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Post by blackandgold73 on Jan 13, 2022 19:29:35 GMT
Unfair, I'm afraid. You try keeping a business afloat that has effectively near zero income for 18 months, yet still has most (if not all) of the fixed costs. Fixed costs are just that; fixed. There's no such thing as fixed revenue at the NIC, I'd imagine. I suspect Mel Egglenton has forgotten more about business than you or I will ever know. I could be wrong but hasn't it been losing money for years? It lost over £700,000 the year before: "The £3.9m losses reported by Nottingham Ice Centre Limited is more than five times higher than the previous year of £718,744"
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Post by blackandgold73 on Jan 13, 2022 19:40:42 GMT
Unfair, I'm afraid. You try keeping a business afloat that has effectively near zero income for 18 months, yet still has most (if not all) of the fixed costs. Fixed costs are just that; fixed. There's no such thing as fixed revenue at the NIC, I'd imagine. I suspect Mel Egglenton has forgotten more about business than you or I will ever know. And how’s it still got all the costs if it’s closed and they’ve either made all the staff redundant or furloughed them. And did they leave all the lights on just to waste electricity etc then ? Saying the NIC has most or all of the costs when it’s closed is like saying Panthers have the same costs when they’re not playing as they do when they have a team in place and they are playing. Iggy, I imagine there is a very good chance they're still servicing the debt of building the arena. That will be a fixed cost regardless of whether they're open or closed. As I imagine the Panthers aren't servicing a debt burden then yes their costs will be lower without players. But an arena with a debt burden has that fixed cost always whether income is coming in or not Given that the £7 million loan they've just been given is expected to be paid off over the next 15 years that suggests to me that a) they likely still have a substantial existing debt burden to service if they needed that much to stay afloat and still record a huge loss and b) finding an additional £500,000 a year to pay back this new loan will potentially mean even more games moving in coming years if promoters want to book the arena. They'll need to take all the bookings they can get, and already say that have many more than normal for the next couple of years
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Jan 13, 2022 20:23:06 GMT
And how’s it still got all the costs if it’s closed and they’ve either made all the staff redundant or furloughed them. And did they leave all the lights on just to waste electricity etc then ? Saying the NIC has most or all of the costs when it’s closed is like saying Panthers have the same costs when they’re not playing as they do when they have a team in place and they are playing. Iggy, I imagine there is a very good chance they're still servicing the debt of building the arena. That will be a fixed cost regardless of whether they're open or closed. As I imagine the Panthers aren't servicing a debt burden then yes their costs will be lower without players. But an arena with a debt burden has that fixed cost always whether income is coming in or not Given that the £7 million loan they've just been given is expected to be paid off over the next 15 years that suggests to me that a) they likely still have a substantial existing debt burden to service if they needed that much to stay afloat and still record a huge loss and b) finding an additional £500,000 a year to pay back this new loan will potentially mean even more games moving in coming years if promoters want to book the arena. They'll need to take all the bookings they can get, and already say that have many more than normal for the next couple of years Yes yes I understand all that,I ran my own businesses for 29 years. But a business that employs a lot of staff and probably uses a fair bit of electricity etc does not have the same costs as one which has hardly any staff left with the doors locked and the lights off. If they’re losing money every year then they need to do something about it otherwise Blacky won’t have an arena to play in soon. Having said that,these sort of places always get bailed out from somewhere so I don’t think it’ll be closing down anytime soon.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 13, 2022 21:33:12 GMT
