Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 9, 2011 11:25:08 GMT
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Phil Mitchell
Robert Lachowicz
winning is the only option
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Post by Phil Mitchell on Jul 9, 2011 11:57:06 GMT
what is it with some of the clubs out there bad owners bad arena management companies bad debts I seriousley worry about the stability of ice hockey in this country Besides ourselves...what is the future of the other league clubs
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Mark
Randall Weber
Experience has taught me that when it really matters the only person you can rely on is yourself.
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Post by Mark on Jul 9, 2011 13:03:49 GMT
what is it with some of the clubs out there bad owners bad arena management companies bad debts I seriousley worry about the stability of ice hockey in this country Besides ourselves...what is the future of the other league clubs It's not some of the clubs, it's all the clubs. Except Nottingham. You are in an extremely fortunate position. Fortune's got nothing to do with it. It's called good management and living within your means. Something most clubs in the EIHL it seems know nothing about.
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Post by GuinnessMan on Jul 9, 2011 14:00:24 GMT
what is it with some of the clubs out there bad owners bad arena management companies bad debts I seriousley worry about the stability of ice hockey in this country Besides ourselves...what is the future of the other league clubs It's not some of the clubs, it's all the clubs. Except Nottingham. You are in an extremely fortunate position. Without the other teams, Nottingham is nothing.
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Post by pantherfan007 on Jul 9, 2011 14:16:24 GMT
It's not some of the clubs, it's all the clubs. Except Nottingham. You are in an extremely fortunate position. Fortune's got nothing to do with it. It's called good management and living within your means. Something most clubs in the EIHL it seems know nothing about. I have a sneaky suspicion that plenty of cities would have stable teams given the level of infrastructure support that we've been given. Hard to say it's all to do with management when you look at the NIC compared to other rinks/arenas. In fact, it might be no coincidence that the two most stable clubs happen to play out of the best arenas (Belfast and us).
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Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 9, 2011 14:21:33 GMT
It's not some of the clubs, it's all the clubs. Except Nottingham. You are in an extremely fortunate position. Without the other teams, Nottingham is nothing. Guinessman is spot on... but it's not "all" of the clubs by any means. The league itself is a mess, certainly - but that affects us as well (although not to the same extent, because we have the financial stability to ride out most waves). As for the other clubs? - Coventry are pretty stable. Yes, they have Planet Ice to put up with, but they've managed to cope nonetheless. And the Coventry lot are now running Hull... their situation is much improved. Belfast also appear to be doing quite nicely. It's too early to say re Dundee and Braehead... although with Neil Black also owning the Clan, you've got to imagine that gives them a bit of a boost - NB is no fool. Fife? - no idea yet. Edinburgh are a perennial problem, lurching along almost at the point of collapse... but always surviving - hopefully things will pick up for them a bit now that Scottish EIHL hockey is getting stronger. That leaves Cardiff and Sheffield. Both of whom have suffered bad ownership (including both being owned by Bob Phillips and Paul Ragan), both who have had serious problems with their arena/rink, both of whom have a battered fanbase, bad debts, and suspected problems & poor reputation with both sponsors & suppliers. So... that's 30-50% of the league in decent shape (Belfast, Coventry & Nottingham - possibly Braehead & Hull as well)... 20% we just don't know yet (Dundee & Fife)... and 30% in a bad way (Cardiff, Edinburgh & Sheffield). A bad situation - very bad - no doubt... but hardly "all" of the clubs.
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Post by james1977 on Jul 9, 2011 15:37:34 GMT
Panthers were never 'handed' the NIC, in fact the Panthers management had to fight to be allowed to use it.
Whilst they are in the NIC now the Panthers don't get any favours, they pay the same rate to use the arena as any other event (which is a charge that is higher than any of the other EIHL teams) but are lower priority users than others and thus can be bumped for others events that are running extra nights.
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Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 9, 2011 16:32:18 GMT
Wasn't one of the conditions of the lottery funding that there be a professional ice hockey team play there? No - the condition of which you are thinking was that a certain percentage of time had to be devoted to ice sports - note the plural, that means more than just ice hockey... and for the latter, more than just one team.
