SCUM...

[Nemesis]

As Kai and I left training last night I had to go round a detour owing to what looked a very serious accident just near Ice Shuff. Many emergency vehicles were attending and it looked bad.

Found out this morning that a car had crashed with a fire engine leaving 1 woman dead and a young girl critically ill.

The fire engine was en-route to a hoax call.

If the SCUM that placed that call are every traced they should be prosecuted for murder IMO, their futures forfeit.

[dms41853]

could not agree with you more, that is absolutely disgraceful the police should do everything possible to try and trace whoever made the hoax call.

[Nemesis]

Story >>HERE<<

17 YO scumbag in custody....

[buster]

remember nem, while i share your sentiments of him being punished, the kid has only been arrested on suspicion of making the call (according to the article).

it's sad that someone is going to grow up (if they pull through) without a mum

[NickThePanther44]

I can tell you now, if it was possible, he would be charged for murder and get full whack for it. Unfortunately the guys on the ground don't make those decisions

[Rich]

Jeesh, lock him up and throw away the key.
Use it as material for promoting the prevention of kids doing this kind of thing, try and take a positive from it.

On another point, whether the fireman was on a hoax or not is irrelevant to the crash really. The woman driving the car (r.i.p) didnt know it was a hoax and still didnt manage to take avoiding action to a huge red lorry with horns and sirens blaring and big blue lights flashing. To give murder to the lad would open up a lot of problems with the legal system but I agree, he should be punished. You would hope the severity of what has happened would be enough to mess him up mentally

[Doughnut]

I do think that hoax calling the emergency services should be heavily punished, but murder? Where was the malice or aforethought? At most this would be manslaughter.

Out of curiosity, do those thinking that this guy should be severely punished because of the results of his actions also agree that the same should apply for incidents on the ice or are you the same people who say that the punishment should fit the action/intention not the outcome?

[kilner]

Jun 30, 2008 12:08:08 GMT Rich said:

Jeesh, lock him up and throw away the key.

Didnt know he'd already had a fair trial and been found guilty

[Milkman™]

Just a small point, the guy driving the fire engine should still show proper care and consideration for other road users, would it have made it any 'better', the fatalities, had the appliance been en route to a real fire?

I am not trying to take away the seriousness of the hoax call, the kid deserves a kicking, a good one at that, however there are a growing number of people killed by the irresponsible driving of those very people who try and promote good practice.

[Yotes]

Jun 30, 2008 17:17:29 GMT Milkman™ said:

Just a small point, the guy driving the fire engine should still show proper care and consideration for other road users, would it have made it any 'better', the fatalities, had the appliance been en route to a real fire?

I am not trying to take away the seriousness of the hoax call, the kid deserves a kicking, a good one at that, however there are a growing number of people killed by the irresponsible driving of those very people who try and promote good practice.

You know he was driving irresponsibly then Milko? Maybe the driver who was unfortunately killed pulled out without seeing it coming? Who knows? Certainly not me, and I dare say you.

Whether it'd make it 'better' or not seems rather irrelevant, since the appliance wouldn't have been out had it not been for the hoax, so that particular accident would never have occurred.

[Milkman™]

Jun 30, 2008 17:53:49 GMT Yotes said:

You know he was driving irresponsibly then Milko?

Never said he was, lets wait for the inquest, I said

Jun 30, 2008 17:17:29 GMT Milkman™ said:

the guy driving the fire engine should still show proper care and consideration for other road users

[Nemesis]

Maybe murder is a bit strong, but I actualy saw the accident last night and was enraged to find out the circumstances this morning.

We should have degrees of murder as they do in the US. This kid knowingly or not was complicit in the death of another, the harshest possible charge and then punishment should apply.

[buster]

Jun 30, 2008 20:15:47 GMT Nemesis said:

Maybe murder is a bit strong, but I actualy saw the accident last night and was enraged to find out the circumstances this morning.

We should have degrees of murder as they do in the US. This kid knowingly or not was complicit in the death of another, the harshest possible charge and then punishment should apply.

should the actions of the juvenile be tried as manslaughter then? it seems like a much clearer path of justice, as someone died as a result of his actions even though a fatality wasnt intended.

i dont know.

what i do know is, that the lad (i'm presuming its a lad, maybe ive read it is somewhere) has this weighing on his concious, and will have for a long long time.

[MP]

Jun 30, 2008 21:47:06 GMT @buster said:

has this weighing on his concious, and will have for a long long time.

Assuming he has a conscience.

Certainly seems devoid of a social conscience.