And how’s it still got all the costs if it’s closed and they’ve either made all the staff redundant or furloughed them. And did they leave all the lights on just to waste electricity etc then ? Saying the NIC has most or all of the costs when it’s closed is like saying Panthers have the same costs when they’re not playing as they do when they have a team in place and they are playing. Iggy, I imagine there is a very good chance they're still servicing the debt of building the arena. That will be a fixed cost regardless of whether they're open or closed. As I imagine the Panthers aren't servicing a debt burden then yes their costs will be lower without players. But an arena with a debt burden has that fixed cost always whether income is coming in or not Given that the £7 million loan they've just been given is expected to be paid off over the next 15 years that suggests to me that a) they likely still have a substantial existing debt burden to service if they needed that much to stay afloat and still record a huge loss and b) finding an additional £500,000 a year to pay back this new loan will potentially mean even more games moving in coming years if promoters want to book the arena. They'll need to take all the bookings they can get, and already say that have many more than normal for the next couple of years They won’t pay that back. The NIC is very VERY badly run. It’s possibly the most inefficient business I’ve come across in over 50 years
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Post by bobness on Jan 14, 2022 9:48:46 GMT
Iggy, I imagine there is a very good chance they're still servicing the debt of building the arena. That will be a fixed cost regardless of whether they're open or closed. As I imagine the Panthers aren't servicing a debt burden then yes their costs will be lower without players. But an arena with a debt burden has that fixed cost always whether income is coming in or not Given that the £7 million loan they've just been given is expected to be paid off over the next 15 years that suggests to me that a) they likely still have a substantial existing debt burden to service if they needed that much to stay afloat and still record a huge loss and b) finding an additional £500,000 a year to pay back this new loan will potentially mean even more games moving in coming years if promoters want to book the arena. They'll need to take all the bookings they can get, and already say that have many more than normal for the next couple of years Yes yes I understand all that,I ran my own businesses for 29 years. But a business that employs a lot of staff and probably uses a fair bit of electricity etc does not have the same costs as one which has hardly any staff left with the doors locked and the lights off. If they’re losing money every year then they need to do something about it otherwise Blacky won’t have an arena to play in soon. Having said that,these sort of places always get bailed out from somewhere so I don’t think it’ll be closing down anytime soon. It doesn't have the same costs , no, but it still has some. Read the 21 accounts. Revenue down 85%, costs down 60%. CJRS covered only 60% of staff costs in total. Hundreds of staff were made redundant and have somehow had to be re-hired. Depreciation was £750k, that doesn't stop (it actually got bigger in the year) There's now an extra £300k or so interest to pay. You being a businessman will know that isn't a good start. Assuming your business was running an arena, or you're a director of the Arena, you'll be bang on the button, though. If not, you're clutching at straws to suit your agenda.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Jan 14, 2022 10:28:59 GMT
Yes yes I understand all that,I ran my own businesses for 29 years. But a business that employs a lot of staff and probably uses a fair bit of electricity etc does not have the same costs as one which has hardly any staff left with the doors locked and the lights off. If they’re losing money every year then they need to do something about it otherwise Blacky won’t have an arena to play in soon. Having said that,these sort of places always get bailed out from somewhere so I don’t think it’ll be closing down anytime soon. It doesn't have the same costs , no, but it still has some. Read the 21 accounts. Revenue down 85%, costs down 60%. CJRS covered only 60% of staff costs in total. Hundreds of staff were made redundant and have somehow had to be re-hired. Depreciation was £750k, that doesn't stop (it actually got bigger in the year) There's now an extra £300k or so interest to pay. You being a businessman will know that isn't a good start. Assuming your business was running an arena, or you're a director of the Arena, you'll be bang on the button, though. If not, you're clutching at straws to suit your agenda. Of course it still has some costs. Overall though it doesn’t change the fact that the NIC is primarily a sports venue and far be it from me to stick up for Panthers but the sport element should come first. Have we ever heard of the date for some smaller scale show being moved because U2 or Coldplay wanted a certain date,no I can’t recall that happening either,but it happens too often with the hockey being moved because the NIC take the pisss. Whether the NIC makes money or not,frankly I don’t give a damn,these sort of places always seem to get bailed out with some sort of loan,grant or whatever whereas a private company that was run as badly and lost loads of money would just be left to go bust and get closed down. Mrs Thatcher had the right idea !
