Neil Black good or bad

[pantherman66]

Inevitably whenever there is a Panthers v Clan match up, the usual 'conflict of interest' comments surface, regarding Neil Black. I was just wondering whether people think NB has been good or bad for the game of Ice Hockey in this country overall.

[Yotes]

Good, overall. It's not ideal, but a lot about ice hockey over here isn't ideal, and moneybags owners aren't exactly forming a queue.

[jd]

Good!

[PantherB]

If you look at it from a stature/popularity point of view, he's done very well for Panthers, Clan and British Hockey. He's taken Panthers from financial uncertainty to being healthily in the Green and making a good profit each season. With Clan, he's bought the league a whole new organisation and made them into a top team with a bright future so he's raised the profile of hockey in Scotland, a big enough budget to sign a good quality team and a team capable of bringing in fans, like Panthers, we've got a good budget, we get good quality players, a big name every so often and it brings fans in and makes watching Panthers/Clan exciting.

The only negatives I can mention really is his 'You've got to be there to see it' kind of attitude, no webcasts, which as we've seen with every other team, are a great benefit in bring in a steady stream of money on match nights, it's people from all over the country, and world who watch the streams and Panthers/Clan not having them isn't good, we've got Players' family & friends wanting to watch them play but only being able to if we're away from home or they actually fly over here.

I'd like him to maybe question Moran's future or how the club goes about publicity and overall fan entertainment, we seem to rely purely on the action on the ice, very little put into making the arena seem like the home of the Panthers, 1 banner marking retired numbers, fair enough but why can't we celebrate our success over the last few years with banners from the rafters? Maybe have more posters outside the arena too, hang them on lampposts, a simple player in action photo with Panthers and the weblink on would look great and make a point that this (the arena) is the home of one of the best ice hockey teams in the country. I'd like to have said about him being a bit more ambitious but he has done a very good job with British hockey as a whole and is still (I believe) pursuing a potential London based team.

[The Flying Shirt]

I used to think he was good but now I have my doubts.

[cooperphil156]

Just one point - Braehead was Jamie Blacks baby - he described it as an idea which came out of a post dinner party discussion. Again regarding Neil Black - he has kept Panthers budget in line with other clubs. Its then up to the coach to get the players in and coach on a level playing field. If Panthers were to spend more and wind up winning all the time - we wouldn't have a league. Like others of course I find the efforts so far are disappointing and starting to follow a similar path to last season. However I feel the day of reckoning at the end of the season will sort things out. The owners are Aladdin and Neil Black is the chairman. Who knows who is involved? Probably Rodger Black and the likes of Jamie and Freddie.

[The Flying Shirt]

Jan 19, 2016 17:03:14 GMT cooperphil156 said:

Just one point - Braehead was Jamie Blacks baby - he described it as an idea which came out of a post dinner party discussion. Again regarding Neil Black - he has kept Panthers budget in line with other clubs. Its then up to the coach to get the players in and coach on a level playing field. If Panthers were to spend more and wind up winning all the time - we wouldn't have a league. Like others of course I find the efforts so far are disappointing and starting to follow a similar path to last season. However I feel the day of reckoning at the end of the season will sort things out. The owners are Aladdin and Neil Black is the chairman. Who knows who is involved? Probably Rodger Black and the likes of Jamie and Freddie.

Every sport has some teams spending more than others but for the life of me I can't think or another single sport ever where a team with possible the most solid fan base implodes mid season every year bar one with boring regularity.

[cooperphil156]

Not every sport is in a position where the very existence of the league and some of the clubs are as precarious as is the case with ice hockey. Looking at this seasons roster (apart from four me a missing D man) would you by and large settle for it?

[The Flying Shirt]

Jan 19, 2016 17:39:19 GMT cooperphil156 said:

Not every sport is in a position where the very existence of the league and some of the clubs are as precarious as is the case with ice hockey. Looking at this seasons roster (apart from four me a missing D man) would you by and large settle for it?

With a full quota of imports yes. I would more than settle for it, I would celebrate it.

[The Flying Shirt]

Jan 19, 2016 17:39:19 GMT cooperphil156 said:

Not every sport is in a position where the very existence of the league and some of the clubs are as precarious as is the case with ice hockey.

