Any Chance We Will Be At Full Strength?

[PantherG]

The matches against Belfast this weekend are must win and I was wondering if we will be at full strength. It's going to be challenging enough at full strength but minus 2 is going to put us at a real disadvantage.

Any news?

[Dan]

In what definition of the word are these games must-win?!?

[lee]

2 losses to Belfast will put our league / conference challenge at an instant disadvantage, same as 2 losses later on in the season would...

i guess he meant in that sense...


i hope we are at full strength as i do feel even though these games are early.. we must win or split games with Belfast this year to stand a chance.

[5+game]

Sept 11, 2012 0:15:58 GMT Dan said:

In what definition of the word are these games must-win?!?

If you want to win the league all home games are must wins.

[texpef]

generally 90% home wins and 75% away ones but it depends on the opposition, giving a 4 point home advantage to one of our main competitors makes it very difficult to then make that up..

[ted logan]

Benedict hopeful of being in for this weekend apparently according to the OS; can't believe it's taken this long for a 'returnee' to get his Visa sorted.

Not read anything about Tuma recently though?

[PantherG]

I believe the games against Belfast, along with Sheffield, are must win, especially at home. Two losses this weekend will certainly put us on the back foot and hand Belfast a strong advantage early on in the title race, we need to build momentum early on. It would be a real disappointment if we looked back at the of the season and pinpointed these two games as the reason for another missed opportunnity.

[tessier26]

Sept 11, 2012 17:30:53 GMT PantherG said:

I believe the games against Belfast, along with Sheffield, are must win, especially at home. Two losses this weekend will certainly put us on the back foot and hand Belfast a strong advantage early on in the title race, we need to build momentum early on. It would be a real disappointment if we looked back at the of the season and pinpointed these two games as the reason for another missed opportunnity.

Just my opinion as stated in other threads but as much as Corey and the boys would love to win the league, i don't believe the club management are that bothered, the crowds will still pay their money week in, week out. Thats Neil Black happy.

[PantherG]

Sept 12, 2012 9:00:07 GMT tessier26 said:

Sept 11, 2012 17:30:53 GMT PantherG said:

I believe the games against Belfast, along with Sheffield, are must win, especially at home. Two losses this weekend will certainly put us on the back foot and hand Belfast a strong advantage early on in the title race, we need to build momentum early on. It would be a real disappointment if we looked back at the of the season and pinpointed these two games as the reason for another missed opportunnity.

Just my opinion as stated in other threads but as much as Corey and the boys would love to win the league, i don't believe the club management are that bothered, the crowds will still pay their money week in, week out. Thats Neil Black happy.

In my humble opinion I don't believe that. I know the he, Neil Black, takes much flack, however, he stepped in and saved this club, turning it into a very successful and stable organisation. Many teams around the UK are incredibly envious of what we have here and I wish 'some' people were not so cynical and could see that, appreciate what we have and give some deserved credit for where he has taken the Panthers.

[tessier26]

Sept 12, 2012 19:39:21 GMT PantherG said:

Sept 12, 2012 9:00:07 GMT tessier26 said:

Just my opinion as stated in other threads but as much as Corey and the boys would love to win the league, i don't believe the club management are that bothered, the crowds will still pay their money week in, week out. Thats Neil Black happy.

In my humble opinion I don't believe that. I know the he, Neil Black, takes much flack, however, he stepped in and saved this club, turning it into a very successful and stable organisation. Many teams around the UK are incredibly envious of what we have here and I wish 'some' people were not so cynical and could see that, appreciate what we have and give some deserved credit for where he has taken the Panthers.

I understand what your saying, but he has the power and financial resources to recruit top players and yet still we go for a few unknowns and previous season injured players, in other words cheaper options. Sure we have your Lings and Galivans but if we had a whole team of quality with determination we would have to win the league sooner or later. Black has given us a stable club, one that produces a stable profit. I would have thought with us being the supposed richest and best supported club in the league we could splash the cash for atleast 1 season (as Sheffield have done most seasons ) and really go for the league. Im sure Black has the money and clout to do that.