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Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 9, 2011 16:37:43 GMT
Fortune's got nothing to do with it. It's called good management and living within your means. Something most clubs in the EIHL it seems know nothing about. Fortune has everything to do with it. Nobody is denying that the Panthers have good managment, great management in fact. But it's easy to 'live within your means' when you get handed a venue like the NIC. Of course the club still has to fill it every week, and has to be successful, but it's a lot easier to do that when you have the infrastructure there already. Middle ground here, guys... it is partly down to "fortune". Yes, we have the NIC, but the Panthers had a rock-solid fanbase whilst still in the old rink. Yes, the increased capacity instantly led to higher attendances (proving the strength of the fanbase) and therefore more income... but costs are also much higher, and the scheduling issues can be a pain (hence 3 double-header away weekends in September). Yes, the increased income has given the Panthers much more scope... but it has alos been managed well. Just look a little bit up the M1 for an example of how a club with the largest attendances in the country can crash and burn. The Panthers are where they are for a variety of reasons... luck is one of them, but there's also hard work, fan loyalty, financial prudence, etc etc. In fact, it might be no coincidence that the two most stable clubs happen to play out of the best arenas (Belfast and us). Actually, seeing as Belfast did have serious issues not that long ago, the two most stable clubs would have to be ourselves and Coventry. Sorry, but that kicks out your "best arenas" theory... and puts it straight back to good management. But wasn't this thread about Cardiff, not just another "the Panthers got lucky" repetition...?
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Mark
Randall Weber
Experience has taught me that when it really matters the only person you can rely on is yourself.
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Post by Mark on Jul 9, 2011 19:54:32 GMT
Perhaps part of being "lucky" is the fans in Nottingham aren't fly by night glory hunters who only turn up to watch a winning team. The great venue arguement doesn't hold water either, how do you explain the attendances in the old Rink? Why have Belfast struggled in recent years to attract consistently good crowds playing out of the Odessey?
I think putting it all down to luck is doing a huge disservice to those people who down the years have worked their socks off to keep the Panthers going.
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Post by richard1969 on Jul 10, 2011 17:55:35 GMT
I seriousley worry about the stability of ice hockey in this country Besides ourselves...what is the future of the other league clubs I have read on many threads on here in the past that if we were to win the League once we would do a Man Utd and keep winning it I actually believe if that happened before long we would be the only team in GB left playing
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Post by pantherdman on Jul 10, 2011 18:15:13 GMT
Are we in Europe yet?
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Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 10, 2011 18:24:10 GMT
I seriousley worry about the stability of ice hockey in this country Besides ourselves...what is the future of the other league clubs I have read on many threads on here in the past that if we were to win the League once we would do a Man Utd and keep winning it I actually believe if that happened before long we would be the only team in GB left playing How'd you work that one out?
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Post by cooperphil156 on Jul 10, 2011 18:30:22 GMT
With regard to hire of the NIC, charges are up this year and so are admission prices. But it is a tight ship run by Neil Black and panthers should stay out of trouble financially. With regard to "stability of ice hockey in this country", just look at top teams no longer there, who used to get big crowds. Yes Panthers need stable clubs to play against (including Steelers) as we are all in it together.
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Mark
Randall Weber
Experience has taught me that when it really matters the only person you can rely on is yourself.
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Post by Mark on Jul 10, 2011 19:13:43 GMT
With regard to hire of the NIC, charges are up this year and so are admission prices. But it is a tight ship run by Neil Black and panthers should stay out of trouble financially. With regard to "stability of ice hockey in this country", just look at top teams no longer there, who used to get big crowds. Yes Panthers need stable clubs to play against (including Steelers) as we are all in it together. Fair points but it's not the fault of the Panthers that clubs like the Steelers constantly spend what they haven't got. What are the odds that this particular club overspend again this season? It's the league's job to police itself more responsibly but given the self interest, ego's and plain bad management, what are the chances of this happening? Slim to none in my opinion.
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Post by Heanor Lair on Jul 10, 2011 20:05:49 GMT
It's not some of the clubs, it's all the clubs. Except Nottingham. You are in an extremely fortunate position. Without the other teams, Nottingham is nothing. Rubbish - without the other teams Nottingham moves onwards and upwards. HL
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Post by HockeyPlayer07 on Jul 10, 2011 20:37:42 GMT
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Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 10, 2011 20:57:15 GMT
Without the other teams, Nottingham is nothing. Rubbish - without the other teams Nottingham moves onwards and upwards. And what would we do for opposition on the ice? Like it or not, a strong team in a weak league is as vulnerable as anyone else.
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Post by robbo2306 on Jul 10, 2011 23:09:42 GMT
Without the other teams, Nottingham is nothing. Rubbish - without the other teams Nottingham moves onwards and upwards. HL You are in a different world HL. That's the biggest load of rubbish that I've read from you. Would you like to explain who you would play??