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 14, 2022 10:36:22 GMT
It doesn't have the same costs , no, but it still has some. Read the 21 accounts. Revenue down 85%, costs down 60%. CJRS covered only 60% of staff costs in total. Hundreds of staff were made redundant and have somehow had to be re-hired. Depreciation was £750k, that doesn't stop (it actually got bigger in the year) There's now an extra £300k or so interest to pay. You being a businessman will know that isn't a good start. Assuming your business was running an arena, or you're a director of the Arena, you'll be bang on the button, though. If not, you're clutching at straws to suit your agenda. Of course it still has some costs. Overall though it doesn’t change the fact that the NIC is primarily a sports venue and far be it from me to stick up for Panthers but the sport element should come first. Have we ever heard of the date for some smaller scale show being moved because U2 or Coldplay wanted a certain date,no I can’t recall that happening either,but it happens too often with the hockey being moved because the NIC take the pisss. Whether the NIC makes money or not,frankly I don’t give a damn,these sort of places always seem to get bailed out with some sort of loan,grant or whatever whereas a private company that was run as badly and lost loads of money would just be left to go bust and get closed down. Mrs Thatcher had the right idea ! I believe the council has bailed the NIC out for years?
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Post by bobness on Jan 14, 2022 11:30:50 GMT
Of course it still has some costs. Overall though it doesn’t change the fact that the NIC is primarily a sports venue and far be it from me to stick up for Panthers but the sport element should come first. Have we ever heard of the date for some smaller scale show being moved because U2 or Coldplay wanted a certain date,no I can’t recall that happening either,but it happens too often with the hockey being moved because the NIC take the pisss. Whether the NIC makes money or not,frankly I don’t give a damn,these sort of places always seem to get bailed out with some sort of loan,grant or whatever whereas a private company that was run as badly and lost loads of money would just be left to go bust and get closed down. Mrs Thatcher had the right idea ! I believe the council has bailed the NIC out for years? It has to, that's what it signed up for. Page 1 of the 21 accounts refers. 10 years ago, these numbers were south of £200k a year, in grant form. It seems to be only recently these numbers have been bigger, made up of loans rather than grants. I suspect iggy's right, it won't fail (bit like the tram) but it's a big unknown for the City Council to financially manage if it doesn't manage to wash its own face. Maybe the management at the arena have been instructed to play some harder ball in future, as it were?
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 14, 2022 11:51:37 GMT
I believe the council has bailed the NIC out for years? It has to, that's what it signed up for. Page 1 of the 21 accounts refers. 10 years ago, these numbers were south of £200k a year, in grant form. It seems to be only recently these numbers have been bigger, made up of loans rather than grants. I suspect iggy's right, it won't fail (bit like the tram) but it's a big unknown for the City Council to financially manage if it doesn't manage to wash its own face. Maybe the management at the arena have been instructed to play some harder ball in future, as it were? I know that up until a few years back it employed an absolutely HUGE number of staff (an absolutely astronomic number of staff) and if you spend a lot of time there (I was unfortunate enough to spend a week at a time) the place is pretty typical of anything run on hand-outs. Inefficiency like I have never known before and an air about the place that it's not in the commercial world at all. The place has a pretty much set revenue stream in that (pre covid) it could host a set number of events a year at a set price and yet it's never come even close to even breaking even back in the good days. Just on a typical paying customer level, you see the lethargic ticket staff and even the slow as wood concession staff. That's just not how a commercial business has to work. The amount of office staff wandering around is baffling and all of the time the paying customer is a nuisance rather than a customer. I think in the early years the place was simply run by the wrong people and it was never seen as a profit-making business and that culture is now set in stone now. Back when I was spending a lot of time there it was obvious that the place needed a complete clear-out and a change of direction. If I had been a rate payer and my money was being tipped into it I wouldn't have been happy at all.
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Post by bobness on Jan 14, 2022 12:19:22 GMT
The vast majority of staff employed at the NIC are casual, for events. I suspect you're in the ball park with the "not really a business" mindset in the early years. Anything that's run by a Council almost automatically has that whiff.