[Pies]

Benny will be here

www.panthers.co.uk/content/benny-has-his-passport-back?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[dreadface]

Sept 12, 2012 19:55:17 GMT tessier26 said:

Sept 12, 2012 19:39:21 GMT PantherG said:

In my humble opinion I don't believe that. I know the he, Neil Black, takes much flack, however, he stepped in and saved this club, turning it into a very successful and stable organisation. Many teams around the UK are incredibly envious of what we have here and I wish 'some' people were not so cynical and could see that, appreciate what we have and give some deserved credit for where he has taken the Panthers.

I understand what your saying, but he has the power and financial resources to recruit top players and yet still we go for a few unknowns and previous season injured players, in other words cheaper options. Sure we have your Lings and Galivans but if we had a whole team of quality with determination we would have to win the league sooner or later. Black has given us a stable club, one that produces a stable profit. I would have thought with us being the supposed richest and best supported club in the league we could splash the cash for atleast 1 season (as Sheffield have done most seasons ) and really go for the league. Im sure Black has the money and clout to do that.

And if he did this then fans would expect it year in year out, which would most likely lead to Panthers over reaching financially or losing supporters when the club cant supply. Nobody on this forum knows the Panthers budget or anyone else's in the league.

[tessier26]

Sept 13, 2012 10:20:10 GMT dreadface said:

Sept 12, 2012 19:55:17 GMT tessier26 said:

I understand what your saying, but he has the power and financial resources to recruit top players and yet still we go for a few unknowns and previous season injured players, in other words cheaper options. Sure we have your Lings and Galivans but if we had a whole team of quality with determination we would have to win the league sooner or later. Black has given us a stable club, one that produces a stable profit. I would have thought with us being the supposed richest and best supported club in the league we could splash the cash for atleast 1 season (as Sheffield have done most seasons ) and really go for the league. Im sure Black has the money and clout to do that.

And if he did this then fans would expect it year in year out, which would most likely lead to Panthers over reaching financially or losing supporters when the club cant supply. Nobody on this forum knows the Panthers budget or anyone else's in the league.

If that were the case, they would have to put up with not winning it year in year out! We don't know team budgets but its common knowledge that Panthers are the richest team in the league. Your telling me that if were capable of challenging for and winning the league 1 season you would'nt want that? Its clear to anyone who really takes a proper look at this club what its priorities are and its not winning the league for the fans.

[Yotes]

Sept 13, 2012 10:20:10 GMT dreadface said:

Nobody on this forum knows the Panthers budget

That's the key point, it's all a guess. Black could be giving Neilson a very healthy budget, who he spends it on is not up to Neil Black. My guess would be that that's exactly what happens.

I firmly believe in recent seasons we've had the players to win the league, I don't see any sense in the notion that the only way for us to achieve that is to blow everyone else out of the water.

Anyway, glad Benedict will finally be here, just the 4 games wages to be docked

[NickThePanther44]

Now I'm far from a happy clapper chocolate thrower but I refuse to criticise Neil Black. There is nobody who has done more to support this team and even the league in the modern era imo.

Of course we could blow the league away, that's not up for debate. We were charging much lower entrance prices, had lower attendances, smaller main sponsorship package and paying considerably more on wages in the ISL. With our current setup I'd have a guess that we could probably double our wage bill and still make a profit. The question is, should we? I personally don't think we should. Spending 'what we can afford' would imo but the league structure under increased strain and I personally don't want that.

Spending wars have proved to be very bad for this sport and many others too, if we up our spending I can only assume others would do the same and poof, back to 2003 and the collapse of yet another league. I don't want that, I remember the summer of 03 and not knowing if we'd have a league to play in, that was no fun at all. It amazes me how many fans have only seen EIHL hockey and therefore only the 'good times', be careful what you wish for guys.

[Shaggy]

Sept 13, 2012 14:06:19 GMT tessier26 said:

We don't know team budgets but its common knowledge that Panthers are the richest team in the league.

