been successfull at big spending clubs. Thommo wouldn't have won the league this year at Dundee, they ultimately don't have the budget for the long haul. Your league record really is very poor in comparison to spend but Corey deserves this contract for his other trophies imo. Although league should be the big priority now. You're spot on Mozzy. I think the biggest problem with Corey and the league title is that he doesn't think it's his job to motivate his players. Now in a cup or play off semi or final they obviously don't need motivating,any player will get motivated himself for that. But on a Wednesday night in Fife or a Sunday in Manchester after a big Steelers game the night before,then some of them,especially some of the fancy dans that Panthers sign,most probably will need some extra motivation to get going. I look at Thommo and he's up and down the bench constantly,in his players ears every game,then I look at Corey and he's usually standing there with his hands in his pockets,saying very little and showing no emotion whatsoever. He will then after we lost the game tell us,we didn't move our feet and we didn't execute at a high level........I wonder why that was !!!!!
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Post by dusseldorf on Apr 11, 2016 22:40:43 GMT
anyone know what is happening with Rick Strachen?
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Penaltybox
Jade Galbraith
Be Realistic, with your expectations
Posts: 176
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Post by Penaltybox on Apr 17, 2016 20:53:51 GMT
Of course you can buy success Shaggy,there have been lots of instances of it. It's been done in football by lots of clubs who were not in with a realistic chance until the rich owner came along. Chelsea did it when Abramovich arrived,so did Man City,even Blackburn Rovers managed it. Chelsea have done what this year with all this wealth? Man city won't win the league with all this money, could win a cup. Blackburn hmm where are they? Point is money does not guarantee long term success
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,484
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Post by iginla on Apr 17, 2016 21:07:26 GMT
Of course you can buy success Shaggy,there have been lots of instances of it. It's been done in football by lots of clubs who were not in with a realistic chance until the rich owner came along. Chelsea did it when Abramovich arrived,so did Man City,even Blackburn Rovers managed it. Chelsea have done what this year with all this wealth? Man city won't win the league with all this money, could win a cup. Blackburn hmm where are they? Point is money does not guarantee long term success Those teams i mentioned all did it when the new rich owner came along,that's the difference. There are now lots of teams with plenty of money,so money doesn't talk in football like it used to....but in the EIHL nobody could compete with Panthers if we wanted to buy the title. The difference is,we won't spend what we could. Nice of you to pick up on just the one point in my earlier post by the way. How about you try explaining the rest of my post.....not an easy one to explain that !
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Post by thebestpanthers on Apr 17, 2016 21:22:42 GMT
Thought this thread was about Cory Neilson - seems to be going down the usual line - some people just seem as though they want to keep labouring their points on every thread, irrespective if it is relevant to the thread - bet the "copy-paste" button is nearly worn out - any-one for cricket?
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Penaltybox
Jade Galbraith
Be Realistic, with your expectations
Posts: 176
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Post by Penaltybox on Apr 18, 2016 21:41:35 GMT
Chelsea have done what this year with all this wealth? Man city won't win the league with all this money, could win a cup. Blackburn hmm where are they? Point is money does not guarantee long term success Those teams i mentioned all did it when the new rich owner came along,that's the difference. There are now lots of teams with plenty of money,so money doesn't talk in football like it used to....but in the EIHL nobody could compete with Panthers if we wanted to buy the title. The difference is,we won't spend what we could. Nice of you to pick up on just the one point in my earlier post by the way. How about you try explaining the rest of my post.....not an easy one to explain that ! Explain what? Nothing new has been bought to the table. Every year only one team can win the league. 9 other teams will be disappointed. Money does earn you the right to win anything, it helps, but it's not the only thing you need.
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