I share your concerns about the "attitude" of some staff, especially the casual staff. I suspect that the food and drink sales could be massively improved by a bit of urgency. You only get two lots of 18 minutes during the game to sell food and drink, you need to be rushed off your feet for all of that time. That doesn't seem to happen, in my experience. Good bar staff serve 3 people at a time. The person you're giving their drink to, the person you're pouring a drink for and the person whose order you're taking. I once counted it took 8 presses on the till to give me back my £1 for my pint glass. That scared me too.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 14, 2022 12:21:23 GMT
The vast majority of staff employed at the NIC are casual, for events. I suspect you're in the ball park with the "not really a business" mindset in the early years. Anything that's run by a Council almost automatically has that whiff. I share your concerns about the "attitude" of some staff, especially the casual staff. I suspect that the food and drink sales could be massively improved by a bit of urgency. You only get two lots of 18 minutes during the game to sell food and drink, you need to be rushed off your feet for all of that time. That doesn't seem to happen, in my experience. Good bar staff serve 3 people at a time. The person you're giving their drink to, the person you're pouring a drink for and the person whose order you're taking. I once counted it took 8 presses on the till to give me back my £1 for my pint glass. That scared me too. Back just a few years ago it had over 200 full time staff
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Post by wgray on Jan 14, 2022 12:30:52 GMT
The vast majority of staff employed at the NIC are casual, for events. I suspect you're in the ball park with the "not really a business" mindset in the early years. Anything that's run by a Council almost automatically has that whiff. I share your concerns about the "attitude" of some staff, especially the casual staff. I suspect that the food and drink sales could be massively improved by a bit of urgency. You only get two lots of 18 minutes during the game to sell food and drink, you need to be rushed off your feet for all of that time. That doesn't seem to happen, in my experience. Good bar staff serve 3 people at a time. The person you're giving their drink to, the person you're pouring a drink for and the person whose order you're taking. I once counted it took 8 presses on the till to give me back my £1 for my pint glass. That scared me too. If the arena employed less staff and set some people on permanently then I think it would improve service drastically. Instead of employing a load of people on 0 hour contracts (I assume) who aren’t experienced, train people, speed it up and make more money.
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Post by bobness on Jan 14, 2022 12:49:14 GMT
Back just a few years ago it had over 200 full time staff That may be right, but the numbers don't seem to stack up? Take 2014. 200 FT staff at an average of let's say £20k each (hardly massive money) would be £4m a year just for them, before the part timers and 0 hours people. The entire wage bill for everyone that year was only just over £3m? In 2015, 383 people were employed on average, and earned an average of <£10k each. 2016 401 people on average still didn't break £4m a year.
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Post by bobness on Jan 14, 2022 12:50:48 GMT
The vast majority of staff employed at the NIC are casual, for events. I suspect you're in the ball park with the "not really a business" mindset in the early years. Anything that's run by a Council almost automatically has that whiff. I share your concerns about the "attitude" of some staff, especially the casual staff. I suspect that the food and drink sales could be massively improved by a bit of urgency. You only get two lots of 18 minutes during the game to sell food and drink, you need to be rushed off your feet for all of that time. That doesn't seem to happen, in my experience. Good bar staff serve 3 people at a time. The person you're giving their drink to, the person you're pouring a drink for and the person whose order you're taking. I once counted it took 8 presses on the till to give me back my £1 for my pint glass. That scared me too. If the arena employed less staff and set some people on permanently then I think it would improve service drastically. Instead of employing a load of people on 0 hour contracts (I assume) who aren’t experienced, train people, speed it up and make more money. I guess the problem with that is they can't offer any guarenteed hours to make them anything other than "casual, as and when" type employees? You might go a couple of weeks without an event, then have 4 in a week, then 2 more weeks free etc etc.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,422
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Post by iginla on Jan 14, 2022 13:58:44 GMT
The vast majority of staff employed at the NIC are casual, for events. I suspect you're in the ball park with the "not really a business" mindset in the early years. Anything that's run by a Council almost automatically has that whiff. I share your concerns about the "attitude" of some staff, especially the casual staff. I suspect that the food and drink sales could be massively improved by a bit of urgency. You only get two lots of 18 minutes during the game to sell food and drink, you need to be rushed off your feet for all of that time. That doesn't seem to happen, in my experience. Good bar staff serve 3 people at a time. The person you're giving their drink to, the person you're pouring a drink for and the person whose order you're taking. I once counted it took 8 presses on the till to give me back my £1 for my pint glass. That scared me too. Back just a few years ago it had over 200 full time staff Bloody hell,what were they doing ! 😳😳
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iginla
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Posts: 13,422
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Post by iginla on Jan 14, 2022 14:04:36 GMT
Back just a few years ago it had over 200 full time staff That may be right, but the numbers don't seem to stack up? Take 2014. 200 FT staff at an average of let's say £20k each (hardly massive money) would be £4m a year just for them, before the part timers and 0 hours people. The entire wage bill for everyone that year was only just over £3m? In 2015, 383 people were employed on average, and earned an average of <£10k each. 2016 401 people on average still didn't break £4m a year. That news article says 1000 casual staff were made redundant,but aren’t those people employed by Showsec which presumably is a separate company to the NIC ?