No, it's common knowledge* that the Panthers have the largest income... as in, the largest fanbase and therefore the largest revenue. Also good income from sponsorship etc.
That doesn't necessarily mean that the Panthers are the richest team - not if another ownership is prepared to put more of their own money into the team and raise their spending budget that way. There have been plenty of suspicions that Coventry did exactly that a few years ago, and I've also heard it said that's exactly what the current Belfast ownership have been doing.
Now we don't know for sure either way on that score... but it's certainly feasible.


* which is often another way of saying "everyone knows", which is a frequent excuse for not thinking about something oneself and just parroting what has been heard from others. It might be true... but not for certain.

Your telling me that if were capable of challenging for and winning the league 1 season you would'nt want that?

Not if it meant the club folding (worst case) or the budget being slashed for the next few years to compensate.
Question - when you go to watch the Panthers all season, is your entire purpose to see them win the league? Or to watch lots of hockey games?
Personally I intend to carry on watching this sport and this team for as long as I can manage... another, what - 40+ years? Massively overspending one year just to win the league seems a little pitiful compared to that.

Its clear to anyone who really takes a proper look at this club what its priorities are and its not winning the league for the fans.

You seem to be devoted to the concept of 'if we want it enough we will get it'. I don't know if you've noticed this, but there are a few other organisations involved who would also want the same thing...?
It's a fallacy to assume that just because the Panthers haven't won the league it means that they don't want it (enough or at all), or - to put it another way - it's a fallacy to assume that 'if we don't win it that means we didn't try hard enough'.
Real life simply isn't like that...

[Shaggy]

Sept 13, 2012 15:29:03 GMT NickThePanther44 said:

Now I'm far from a happy clapper chocolate thrower but I refuse to criticise Neil Black. There is nobody who has done more to support this team and even the league in the modern era imo.

Of course we could blow the league away, that's not up for debate. We were charging much lower entrance prices, had lower attendances, smaller main sponsorship package and paying considerably more on wages in the ISL. With our current setup I'd have a guess that we could probably double our wage bill and still make a profit. The question is, should we? I personally don't think we should. Spending 'what we can afford' would imo but the league structure under increased strain and I personally don't want that.

Spending wars have proved to be very bad for this sport and many others too, if we up our spending I can only assume others would do the same and poof, back to 2003 and the collapse of yet another league. I don't want that, I remember the summer of 03 and not knowing if we'd have a league to play in, that was no fun at all. It amazes me how many fans have only seen EIHL hockey and therefore only the 'good times', be careful what you wish for guys.

*Applause*

[pantherdman]

You are entitled to your opinion, I would agree if we had actually won the league a couple of times. This attitude is the reason we won't win the league, too nice.

'oh, really sorry poorly run clubs with no fans, of course we wont ripe you appart like you used to do to us, we won't upset the gravey train, don't worry about our gullible fans they'll bend over and take it.'

I would settle for actually starting the league at full strength, or perhaps if we are only at 80% we get 20% off our tickets? They'd soon ensure we were at 100% if it cost them money.

[tessier26]

Sept 13, 2012 15:32:06 GMT Shaggy said:

Sept 13, 2012 14:06:19 GMT tessier26 said:

We don't know team budgets but its common knowledge that Panthers are the richest team in the league.

No, it's common knowledge* that the Panthers have the largest income... as in, the largest fanbase and therefore the largest revenue. Also good income from sponsorship etc.
That doesn't necessarily mean that the Panthers are the richest team - not if another ownership is prepared to put more of their own money into the team and raise their spending budget that way. There have been plenty of suspicions that Coventry did exactly that a few years ago, and I've also heard it said that's exactly what the current Belfast ownership have been doing.
Now we don't know for sure either way on that score... but it's certainly feasible.


* which is often another way of saying "everyone knows", which is a frequent excuse for not thinking about something oneself and just parroting what has been heard from others. It might be true... but not for certain.


Not if it meant the club folding (worst case) or the budget being slashed for the next few years to compensate.
Question - when you go to watch the Panthers all season, is your entire purpose to see them win the league? Or to watch lots of hockey games?
Personally I intend to carry on watching this sport and this team for as long as I can manage... another, what - 40+ years? Massively overspending one year just to win the league seems a little pitiful compared to that.

Its clear to anyone who really takes a proper look at this club what its priorities are and its not winning the league for the fans.