Precarious as in who's fault do you mean? We should dumb down our spending for the likes of the former team in Hull and Edinburgh? If that's the case then it really isn't sport at all as I don't see Sheffield or Cardiff being so concerned? Or have we all been fooled into thinking like this while we all come along and fill the NIC and the money and just give our thanks on the way out that we have been fortunate to see the EIHL last another week? The league is only as precarious as the least spending and least viable teams. I am not interested in musical chairs when we hope we are the last team standing. I am a Panther supporter and I want the Panthers to put in the same effort as the fans who want to see their team win. We get good crowds, we take more away supporters away EVERY WEEK than any other team ever and I personally don't do that because I can drive home happy in the fact that we are not too much better than the lower clubs.

[iginla]

In general for the sport of British ice hockey he's been good,but for Panthers the best phrase I can think of is....."he does some but not nearly enough".

However,he really needs to get far more visible to the fans and show some passion for the club.
When was the last time you saw an interview with him,or even an article by him on anything.....probably twice in the last five years ?

That is not good enough,fans want to see the guy,they want to know things,want to know that the owner cares as much as they do,sometimes they want some answers,or to see action taken.
We as Panthers fans don't get any of that,all we get is what Morans "spokeswoman" wants to tell us and that in general,is not a lot !!!!!!

[pantherdman]

Watch the Robert Kraft doc on sky sports on demand.
It will blow your mind how great an owner can be.
Also brought the patriots for around 170 million, now valued at 3.5 billion by winning. fans and players absolutely adore him.

[Mozzy]

I think Neil Black has been great for you guys. Just think where you have come from in his time owning the club. You've gone from also rans, always being the bridesmaids to us, to a team that is expected to compete for the league every year. Yes there are things with the team you haven't liked but I bet much of that is down to the coach at the time anyway.

There are things he could do better. He could be more accessible to fans, rather than it always being Moran. You can say a lot of things about Two Point Tony but he's available at every game, he does interviews (one released today) and he is less interested in profit and more interested in making the club more successful.

I think he's done well so far but either him or Moran could learn from some of the stuff other clubs are doing. From highlights packages, interviews, webcasts, social media to the much maligned 50/50 draw. It all helps and although he has done well, it could be so much better.

[Ian]

Let's start with the Panthers.

In the summer of 1996 when our club was days away from going belly up, he was a saviour. And for that we should all be eternally grateful. Since then, the finances have been managed well and there have been no threats of bankruptcy or money struggles of any kind. We have one of the most stable clubs seen in modern British hockey and that is at least partly down to Neil Black's efforts. He has generally supported coaches with a competitive playing budget. So on the financial side I can't find much to fault him on, and as a business owner myself I don't begrudge him banking a tidy profit on the club's operations.

There are plenty of calls for him to be more involved, make more public appearances and statements, interact more with fans etc. Personally I don't think this is valid criticism of Neil Black - those things are the job of the general manager. If people think our GM doesn't do those things well enough, it doesn't mean Neil Black should do them instead. What he needs to do is scrutinise the GM's actions more closely and make sure the way the job is being done is appropriate for an EIHL GM in 2016. I think the regular profits have caused him to somewhat take his eye off the ball in terms of the day-to-day operations and this has enabled the GM to achieve a position that goes way beyond the normal definition of his job title. I don't want to see Neil Black have more day-to-day involvement necessarily, just to make sure that the people (plural, not everything in the hands of one person) have clearly defined roles and are performing them effectively. From top down, there needs to be a recognition that the world has changed since he first took the club over and money through the tills does not tell the whole story if you are alienating your long-term customers.

In a wider context...
The money and effort he has put into creating a sustainable and financially responsible league structure is clear I would say. From keeping struggling sides afloat (Newcastle in the early years among others) to wage caps to changing league formats, he has played a big role. I am concerned with multiple club ownership however. Not so much Braehead now as the Clan have a successful business that can sustain itself without requiring him to prop them up from elsewhere in his portfolio. The London thing concerns me greatly. Nobody has so far managed to make a success of running a pro team in the capital and I can see the latest effort being a major financial drain on whoever is involved. Also, certainly in terms of the league's public face he seems to be less prominent than in the past. Maybe he is just as influential behind the scenes but that's not the impression you get. I can't help but wonder whether (just as with the Panthers' organisational structure and management methods) he has been left behind or overtaken by more progressive owners and managers.

