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Post by ashfieldpanther on Aug 7, 2023 12:07:25 GMT
www.thestar.co.uk/sport/ice-hockey/what-sheffield-steelers-had-to-fork-out-to-buy-their-new-farm-team-4245131so what do we think of this. A number of questions come to mind. What do Steelers hope to gain from it. Steeldogs can't be profitable organisation, I doubt any of the NIHL teams are. I can't see any playing benefit from it. people talk about 'creating a pipeline' but the gulf between NIHL and EIHL is so big, that if if you haven't been identified as having potential by age 16, then they can't be using Steeldogs to help players get playing time. Is it to try and tap into Steeldogs fanbase to lure them over to Steelers. I just can't see the benefit.
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Post by Jono Bullard on Aug 7, 2023 12:38:11 GMT
www.thestar.co.uk/sport/ice-hockey/what-sheffield-steelers-had-to-fork-out-to-buy-their-new-farm-team-4245131so what do we think of this. A number of questions come to mind. What do Steelers hope to gain from it. Steeldogs can't be profitable organisation, I doubt any of the NIHL teams are. I can't see any playing benefit from it. people talk about 'creating a pipeline' but the gulf between NIHL and EIHL is so big, that if if you haven't been identified as having potential by age 16, then they can't be using Steeldogs to help players get playing time. Is it to try and tap into Steeldogs fanbase to lure them over to Steelers. I just can't see the benefit. I talked about this on a Twitter thread on Friday. Reproduced in full below: "The below is my own personal opinion, and it may surprise a few, but I see Sheffield Steelers buying Sheffield Steeledogsas a huge positive and a move I am all for.
Some may remember when I used to do the weekly hockey chat, I often talked about EIHL teams setting up Under 23 teams to aid development. What I think this move does is take that idea one step further by actually creating a clear pathway from the National League to the Elite League for the Steelers/Steeldogs organisation.
This is something I would love to see happen with all teams creating partnerships. Ideally, I'd like to see a National League team and an EIHL team under the same ownership but I appreciate that isn't going to be possible without a lot of ownership changes, but that doesn't stop proper partnerships being put in place between National League and EIHL teams where players could move up and down between clubs. This will probably now happen in Sheffield with the clubs being under the same ownership umbrella.
Personally, think it creates an excellent development pathway where Steeldogs Brits can have genuine ambition to play in the Elite League for the Steelers. the opportunity is now there and much easier for them to obtain.
I appreciate that there is some understandable scepticism, especially in light of what Tony Smith has said in the past about British players. However, he has said that this move is for British development. Now is his chance to prove it to those who are sceptical.
To conclude my rambling, a hugely positive move for me and I hope the first of many." |
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Post by ashfieldpanther on Aug 7, 2023 13:01:51 GMT
Fair enough. But in reality, how many of the supposedly cash strapped EIHL team owners, of whom some struggle from season to season, penny pinch on player expenditure and contract terms, cut back on travel expenditure to the detriment of comfort, how many of these are going to think long term about GB player development and the benefits of not continually funding the over valued Brits on the merry go round in search of a higher contract. There seems to have been an increase in the number of ex Canada/USA trained Brits coming back, having completed their education and looking for opportunities.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Aug 7, 2023 13:12:54 GMT
www.thestar.co.uk/sport/ice-hockey/what-sheffield-steelers-had-to-fork-out-to-buy-their-new-farm-team-4245131so what do we think of this. A number of questions come to mind. What do Steelers hope to gain from it. Steeldogs can't be profitable organisation, I doubt any of the NIHL teams are. I can't see any playing benefit from it. people talk about 'creating a pipeline' but the gulf between NIHL and EIHL is so big, that if if you haven't been identified as having potential by age 16, then they can't be using Steeldogs to help players get playing time. Is it to try and tap into Steeldogs fanbase to lure them over to Steelers. I just can't see the benefit. I talked about this on a Twitter thread on Friday. Reproduced in full below: "The below is my own personal opinion, and it may surprise a few, but I see Sheffield Steelers buying Sheffield Steeledogsas a huge positive and a move I am all for.
