iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,422
|
Post by iginla on Mar 31, 2024 15:39:13 GMT
He's one of the strangest players to ever pull on a Panthers shirt for me. Most players that are seen to be a failure or not good enough are seen that way either due to lack of effort or just not being good enough. In my eyes he works hard every shift and has the skills to make things happen. He's even prepared to stick up for team mates when needed. His out put and stats just dont match all of that. He just appears to lose all his ability and composure once he gets to the hash markings. I like Anderson as a Panthers player a lot. He puts in 100% every shift for all three periods but the problem is that he wouldn’t get into any other arena team because apart from the effort he doesn’t bring a lot more to the line. That and he’s -18 too.
|
|
iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,422
|
Post by iginla on Mar 31, 2024 15:43:18 GMT
Go on then. I will bite. Why has the defence tightened up? Not because they’re playing lower end teams, there must be a cynical reason. Playing for new contracts is my guess. I think he's suggesting it's been since Neill has been out. And Ryczek. Plus you’ve now got the two quality Dmen eating up more minutes.
|
|
|
Post by pantherlee on Mar 31, 2024 16:13:59 GMT
I like Anderson as a Panthers player a lot. He puts in 100% every shift for all three periods but the problem is that he wouldn’t get into any other arena team because apart from the effort he doesn’t bring a lot more to the line. That and he’s -18 too. +/- really is your new favourite hobby horse you love to ride at the minute isn’t it
|
|
iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,422
|
Post by iginla on Mar 31, 2024 16:32:53 GMT
+/- really is your new favourite hobby horse you love to ride at the minute isn’t it Yes,one of them,I believe it tells a lot.
|
|
|
Post by jd on Mar 31, 2024 17:34:30 GMT
+/- really is your new favourite hobby horse you love to ride at the minute isn’t it That and spin apparently! Still hasn’t answered the question.
|
|
|
Post by bobness on Mar 31, 2024 18:42:46 GMT
+/- really is your new favourite hobby horse you love to ride at the minute isn’t it Now he's got it to look at, he can use it when it suits his agenda. Well, except where Tetlow's concerned, but that's just an irrational hatred. When you don't attend any games, you need to latch onto the stats as they're all you've got.
|
|
Smudge
Jade Galbraith
Posts: 120
|
Post by Smudge on Mar 31, 2024 19:04:23 GMT
+/- really is your new favourite hobby horse you love to ride at the minute isn’t it Now he's got it to look at, he can use it when it suits his agenda. Well, except where Tetlow's concerned, but that's just an irrational hatred. When you don't attend any games, you need to latch onto the stats as they're all you've got. I thought Tetlow played a solid game last night. There was one bobbling puck in the second he didn’t control which led to a breakaway which Hazeldine did well to get back for. Other than that, the pair of them worked well together. I do like the speed with which Tetlow passes the puck. Gives it quite a rip, so much so that the recipient sometimes struggles to control it. But that’s not Josh’s fault.
|
|
|
Post by jd on Mar 31, 2024 19:16:13 GMT
Now he's got it to look at, he can use it when it suits his agenda. Well, except where Tetlow's concerned, but that's just an irrational hatred. When you don't attend any games, you need to latch onto the stats as they're all you've got. I thought Tetlow played a solid game last night. There was one bobbling puck in the second he didn’t control which led to a breakaway which Hazeldine did well to get back for. Other than that, the pair of them worked well together. I do like the speed with which Tetlow passes the puck. Gives it quite a rip, so much so that the recipient sometimes struggles to control it. But that’s not Josh’s fault. Few more players I’d be more concerned about before Tetlow tbh. And totally agree about the passing, he doesn’t mess about
|
|
|
Post by rexkramer on Mar 31, 2024 19:21:10 GMT
I'd have zero issues with a Tetlow, Hazeldine, Kelsall, Ollie, Neilson Brit pack next season. That would be amongst the strongest in the league for depth.
|
|
|
Post by pantherlee on Mar 31, 2024 20:43:17 GMT
+/- really is your new favourite hobby horse you love to ride at the minute isn’t it Now he's got it to look at, he can use it when it suits his agenda. Well, except where Tetlow's concerned, but that's just an irrational hatred. When you don't attend any games, you need to latch onto the stats as they're all you've got. You beat me to it. A nice convenient stat that’s so vague and open to interpretation he can manipulate it when it suits him
|
|
|
Post by bobness on Mar 31, 2024 20:51:56 GMT
Now he's got it to look at, he can use it when it suits his agenda. Well, except where Tetlow's concerned, but that's just an irrational hatred. When you don't attend any games, you need to latch onto the stats as they're all you've got. You beat me to it. A nice convenient stat that’s so vague and open to interpretation he can manipulate it when it suits him Sadly, as I've calculated, rather than just parroted the EIHL figures, Panthers "best" D man this season for "+/- per 60 ice time" (if you don't like pure +/- this is surely at least a little better) is... Have a guess...