Overall, positive for Panthers and the league. But with reservations and the need for some hands-on action particularly at our own club's level.

[The Flying Shirt]

Jan 20, 2016 9:38:54 GMT Ian said:

Let's start with the Panthers.

In the summer of 1996 when our club was days away from going belly up, he was a saviour. And for that we should all be eternally grateful. Since then, the finances have been managed well and there have been no threats of bankruptcy or money struggles of any kind. We have one of the most stable clubs seen in modern British hockey and that is at least partly down to Neil Black's efforts. He has generally supported coaches with a competitive playing budget. So on the financial side I can't find much to fault him on, and as a business owner myself I don't begrudge him banking a tidy profit on the club's operations.

There are plenty of calls for him to be more involved, make more public appearances and statements, interact more with fans etc. Personally I don't think this is valid criticism of Neil Black - those things are the job of the general manager. If people think our GM doesn't do those things well enough, it doesn't mean Neil Black should do them instead. What he needs to do is scrutinise the GM's actions more closely and make sure the way the job is being done is appropriate for an EIHL GM in 2016. I think the regular profits have caused him to somewhat take his eye off the ball in terms of the day-to-day operations and this has enabled the GM to achieve a position that goes way beyond the normal definition of his job title. I don't want to see Neil Black have more day-to-day involvement necessarily, just to make sure that the people (plural, not everything in the hands of one person) have clearly defined roles and are performing them effectively. From top down, there needs to be a recognition that the world has changed since he first took the club over and money through the tills does not tell the whole story if you are alienating your long-term customers.

In a wider context...
The money and effort he has put into creating a sustainable and financially responsible league structure is clear I would say. From keeping struggling sides afloat (Newcastle in the early years among others) to wage caps to changing league formats, he has played a big role. I am concerned with multiple club ownership however. Not so much Braehead now as the Clan have a successful business that can sustain itself without requiring him to prop them up from elsewhere in his portfolio. The London thing concerns me greatly. Nobody has so far managed to make a success of running a pro team in the capital and I can see the latest effort being a major financial drain on whoever is involved. Also, certainly in terms of the league's public face he seems to be less prominent than in the past. Maybe he is just as influential behind the scenes but that's not the impression you get. I can't help but wonder whether (just as with the Panthers' organisational structure and management methods) he has been left behind or overtaken by more progressive owners and managers.

Overall, positive for Panthers and the league. But with reservations and the need for some hands-on action particularly at our own club's level.

As a business owner myself I would know all about GM's activities and be happy with them (as any business owner would) or he would have been moved in a heart beat. When my employees fail it's my fault and when my magagers fail it's my fault too. It's a very old fashioned set up but for someone that has several business interests you need to leave control with those that are able with minimum fuss and maximum profit and up to this point this is obviously what is happening here.

[Ian]

Jan 20, 2016 9:54:50 GMT The Flying Shirt said:

As a business owner myself I would know all about GM's activities and be happy with them (as any business owner would) or he would have been moved in a heart beat. When my employees fail it's my fault and when my magagers fail it's my fault too. It's a very old fashioned set up but for someone that has several business interests you need to leave control with those that are able with minimum fuss and maximum profit and up to this point this is obviously what is happening here.

Oh, I totally agree. But even within that structure, those managers' performance and actions have to be scrutinised. I would want to know not just how much money was being made but where from, the customer profile and the sustainability of the current income streams. And it's a poorly run organisation in any industry that doesn't look what others in the market are doing and learn lessons from it.

[The Flying Shirt]

Jan 20, 2016 10:03:04 GMT Ian said:

Jan 20, 2016 9:54:50 GMT The Flying Shirt said:

As a business owner myself I would know all about GM's activities and be happy with them (as any business owner would) or he would have been moved in a heart beat. When my employees fail it's my fault and when my magagers fail it's my fault too. It's a very old fashioned set up but for someone that has several business interests you need to leave control with those that are able with minimum fuss and maximum profit and up to this point this is obviously what is happening here.