You seem to be devoted to the concept of 'if we want it enough we will get it'. I don't know if you've noticed this, but there are a few other organisations involved who would also want the same thing...?
It's a fallacy to assume that just because the Panthers haven't won the league it means that they don't want it (enough or at all), or - to put it another way - it's a fallacy to assume that 'if we don't win it that means we didn't try hard enough'.
Real life simply isn't like that...

Shaggy do you ever have a set opinion on anything discussed or just stay in the middle ground indecisive? I've always been a strongly opiniated person myself. As pantherdman said it seems most fans have the wrong attitude, accept what they are given. I just hope those same fans don't moan about never winning the league!

[Shaggy]

Sept 13, 2012 17:15:53 GMT pantherdman said:

You are entitled to your opinion, I would agree if we had actually won the league a couple of times. This attitude is the reason we won't win the league, too nice.

To use your own words... you are entitled to your opinion. I still think you are completely wrong, though.

This attitude, almost a fantasy world that some people seem to live in, where 'I want = I get' appears to be something approaching a natural law... where anyone who doesn't hold the same hardline stance is 'too nice' or 'gullible' or a 'happy clapper' or whatever (are you all related to U.S. Republicans or something? )... it really doesn't bear much resemblance to reality. Most of the time, life's not like that. By and large, life isn't black and white, Good And Evil (TM)... it's shades of grey (no, not 50! ) it's inexact, it's much messier and vaguer than that. The idea, for example, that Neil Black is only interested in the money and cares not one jot about the league title... how narrow-minded, even childish is that? Has it not occurred to people that maybe he DOES want to win the league, but has set a budget and will not exceed it for any reason, because he's a canny businessman and has seen first hand (sometimes whilst bailing them out!) what happens to clubs who do? That he has two priorities, but won't allow one to override the other?
Or the attitudes of fans... hell, I want the Panthers to win a league title so much I can almost taste it... but I'm not going to go all postal when they don't, I'm not going to blame absolutely everybody, etc etc. After all, it's not as if the Panthers are the only team out there who want to win, is it?
I mean - what is this... "where there's a game there's a blame"?

Sept 13, 2012 20:27:32 GMT tessier26 said:

Shaggy do you ever have a set opinion on anything discussed or just stay in the middle ground indecisive?

Oh, I do have set and/or strong opinions on many subjects... British player development, the many and varied failings of the EIHL and the rest of the sport in general, DS The BS, the catering at the NIC, over-obsession with fighting, that blasted 'Woo!' song they keep playing, etc etc...
However, I'm also aware of the fact that many subjects are far from clear-cut. Sometimes the middle ground is the way to go.
Basically, I have an innate distrust (in general) of extremism, fanaticism, etc... and some of the opinions/crusades that have been touted on this forum - including by yourself - strike me as being very much in that mould. No, I'm not immune to that failing myself... although I do try... but there you go.

I've always been a strongly opiniated person myself.

No - never!

As pantherdman said it seems most fans have the wrong attitude, accept what they are given.

And I strongly disagree with the both of you. There - is that decisive enough for you?

[tessier26]

Sept 13, 2012 21:32:59 GMT Shaggy said:

Sept 13, 2012 17:15:53 GMT pantherdman said:

You are entitled to your opinion, I would agree if we had actually won the league a couple of times. This attitude is the reason we won't win the league, too nice.

To use your own words... you are entitled to your opinion. I still think you are completely wrong, though.

This attitude, almost a fantasy world that some people seem to live in, where 'I want = I get' appears to be something approaching a natural law... where anyone who doesn't hold the same hardline stance is 'too nice' or 'gullible' or a 'happy clapper' or whatever (are you all related to U.S. Republicans or something? )... it really doesn't bear much resemblance to reality. Most of the time, life's not like that. By and large, life isn't black and white, Good And Evil (TM)... it's shades of grey (no, not 50! ) it's inexact, it's much messier and vaguer than that. The idea, for example, that Neil Black is only interested in the money and cares not one jot about the league title... how narrow-minded, even childish is that? Has it not occurred to people that maybe he DOES want to win the league, but has set a budget and will not exceed it for any reason, because he's a canny businessman and has seen first hand (sometimes whilst bailing them out!) what happens to clubs who do? That he has two priorities, but won't allow one to override the other?
Or the attitudes of fans... hell, I want the Panthers to win a league title so much I can almost taste it... but I'm not going to go all postal when they don't, I'm not going to blame absolutely everybody, etc etc. After all, it's not as if the Panthers are the only team out there who want to win, is it?
I mean - what is this... "where there's a game there's a blame"?