|
|
float
Pat Casey
Posts: 214
|
Post by float on Mar 31, 2024 21:13:17 GMT
I'd have zero issues with a Tetlow, Hazeldine, Kelsall, Ollie, Neilson Brit pack next season. That would be amongst the strongest in the league for depth. Agreed, also think it’s a Brit pack to see us through a number of seasons. On another tangent… Brett Perlini was at the forest game on saturday…
|
|
|
Post by Bagheera on Mar 31, 2024 21:20:08 GMT
I'd have zero issues with a Tetlow, Hazeldine, Kelsall, Ollie, Neilson Brit pack next season. That would be amongst the strongest in the league for depth. Agreed, also think it’s a Brit pack to see us through a number of seasons. On another tangent… Brett Perlini was at the forest game on saturday… Ha, Black would have to open his wallet for that. No chance. It should be a decision a CEO can make without a business owner, but Pacha is just a GM with a fancy title. Somebody else Black expects to be a puppet and a lightening rod to take all the grief.
|
|
|
Post by wgray on Mar 31, 2024 21:20:55 GMT
You beat me to it. A nice convenient stat that’s so vague and open to interpretation he can manipulate it when it suits him Sadly, as I've calculated, rather than just parroted the EIHL figures, Panthers "best" D man this season for "+/- per 60 ice time" (if you don't like pure +/- this is surely at least a little better) is... Have a guess... Tetlow?
|
|
iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,422
|
Post by iginla on Mar 31, 2024 21:29:54 GMT
Now he's got it to look at, he can use it when it suits his agenda. Well, except where Tetlow's concerned, but that's just an irrational hatred. When you don't attend any games, you need to latch onto the stats as they're all you've got. You beat me to it. A nice convenient stat that’s so vague and open to interpretation he can manipulate it when it suits him Lol the way you lot go on anybody would think I invented +/- stats myself just to suit my own arguments….I didn’t. Why would the hockey world even have it if it’s of no relevance ? It’s like goalie saves % ,it doesn’t always paint the whole picture but it gives a reasonable indication of a player. There will be occasions where it’s not a true picture but if a player is consistently showing poor +\- stats or a goalie a poor saves % over various years,especially with different teams then in my opinion that tells you something. Or it should do ! I bet I could trawl through past threads of Panthers player signings and find where people (other than me) have said something like “oh he looks poor his +\- stats are horrible).
|
|
|
Post by jd on Mar 31, 2024 22:05:25 GMT
Sadly, as I've calculated, rather than just parroted the EIHL figures, Panthers "best" D man this season for "+/- per 60 ice time" (if you don't like pure +/- this is surely at least a little better) is... Have a guess... Tetlow? Last season in Finland he was +11 Previous to that -11 with panthers, on a poor panthers team again
|
|
|
Post by blackandgold73 on Mar 31, 2024 22:16:46 GMT
Sam Herr, Ontario Reign 18/19. +/- of -26
Bloody good job no-one tried to bring him to the Panthers for the 19-20 season! Iggy would have been crying bloody murder. Oh no, wait a minute...
Or Spencer Naas this year: 32G + 24A for a +/- of... 0. Hands up anyone who wouldn't take Naas (another player like Roy yet to take a single penalty all season!) as a potential Panther next year based on his oh so unimpressive +/-? Exactly.
If Jagr could score 57 points in a rookie NHL season but still end up - on the +/- I'm surprised anybody would take a punt on him long term. In fact they might have wanted to listen to the +/- naysayers as he had five NHL seasons with a negative +/-
Similarly Crosby has had a 100pt+ season and still ended up on a negative +/-.
Anyone seriously asking people to judge players largely on +/- needs their head examined. Or to watch some hockey.
It's the bluntest of blunt tools and the equivalent of recording only how far someone can throw the javelin in an Olympic final and deciding not to bother about recording wind speed and direction. Because how could they possibly be relevant??