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Post by robbo2306 on Jul 10, 2011 23:18:02 GMT
Not so sure I go with the best arena/rink idea. I think location is a major factor for you guy's. The 5 min walk to the city centre is a great advantage. It's no co-incidence that the percentage of families is less at the NIC than at Sheffield.
A Panthers game makes a great start to a night out. Used to be the same in Sheffield when Brannigans and Club Wow were over the road. The loss of those 2 establishments helped (along with many other things) the decline of the fanbase in Sheffield.
No doubt there has been great management in Nottingham but location and a good history have been key to this.
I'd agree with most of the league having issues. You and Coventry roll along each year but all the other clubs have had and probably will continue to have major problems until large changes take place within the whole structure of the league.
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Shaggy
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Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 11, 2011 7:03:57 GMT
Robbo, I'm curious - where do you get this "percentage of families is less at the NIC than Sheffield" bit from? There seem to be an awful lot of families at the Panthers... and that is, I think, one of our strengths - there's a great deal of continuity within the fanbase. Hell - I've known a few families who come to the Panthers where they bring along 3 generations at once! Quite frankly, this fanbase is as close to rock-solid as you are going to find in British ice hockey... You're right about the location, no question - which is one major reason why it gets picked for the play-offs finals weekend... but the actual arena itself, whilst being far from perfect, is IMHO the best in the country - that's got to help a lot as well. Our steep seating makes for great sightlines... something I hear from away fans and first-time visitors all the time. Good management, financial prudence, good arena, solid fanbase, good location, long history, and no doubt no small amount of luck... all of these things (and more?) have contributed to our stability. British ice hockey's perfect storm? No argument with you on the league thing... there's been a lot of vulnerable clubs, and a fair few of them are still very shaky. Coventry and Nottingham - well-run and about as safe as we can get. Belfast - a few shaky times, but seem to be on the right track again. Braehead & Hull with their new ownerships - we shall see. Dundee and Fife - too early to tell. Which leaves 3 perenially-troubled clubs... Cardiff, Edinburgh & Sheffield. Of all of those, I think Cardiff have been less responsible for their own problems (although with some of the owners they've had - Phillips, Ragan, briefly McSorley, etc - they've still messed up from within) but they've largely been the authors of their own misery... because in theory, each of those should be big, strong and thriving. The big exception in those three is, as I said, Cardiff - who didn't choose to have the old WNIR demolished, and now are having problems with the Big Blue Tent (see what I did there to get us back on topic? ).
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Post by texpef on Jul 11, 2011 7:56:50 GMT
For fear of repeating myself yet again before we had the NIC it was clear that we had a budget that was well below that of other clubs and was one that was possible to sustain the club. Even after moving in to the NIC and we had a very good home support the team was a budget one making the club profitable. Yes we won little but we were sustainable..
What i dont get are those fans from other teams especially sheffield but others as well that state they wont support a club that isnt winning but one that the finances can support. Surely it is best to have a club even one that isnt all dominating than no club at all, ask newcastle fans how they feel? I guess complacency has set it in sheffield that they can go bust and someone anyone will pick up the reins for yet another season....
They need to learn the hardway they cant spend what they havent got but they havent had to go through that pain.........yet...
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doug
Robert Lachowicz
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Post by doug on Jul 11, 2011 8:51:14 GMT
Shaggy, when I first started watching hockey in 1994, I was surprised by the lack of children brought by Panthers to the arena. Me and my family attended a cup final (can't remember which one) at Sheffield between you and Ayr and Panthers support was almost totally adult. Since then it may have changed but then your support was mainly adult.
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Post by focus12 on Jul 11, 2011 11:33:26 GMT
Quite often doug, the small capacity prevented families from attending the old building. We were lucky enough that after 94/95 season we were able to afford a season ticket for all our family and have continued watching hockey ever since. Before this though it was difficult to stand with your family outside LPS and queue for a ticket, only to get to the front of the queue to be told "sold out". The larger venue of the NIC has all but eliminated that position.
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Post by robbo2306 on Jul 11, 2011 14:13:03 GMT
Shaggy, you are right, there are many families that go to the NIC. But there does appear to be a greater percentage of families in Sheffield, relative to the size of the crowd. Think this is more to do with your location and the ability to attract the casual supporter on a night out. We don't get this casual support much now so rely more heavily on families.
Pop yourself over to Sheffied this season, might even buy you a pint..........
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