Some may remember when I used to do the weekly hockey chat, I often talked about EIHL teams setting up Under 23 teams to aid development. What I think this move does is take that idea one step further by actually creating a clear pathway from the National League to the Elite League for the Steelers/Steeldogs organisation.
This is something I would love to see happen with all teams creating partnerships. Ideally, I'd like to see a National League team and an EIHL team under the same ownership but I appreciate that isn't going to be possible without a lot of ownership changes, but that doesn't stop proper partnerships being put in place between National League and EIHL teams where players could move up and down between clubs. This will probably now happen in Sheffield with the clubs being under the same ownership umbrella.
Personally, think it creates an excellent development pathway where Steeldogs Brits can have genuine ambition to play in the Elite League for the Steelers. the opportunity is now there and much easier for them to obtain.
I appreciate that there is some understandable scepticism, especially in light of what Tony Smith has said in the past about British players. However, he has said that this move is for British development. Now is his chance to prove it to those who are sceptical.
To conclude my rambling, a hugely positive move for me and I hope the first of many."When I heard about this a few weeks ago (when it was originally rejected), I could see the HUGE benefits on a number of levels. Sheffield are years ahead with their thinking here and a big step forward for UK ice hockey and more importantly for them the Steelers themselves. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2023 13:31:47 GMT
Let's be honest steelers have stumbled across this scenario because of planet ice wanting to buy them out .. I doubt it was ever planned tbh
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Post by texpef on Aug 7, 2023 14:40:20 GMT
I talked about this on a Twitter thread on Friday. Reproduced in full below: "The below is my own personal opinion, and it may surprise a few, but I see Sheffield Steelers buying Sheffield Steeledogsas a huge positive and a move I am all for.
Some may remember when I used to do the weekly hockey chat, I often talked about EIHL teams setting up Under 23 teams to aid development. What I think this move does is take that idea one step further by actually creating a clear pathway from the National League to the Elite League for the Steelers/Steeldogs organisation.
This is something I would love to see happen with all teams creating partnerships. Ideally, I'd like to see a National League team and an EIHL team under the same ownership but I appreciate that isn't going to be possible without a lot of ownership changes, but that doesn't stop proper partnerships being put in place between National League and EIHL teams where players could move up and down between clubs. This will probably now happen in Sheffield with the clubs being under the same ownership umbrella.
Personally, think it creates an excellent development pathway where Steeldogs Brits can have genuine ambition to play in the Elite League for the Steelers. the opportunity is now there and much easier for them to obtain.
I appreciate that there is some understandable scepticism, especially in light of what Tony Smith has said in the past about British players. However, he has said that this move is for British development. Now is his chance to prove it to those who are sceptical.
To conclude my rambling, a hugely positive move for me and I hope the first of many."When I heard about this a few weeks ago (when it was originally rejected), I could see the HUGE benefits on a number of levels. Sheffield are years ahead with their thinking here and a big step forward for UK ice hockey and more importantly for them the Steelers themselves. All good and i see nothing but benefits for this however when was the last time that a senior brit actually developed in sheffield and them not buying in from other clubs? |
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Aug 7, 2023 16:53:45 GMT
When I heard about this a few weeks ago (when it was originally rejected), I could see the HUGE benefits on a number of levels. Sheffield are years ahead with their thinking here and a big step forward for UK ice hockey and more importantly for them the Steelers themselves. All good and i see nothing but benefits for this however when was the last time that a senior brit actually developed in sheffield and them not buying in from other clubs? Like Liam Kirk you mean? |
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yeti
Robert Lachowicz
Posts: 416
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Post by yeti on Aug 7, 2023 17:51:38 GMT
Think if more teams do tie ups with NIHL teams to help develop British players then the elite league would have to look at the limit on player registrations it has at the moment. As it stands no team is going to have more than a couple of two way players. With injuries throughout a season a club could have a few young Brit players slot in as and when needed from a second team but not as it stands at the moment.