|
|
iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,422
|
Post by iginla on Mar 31, 2024 22:43:26 GMT
Sam Herr, Ontario Reign 18/19. +/- of -26 Bloody good job no-one tried to bring him to the Panthers for the 19-20 season! Iggy would have been crying bloody murder. Oh no, wait a minute... Or Spencer Naas this year: 32G + 24A for a +/- of... 0. Hands up anyone who wouldn't take Naas (another player like Roy yet to take a single penalty all season!) as a potential Panther next year based on his oh so unimpressive +/-? Exactly. If Jagr could score 57 points in a rookie NHL season but still end up - on the +/- I'm surprised anybody would take a punt on him long term. In fact they might have wanted to listen to the +/- naysayers as he had five NHL seasons with a negative +/- Similarly Crosby has had a 100pt+ season and still ended up on a negative +/-. Anyone seriously asking people to judge players largely on +/- needs their head examined. Or to watch some hockey. It's the bluntest of blunt tools and the equivalent of recording only how far someone can throw the javelin in an Olympic final and deciding not to bother about recording wind speed and direction. Because how could they possibly be relevant?? Ah yes the very same Sam Herr that had good or decent +\- stats in virtually every other season than the one you’ve picked. How very,very convenient that is. And they say I’m the one who uses stats only when the narrative suits ! Haha 🤣🤣
|
|
|
Post by jd on Mar 31, 2024 23:31:41 GMT
Sam Herr, Ontario Reign 18/19. +/- of -26 Bloody good job no-one tried to bring him to the Panthers for the 19-20 season! Iggy would have been crying bloody murder. Oh no, wait a minute... Or Spencer Naas this year: 32G + 24A for a +/- of... 0. Hands up anyone who wouldn't take Naas (another player like Roy yet to take a single penalty all season!) as a potential Panther next year based on his oh so unimpressive +/-? Exactly. If Jagr could score 57 points in a rookie NHL season but still end up - on the +/- I'm surprised anybody would take a punt on him long term. In fact they might have wanted to listen to the +/- naysayers as he had five NHL seasons with a negative +/- Similarly Crosby has had a 100pt+ season and still ended up on a negative +/-. Anyone seriously asking people to judge players largely on +/- needs their head examined. Or to watch some hockey. It's the bluntest of blunt tools and the equivalent of recording only how far someone can throw the javelin in an Olympic final and deciding not to bother about recording wind speed and direction. Because how could they possibly be relevant?? Ah yes the very same Sam Herr that had good or decent +\- stats in virtually every other season than the one you’ve picked. How very,very convenient that is. And they say I’m the one who uses stats only when the narrative suits ! Haha 🤣🤣 He was only positive in 1 of his previous 5 seasons before joining us. Just wondered, have you managed to work out what that spin was that you mentioned around Pare’s signing?
|
|
|
Post by blackandgold73 on Mar 31, 2024 23:56:28 GMT
Sam Herr, Ontario Reign 18/19. +/- of -26 Bloody good job no-one tried to bring him to the Panthers for the 19-20 season! Iggy would have been crying bloody murder. Oh no, wait a minute... Or Spencer Naas this year: 32G + 24A for a +/- of... 0. Hands up anyone who wouldn't take Naas (another player like Roy yet to take a single penalty all season!) as a potential Panther next year based on his oh so unimpressive +/-? Exactly. If Jagr could score 57 points in a rookie NHL season but still end up - on the +/- I'm surprised anybody would take a punt on him long term. In fact they might have wanted to listen to the +/- naysayers as he had five NHL seasons with a negative +/- Similarly Crosby has had a 100pt+ season and still ended up on a negative +/-. Anyone seriously asking people to judge players largely on +/- needs their head examined. Or to watch some hockey. It's the bluntest of blunt tools and the equivalent of recording only how far someone can throw the javelin in an Olympic final and deciding not to bother about recording wind speed and direction. Because how could they possibly be relevant?? Ah yes the very same Sam Herr that had good or decent +\- stats in virtually every other season than the one you’ve picked. How very,very convenient that is. And they say I’m the one who uses stats only when the narrative suits ! Haha 🤣🤣 Really? Good stats you say? Sam Herr, prior to joining Panthers: (because that's what we're talking about: how your insight into +/- told you so much about Herr; and consequently why we should trust you and the numbers about Tetlow and discount anything else we've observed) Sam Herr: College Career 12-13. -3 13-14. +14 14-15. -9 15-16. -2 1 +ve season in 4. Overall - 0Sam Herr: Pro Career 15-16. 