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Post by bobness on Jan 14, 2022 14:13:40 GMT
That may be right, but the numbers don't seem to stack up? Take 2014. 200 FT staff at an average of let's say £20k each (hardly massive money) would be £4m a year just for them, before the part timers and 0 hours people. The entire wage bill for everyone that year was only just over £3m? In 2015, 383 people were employed on average, and earned an average of <£10k each. 2016 401 people on average still didn't break £4m a year. That news article says 1000 casual staff were made redundant,but aren’t those people employed by Showsec which presumably is a separate company to the NIC ? No, I don't think so. These are just casual staff, I think, employed to staff the arena on event nights. You don't need all of them every night. Showsec people are paid by Showsec, I'd say? Unless the NIC have some sort of licence on the name?
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 14, 2022 14:14:42 GMT
Back just a few years ago it had over 200 full time staff Bloody hell,what were they doing ! 😳😳 When I was there? Absolutely nothing apart from trying to look busy.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,422
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Post by iginla on Jan 14, 2022 16:59:14 GMT
That news article says 1000 casual staff were made redundant,but aren’t those people employed by Showsec which presumably is a separate company to the NIC ? No, I don't think so. These are just casual staff, I think, employed to staff the arena on event nights. You don't need all of them every night. Showsec people are paid by Showsec, I'd say? Unless the NIC have some sort of licence on the name? Well yes that’s what I’d have thought too. But 1000 seems rather excessive to say the least.
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Post by bobness on Jan 14, 2022 18:02:52 GMT
No, I don't think so. These are just casual staff, I think, employed to staff the arena on event nights. You don't need all of them every night. Showsec people are paid by Showsec, I'd say? Unless the NIC have some sort of licence on the name? Well yes that’s what I’d have thought too. But 1000 seems rather excessive to say the least. I did wonder, as the average number they employ isn't 1000, and that makes making 1000 redundant tricky, I'd say. As I've said, I think the vast majority are effectively short term casual workers, working as and when, often on short notice. So they count as an employee, but are nowhere near full time.
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Post by blackandgold73 on Jan 16, 2022 19:02:58 GMT
It doesn't have the same costs , no, but it still has some. Read the 21 accounts. Revenue down 85%, costs down 60%. CJRS covered only 60% of staff costs in total. Hundreds of staff were made redundant and have somehow had to be re-hired. Depreciation was £750k, that doesn't stop (it actually got bigger in the year) There's now an extra £300k or so interest to pay. You being a businessman will know that isn't a good start. Assuming your business was running an arena, or you're a director of the Arena, you'll be bang on the button, though. If not, you're clutching at straws to suit your agenda. whereas a private company that was run as badly and lost loads of money would just be left to go bust and get closed down. Mrs Thatcher had the right idea ! Well let's not mention the banking bailouts then 😉 But I get what you're saying
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