Oh, I do have set and/or strong opinions on many subjects... British player development, the many and varied failings of the EIHL and the rest of the sport in general, DS The BS, the catering at the NIC, over-obsession with fighting, that blasted 'Woo!' song they keep playing, etc etc...
However, I'm also aware of the fact that many subjects are far from clear-cut. Sometimes the middle ground is the way to go.
Basically, I have an innate distrust (in general) of extremism, fanaticism, etc... and some of the opinions/crusades that have been touted on this forum - including by yourself - strike me as being very much in that mould. No, I'm not immune to that failing myself... although I do try... but there you go.


No - never!

As pantherdman said it seems most fans have the wrong attitude, accept what they are given.

And I strongly disagree with the both of you. There - is that decisive enough for you?

I'll just say that when im giving Panthers my money every year for a season ticket i do get a bit of a "i want i get attitude". I want to see the team win and the league has been a target of the fans for years but we still don't get it. If Black wanted the league we could have won it by now. Do you not expect a return on your investment in the club Shaggy?, its ok being entertained by the games but its embaressing for a club like Panthers to STILL not have won the league since 1956!

[Pies]

Sept 13, 2012 21:40:16 GMT tessier26 said:

Sept 13, 2012 21:32:59 GMT Shaggy said:

To use your own words... you are entitled to your opinion. I still think you are completely wrong, though.

This attitude, almost a fantasy world that some people seem to live in, where 'I want = I get' appears to be something approaching a natural law... where anyone who doesn't hold the same hardline stance is 'too nice' or 'gullible' or a 'happy clapper' or whatever (are you all related to U.S. Republicans or something? )... it really doesn't bear much resemblance to reality. Most of the time, life's not like that. By and large, life isn't black and white, Good And Evil (TM)... it's shades of grey (no, not 50! ) it's inexact, it's much messier and vaguer than that. The idea, for example, that Neil Black is only interested in the money and cares not one jot about the league title... how narrow-minded, even childish is that? Has it not occurred to people that maybe he DOES want to win the league, but has set a budget and will not exceed it for any reason, because he's a canny businessman and has seen first hand (sometimes whilst bailing them out!) what happens to clubs who do? That he has two priorities, but won't allow one to override the other?
Or the attitudes of fans... hell, I want the Panthers to win a league title so much I can almost taste it... but I'm not going to go all postal when they don't, I'm not going to blame absolutely everybody, etc etc. After all, it's not as if the Panthers are the only team out there who want to win, is it?
I mean - what is this... "where there's a game there's a blame"?


Oh, I do have set and/or strong opinions on many subjects... British player development, the many and varied failings of the EIHL and the rest of the sport in general, DS The BS, the catering at the NIC, over-obsession with fighting, that blasted 'Woo!' song they keep playing, etc etc...
However, I'm also aware of the fact that many subjects are far from clear-cut. Sometimes the middle ground is the way to go.
Basically, I have an innate distrust (in general) of extremism, fanaticism, etc... and some of the opinions/crusades that have been touted on this forum - including by yourself - strike me as being very much in that mould. No, I'm not immune to that failing myself... although I do try... but there you go.


No - never!


And I strongly disagree with the both of you. There - is that decisive enough for you?

I'll just say that when im giving Panthers my money every year for a season ticket i do get a bit of a "i want i get attitude". I want to see the team win and the league has been a target of the fans for years but we still don't get it. If Black wanted the league we could have won it by now. Do you not expect a return on your investment in the club Shaggy?, its ok being entertained by the games but its embaressing for a club like Panthers to STILL not have won the league since 1956!

The Hull fans give their money to their club every year. i bet they want a trophy. Doesnt mean theyll get it.