0 16-17. +3 17-18. -3 18-19. -26 1 +ve season in 4. Overall -26.If you consider those "good or decent +/- stats" for the seven seasons prior to a signing then what are we to make of your assessment that Tetlow is a stinker and that +/- tells a lot? How are they good? What are the demonstrating? Because if +/- tells us so much shouldn't teams just sign the best plus minus they can see on Elite Prospects each year? Saying Herr's stats are "good or decent" in virtually every other year to try and win a point is one thing Dave. Next time post them, like I just did. Then we can see for ourselves whether they are, and also how much weight to give the veracity of your statement. And if as you say these are good stats then please explain to the rest of us what you're seeing in them *specifically"? Because if as you've often maintained (though the post can somehow never be found) that you knew Herr was going to be a great how is that visible here? After all +/- tells us *a lot" right? Yet right now most might say there wasn't much +/- info to suggest Herr was going to be a standout signing is there? Not even a good one based on the supposed 'lot' that just +/- alone can supposedly tell us. Or, does the bar for +/- greatness really get set so low? So here's the chance to enlighten us all, to share the benefit of the knowledge that you assert is so often overlooked... Why don't you show everyone else what they told you? Then we can take your word for it on Tetlow. Isn't that what you want? So I'll start with... What kind of player did they lead you to think he was? And how did they illustrate that? What kind of role did they lead you to think he'd fulfil? And how did they illustrate that? What do they tell your about his work ethic? And how did they illustrate that? What do they tell your about his PP or PK abilities? And how do they illustrate that? About his TOI? His TOI on the PP or PK? And how do they illustrate that? What do they tell you about whether he's going to try and pick up and carry an entire team across the line like he did so many time? And how did they illustrate that? How to they show you his leadership skills? And how did they illustrate that? Or should we just start with something more basic... What is it about those numbers, in particular, that led you to believe he would put up better scoring numbers than Jake Hansen who had been in the DEL only 3 seasons earlier, or Brett Bulmer who'd been in the NHL four years earlier? To save you some time and help you work your +/- magic here are Hansen and Bulmers four seasons prior to that year playing with Herr for comparison purposes. Hansen -3 -8 +7 +7 Bulmer -13 -2 +14 -6 Obviously I haven't bothered with the league info again, or whether they were on championship winning teams, or bottom of the league teams, or whether they moved between teams mid season, or were injured, whether they played on the PP or PK, or if they were playing a utility role because I don't want that to get in the way of the pure science of the +/-. But now you've got the info I'm sure we will look forwards to seeing how you worked it out. There's clearly much to learn from the +/- that's hidden from the rest of us in such stats... 🧐🤔
|
|
|
Post by bobness on Apr 1, 2024 12:55:44 GMT
+/- clearly doesn't tell you all that much on its own. It's like a gateway stat...
On a team like the Ontario in 2018-19, where its GD was -61 (second worst in the entire AHL) it's no great wonder they pretty much all struggled. That said, Kurtis Mcdermid managed to play 48 games and end up with +8. That's Kurtis Mcdermid who's been in the NHL ever since that season. Coincidence?
I'd probably tend to use +/- in a relative sense. Who is the best of a bad bunch, or the worst of a good one? It tells you little without ice time ((per 60 normalises and corrects for varied GP and TOI) Tetlow best at +/- per 60 this season), can be skewed by low GP, specific role played, and of course depends on who you play with. Some players are just worth having even if that stat is a bit iffy. Ling, for example. Never a great defensive forward, shall we say. Barely a + season on his sheet. Season before his second stint here, at Brampton, 9+32, -33(!), worst on the team (with a -117 GD). Welcomed back with open arms by basically everyone. Iggy didn't say much negative then. Presumably he knew then that it was a blunt tool and not to be used in that sense.
|
|
|
Post by blackandgold73 on Apr 1, 2024 13:36:34 GMT
+/- clearly doesn't tell you all that much on its own. It's like a gateway stat... On a team like the Ontario in 2018-19, where its GD was -61 (second worst in the entire AHL) it's no great wonder they pretty much all struggled. That said, Kurtis Mcdermid managed to play 48 games and end up with +8. That's Kurtis Mcdermid who's been in the NHL ever since that season. Coincidence? I'd probably tend to use +/- in a relative sense. Who is the best of a bad bunch, or the worst of a good one? It tells you little without ice time ((per 60 normalises and corrects for varied GP and TOI) Tetlow best at +/- per 60 this season), can be skewed by low GP, specific role played, and of course depends on who you play with. Some players are just worth having even if that stat is a bit iffy. Ling, for example. Never a great defensive forward, shall we say. Barely a + season on his sheet. Season before his second stint here, at Brampton, 9+32, -33(!), worst on the team (with a -117 GD). Welcomed back with open arms by basically everyone. Iggy didn't say much negative then. Presumably he knew then that it was a blunt tool and not to be used in that sense. Exactly. Without context as you say (teammates, league position, role, TOI, GP) it's at best opaque and at worst can even be misleading. As your analysis earlier in the thread proved Bob. At best it tells a portion of the story...as the example of Spencer Naas's 0 +/- rating this season demonstrates. But if, on the other hand, you've already decided on the full story ahead of time then I guess +/- can become useful as another case of 'lies, damn lies and statistics' as the saying goes
|
|