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Post by texpef on Aug 8, 2023 7:36:35 GMT
All good and i see nothing but benefits for this however when was the last time that a senior brit actually developed in sheffield and them not buying in from other clubs? Like Liam Kirk you mean? All teams can quote one.... |
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Post by ashfieldpanther on Aug 8, 2023 11:34:36 GMT
All teams can quote one.... Or Cole Shudra, or Alex Graham (RIP) |
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Post by DonClaneone on Aug 8, 2023 11:38:04 GMT
What can be done to have better player development?
I mean I've heard people say the EIHL isn't a developmental league but how else can we make it more attractive for younger talent to stop playing at a level they are miles ahead of and get them playing a higher standard of hockey, what about an EIHL 2 with new teams playing out of existing venues with promotion and relegation between it and the EIHL.
Then you could have a farm system in a revamped NIHL.
The new NIHL would be regional 4 Conference set up of England, Scotland, Ireland & Wales. Each Conference plays its own schedule then you have the Champions & runner up of each meet in the Playoffs, England vs Wales & Scotland vs Ireland, this is done to cut down on travel. Then you have a Finals Weekend at a central venue
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Fez
Lorne Smith
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Post by Fez on Aug 8, 2023 12:01:43 GMT
I'm with Jono insofar as wanting there to be a clear, excellent development pathway for British players through to the ELite League (and ideally beyond).
What's not clear to me yet is how common ownership of clubs at different levels helps achieve this.
The thrust of the OP was how does it help the Steelers - a good question.
The rest of the thread understandably focuses on how does this help the players - another good question.
I need my hand holding to understand the answers to both. How does the pathway look any clearer, or any better with Steeldogs owner by Smith than by the previous owner, or by Planet Ice, or by anyone else - when considering the existing structures?
The problem as I see it is the Elite League owners have settled on consistently high, and increasing, imprt numbers. Whether this is the 'right' decision is perhaps a separate debate but whilst present the player pathway has some big, locked gates at the end.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Aug 8, 2023 12:12:36 GMT
I'm with Jono insofar as wanting there to be a clear, excellent development pathway for British players through to the ELite League (and ideally beyond). What's not clear to me yet is how common ownership of clubs at different levels helps achieve this. The thrust of the OP was how does it help the Steelers - a good question. The rest of the thread understandably focuses on how does this help the players - another good question. I need my hand holding to understand the answers to both. How does the pathway look any clearer, or any better with Steeldogs owner by Smith than by the previous owner, or by Planet Ice, or by anyone else - when considering the existing structures? The problem as I see it is the Elite League owners have settled on consistently high, and increasing, imprt numbers. Whether this is the 'right' decision is perhaps a separate debate but whilst present the player pathway has some big, locked gates at the end. It will be a long time because of COVID until the import level drops and I would much rather Brits were developed on a feeder team than warming the bench somewhere. It would also be good for players returning from injury and apart from that just being part of an EIHL team than the amateur shambles it is at the moment. I applaud the Sheffield set up and forward thinking ownership and just how far they have have come over the years. Didn’t we get some absolute guff a while back about being closer to the Lions? Or did they mean we would just nick their netminder when the Panthers were desperate? |
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Post by awooga on Aug 8, 2023 18:17:50 GMT
All well and good developing talent, but as contracts seem only to be for a season then your investment could just walk to a rival at the end of a season.
Much as there is the desire to grow your own, I don’t see the financial benefit in doing it.
Unless there is a club benefit in doing it, why would they?