Oh, I totally agree. But even within that structure, those managers' performance and actions have to be scrutinised. I would want to know not just how much money was being made but where from, the customer profile and the sustainability of the current income streams. And it's a poorly run organisation in any industry that doesn't look what others in the market are doing and learn lessons from it.

Pretty sure that would be the case but the problem with being first and coming from a long way back it's very easy to fall into the trap of thinking that you know best. Just look at the famous names on the high street that have all gone over the last few years. They all thought they knew best too.

[iginla]

I'm a business owner too,but if I kept hearing or reading time and time again that so many people or my customers couldn't stand my general manager,I would be asking some serious questions as to why not.
I would also be thinking,if we are doing well financially with a guy people can't stand,how much better "could we be doing" with a different guy that they did like !

[The Flying Shirt]

Jan 20, 2016 13:40:25 GMT iginla said:

I'm a business owner too,but if I kept hearing or reading time and time again that so many people or my customers couldn't stand my general manager,I would be asking some serious questions as to why not.
I would also be thinking,if we are doing well financially with a guy people can't stand,how much better "could we be doing" with a different guy that they did like !

Bingo

[pantherjack]

Jan 20, 2016 13:40:25 GMT iginla said:

I'm a business owner too,but if I kept hearing or reading time and time again that so many people or my customers couldn't stand my general manager,I would be asking some serious questions as to why not.
I would also be thinking,if we are doing well financially with a guy people can't stand,how much better "could we be doing" with a different guy that they did like !

Agreed. I also think that in the Panthers scenario, and I don't say this lightly, it was always going to be a pretty sure-fire bet for whoever bought the Panthers if they had a little business knowledge.

By that I mean, it is no coincidence that Neil Black bought the club when the new arena was at the planning stage. An ever growing student base, a loyal sporting city with untapped markets, plus an existing club would have all been pound signs to the person with a bit of money to start off. It was of course a gamble of sorts, but nothing like some may imagine.

If he did have any reservations I imagine they were soon put at ease with when the arena opened. That coupled with the fact that year on year we seem to have the worst match night experience in the league, and if you don't agree with that, then definitely for any arena team, plus terrible off-ice engagement compared to other teams. Yet... year on year season ticket numbers go up we're told, attendance go up, shirt sales go up etc., and this is all with the above going on. Our fans are so loyal. We turn out year on year regardless, whilst knowing that anyone with the slightest knowledge of using a calculator can work out that money is flowing away from the club.

So from Mr Black's point of view he can sit back and, unless he or his staff/family never read anything online, he know's large parts of the vocal fanbase are not happy with the goings on at the club. He would have known about this for years now, yet he does nothing.

So yes, I agree that we should be very grateful for saving the club and then allow him to have a few years of making very good money for his efforts. But now, in 2016 can he really not stretch to an extra (if we spend anything at all) £500 a game to give us a match night experience that likes that I see in Belfast, Sheffield and beyond. £500 can go a long way to doing giveaways, crowd engagement, entertainment etc. Done regular and of course costs go down.

But sadly the above doesn't seem possible. I see three possible reasons for it, but I go for no.3!

1. We can't afford it and the club barely makes any surplus money for a match night budget.
2. The club makes lots of money but Mr Black would rather not give a small budget for such entertainment.
3. The club makes lots of money but it's syphoned out to fund Braehead etc. and doesn't leave anything for Panthers.

I'm not sure of Mr Blacks intentions regarding the league. You could argue that he's doing an admirable job in trying to grow the league to enrich the sport and give it sustainability. I would agree with that if he didn't own 2 league teams, potentially a third and represent/own the league himself. It seems clear that he's out to make money, and rightly so, but fans should stop expecting things to improve whilst he's in ownership. I personally wouldn't want another owner, currently I prefer the stability over the other problems, so I'm one of the muppets who continues to pay and moan, and Mr Black knows it.

The easy rule to apply with ice hockey in the UK is that it's a business first and a business second. Entertainment comes after and sport is a long way off in the distance.

[pantherdman]

If black has any feeling for the club he needs to show it and get involved.