And theres a reason Neil Black is a succesful business man who is one of the few men who can afford to run a hockey club - because he realises that if he overspent, he's be putting other clubs out of business and without other clubs, his business is worthless.

If you have a problem with NB, contact him and voice your concerns. Tell him how to spend his own money - ultimatly youre putting money into his business, which Panthers is, he is entitled to spend the money accordingly. And if you don't like the way it's being spent, don't give it to him. Or become a Steelers fan and watch your money go down the toilet every other season to keep fans, who like yourself, don't see the bigger picture.

And yes I want to see us win the league. But not at the expense that this team folds. As pervious posts have pointed out, the ISL didn't work and the routes youre suggesting are exactly what caused that leagues downfall

[Shaggy]

Sept 13, 2012 21:40:16 GMT tessier26 said:

I'll just say that when im giving Panthers my money every year for a season ticket i do get a bit of a "i want i get attitude". I want to see the team win and the league has been a target of the fans for years but we still don't get it. If Black wanted the league we could have won it by now. Do you not expect a return on your investment in the club Shaggy?, its ok being entertained by the games but its embaressing for a club like Panthers to STILL not have won the league since 1956!

There it is... the highlighted bit. That is the kind of thinking with which I completely disagree, a kind of false logic, and without getting that out of your head there is absolutely no way that we are going to see eye-to-eye.
Wanting to win the league may help.
Massively out-spending everyone else may help.
Any number of other factors may help.
But there are no guarantees. There are so many variables involved... it's impossible to predict or guarantee... and no amount of blathering on about "if Sheffield/Coventry/Belfast can do it then that proves we're slacking" (as is a common theme on this subject) is going to change that.
Sometimes I wish life were that simple, that clear-cut... but it's not. Bite the reality sandwich...

[Mark]

Anyway, not looking too promising on Benedict being involved this weekend.

[cjmatt42]

Sept 13, 2012 21:47:50 GMT Pies said:

Sept 13, 2012 21:40:16 GMT tessier26 said:

I'll just say that when im giving Panthers my money every year for a season ticket i do get a bit of a "i want i get attitude". I want to see the team win and the league has been a target of the fans for years but we still don't get it. If Black wanted the league we could have won it by now. Do you not expect a return on your investment in the club Shaggy?, its ok being entertained by the games but its embaressing for a club like Panthers to STILL not have won the league since 1956!

The Hull fans give their money to their club every year. i bet they want a trophy. Doesnt mean theyll get it.

And theres a reason Neil Black is a succesful business man who is one of the few men who can afford to run a hockey club - because he realises that if he overspent, he's be putting other clubs out of business and without other clubs, his business is worthless.

If you have a problem with NB, contact him and voice your concerns. Tell him how to spend his own money - ultimatly youre putting money into his business, which Panthers is, he is entitled to spend the money accordingly. And if you don't like the way it's being spent, don't give it to him. Or become a Steelers fan and watch your money go down the toilet every other season to keep fans, who like yourself, don't see the bigger picture.

And yes I want to see us win the league. But not at the expense that this team folds. As pervious posts have pointed out, the ISL didn't work and the routes youre suggesting are exactly what caused that leagues downfall

As a relatively new Hockey fan I much prefer this approach, as and when the league is won I'd rather us win it with a roster like this where our team works hard each night for every point rather than saying sod it and spending as much as it takes. In my eyes winning is only as enjoyable as the opposition you play against.

As said I don't mind how money is spent, I take my choice to spend my money on a product I enjoy in the same way as I spend money on every product in the world. I don't care what Greggs do with my 68p for a sausage roll so not sure why being a sport fan should be any different. I used to follow the England football team home and abroad up to the point that I wasn't enjoying the travel, the matches and everything else so I stopped. In the world of business there are those that take the risks and those that don't, those that do take the rewards and I'm fine with that.

An honest question to those that say we should blow the budget out the water. If you are in the hotseat and own the club do you run the club to breakeven each year or make whatever standard of living you want? I know what I'd be doing, looking to make money and in sport nothing makes money more than success so arguments about not wanting to win the league I imagine are a little off the mark.