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Post by Wolves 66 on Aug 9, 2023 10:18:14 GMT
I'm with Jono insofar as wanting there to be a clear, excellent development pathway for British players through to the ELite League (and ideally beyond). What's not clear to me yet is how common ownership of clubs at different levels helps achieve this. The thrust of the OP was how does it help the Steelers - a good question. The rest of the thread understandably focuses on how does this help the players - another good question. I need my hand holding to understand the answers to both. How does the pathway look any clearer, or any better with Steeldogs owner by Smith than by the previous owner, or by Planet Ice, or by anyone else - when considering the existing structures? The problem as I see it is the Elite League owners have settled on consistently high, and increasing, imprt numbers. Whether this is the 'right' decision is perhaps a separate debate but whilst present the player pathway has some big, locked gates at the end. It will be a long time because of COVID until the import level drops and I would much rather Brits were developed on a feeder team than warming the bench somewhere. It would also be good for players returning from injury and apart from that just being part of an EIHL team than the amateur shambles it is at the moment. I applaud the Sheffield set up and forward thinking ownership and just how far they have have come over the years. Didn’t we get some absolute guff a while back about being closer to the Lions? Or did they mean we would just nick their netminder when the Panthers were desperate? I'm not sure it is absolute guff. Both Dave Whistle and Gary Graham spent time with the Lions team at training sessions with Dave doing some coaching. Some of the Lions players have had opportunities to train with the Panthers. Matt Darlow (goalkeeper coach) is involved with both organisations. One of the Lions players is involved as behind the scenes staff at Panthers. And "nicking their netminder when the Panthers are desperate" is rather dumbing down the fact that Bloor and Sheldon regularly backed up last season allowing more import players to ice. Further to that they were training with the team which developed them further. Put it into context though, The Lions are two leagues down from the Panthers. This is very different to Steeldogs who are part of the semi-pro National League |
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Post by Wolves 66 on Aug 9, 2023 10:25:12 GMT
Let's be honest steelers have stumbled across this scenario because of planet ice wanting to buy them out .. I doubt it was ever planned tbh Where has this come from? Sounds like an unsubstantiated rumour. I have followed this situation closely and haven't once seen any suggestion that Planet Ice wanted to buy the Dogs |
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Post by Jono Bullard on Aug 9, 2023 10:30:50 GMT
It will be a long time because of COVID until the import level drops and I would much rather Brits were developed on a feeder team than warming the bench somewhere. It would also be good for players returning from injury and apart from that just being part of an EIHL team than the amateur shambles it is at the moment. I applaud the Sheffield set up and forward thinking ownership and just how far they have have come over the years. Didn’t we get some absolute guff a while back about being closer to the Lions? Or did they mean we would just nick their netminder when the Panthers were desperate? I'm not sure it is absolute guff. Both Dave Whistle and Gary Graham spent time with the Lions team at training sessions with Dave doing some coaching. Some of the Lions players have had opportunities to train with the Panthers. Matt Darlow (goalkeeper coach) is involved with both organisations. One of the Lions players is involved as behind the scenes staff at Panthers. And "nicking their netminder when the Panthers are desperate" is rather dumbing down the fact that Bloor and Sheldon regularly backed up last season allowing more import players to ice. Further to that they were training with the team which developed them further. Put it into context though, The Lions are two leagues down from the Panthers. This is very different to Steeldogs who are part of the semi-pro National League I wish I could like this more than once. |
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Post by kievthegreat on Aug 10, 2023 12:02:28 GMT
Let's be honest steelers have stumbled across this scenario because of planet ice wanting to buy them out .. I doubt it was ever planned tbh Where has this come from? Sounds like an unsubstantiated rumour. I have followed this situation closely and haven't once seen any suggestion that Planet Ice wanted to buy the Dogs So there were a LOT of rumours flying around before this deal that Steeldogs might not be allowed to compete in the NIHL National Division with varying reasons. One that I saw was that Planet Ice were interested in taking on Ice Sheffield from the council and that they wanted the Steeldogs with. I never saw anything to substantiate this (nor did I with any rumour TBF), but it seems to hinge on the idea that Planet Ice like to run ice rinks and Sheffield council wanted shot of the rink (Plausible, but no evidence AFAIK) and that Planet Ice are already involved in the running of several NIHL National teams, so why not have another. The further (crazier) add-on to this is that Planet Ice were threatening to ramp up ice time prices of clubs in their rinks (a significant proportion of the league) if they didn't block the Steelers buyout. |
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