Until all the facts are known though it's not possible to be totally objective about the incident.

Teenagers do stupid things - it's part of growing up - but when other people get hurt by their actions then society as a whole needs to do more.
People should be more aware of the responsibility they have for their own actions and it might rub off onto the kids as they grow up.

[Deleted]

Jun 30, 2008 20:15:47 GMT Nemesis said:

Maybe murder is a bit strong, but I actualy saw the accident last night and was enraged to find out the circumstances this morning.

We should have degrees of murder as they do in the US. This kid knowingly or not was complicit in the death of another, the harshest possible charge and then punishment should apply.

Nem this is no more than a manslaughter charge

[buster]

jesus, i just realised what a poor mix up of words (not strcitly a spelling mistake) i just made.

[Fraggle]

You would probably not believe the amount of morons out there that make hoax calls to emergency services day in, day out. Add to that the many, many calls that come in that are NOT emergencies, no wonder all the 999 services are under tremendous strain. (That's not including the under resourcing, under staffing etc, I could go on...)

[Rumpole]

Hoax calls, generally prosecuted under the Telecommunications legislation, carry a maximum of 6 months imprisonment for an adult. A 17 year old would be dealt with in the Youth Court, and the sentence depends on a variety of criteria, but a Detention and Training Order is a possibility.

A prosecution for murder is out of the question.

A successful prosecution for manslaughter is, in my view, unlikely. Manslaughter can be committed in a number of ways; "Illegal Act" manslaughter requires the death to be a result of the illegal act, and the unlawful act must be one which "all sober and reasonable people would inevitably realise must subject the victim to, at least the risk of some harm resulting therefrom...".

I think the word "inevitable" scuppers a prosecution for manslaughter.

There is a clear break in the chain of causation as well.

More serious cases of hoax calls can be prosecuted as being a public nuisance, which carries much longer sentences.

Research suggests there are some 75000 hoax calls per annum, so it is a big problem, but the consequences are rarely as extreme as in this case.

[Jay]

Tbh its not hard to notice a huge red fire truck blasting out sirens and flashing blue lights. Perhaps this whole situation could of been avoided had the driver of the subaru and firetruck been abit more cautious.

My deepest sympathy goes out to the family and friends.

[Rich]

Jun 30, 2008 12:52:55 GMT kilner said:

Jun 30, 2008 12:08:08 GMT Rich said:

Jeesh, lock him up and throw away the key.

Didnt know he'd already had a fair trial and been found guilty

Obviously, subject to trial!

[Milkman™]

Jul 1, 2008 15:36:30 GMT Jay said:

Tbh its not hard to notice a huge red fire truck blasting out sirens and flashing blue lights.

Or the fire appliance had not gone through a red light (causing severe damage to the drivers side of the Sub) at a junction where visibility is very bad (hence it being under light control), there is also a query as to whether sirens were being used

Link

I'd still hang the Simms who called the brigade, but to say he killed the woman is a very tenuous link

[grumpyminer]

Jul 1, 2008 15:36:30 GMT Jay said:

Tbh its not hard to notice a huge red fire truck blasting out sirens and flashing blue lights. Perhaps this whole situation could of been avoided had the driver of the subaru and firetruck been abit more cautious.

My deepest sympathy goes out to the family and friends.

Here we can start another debate.

If you are in a car with your stereo/cd player on and a huge red firetruck is travelling along with its "woo-woo" American style siren, you aren't necessarily gonna hear it until it is almost on top of you. I have lost count of the number of times I have glanced in the mirror to see the huge red truck with its blue lights flashing and only then do I hear its tones (I don't have the stereo on mega loud either).

Surely the old "der-der" tones were better. They were louder, so you could start to make way sooner.

[oldman]

going along the ring road between beechdale swimming pool and aspley roundabout last week roads not to busy everyone pulled over to the near side to let an ambulance through with flashing lights everything going off except one car who had no idea what the heck was in his mirror, and stayed in the way he was probably listening to take that or something maybe!Either that or stevie wonder was behind the wheel

[Rich]

According to the star yesterday, the lad concerned claimed he was "bored" as an excuse!
Time to make an example

[MP]

Jul 2, 2008 20:37:06 GMT grumpyminer said:

Surely the old "der-der" tones were better. They were louder, so you could start to make way sooner.

I thought the new (and varied) tones used these days were supposed to be more audible.

Our local fire appliances have tremendous low frequency air horns fitted which nigh on shake the house foundations when they use them approaching the road junctions! Given the volume levels some people play their in car hi-fis at, it's debatable whether even these can be heard at times.