Defending a lead

[ashfieldpanther]

I wonder how many times we've given up a lead to go into OT, had a 2 goal lead and given up a goal in the last few mins, and taken a penalty in the last 2 minutes of the 3rd period to go on the PK. This team seems particularly prone to lapses which have us cost us points. Or does it just stand out more this season.

[The Flying Shirt]

Mar 19, 2018 13:11:57 GMT ashfieldpanther said:

I wonder how many times we've given up a lead to go into OT, had a 2 goal lead and given up a goal in the last few mins, and taken a penalty in the last 2 minutes of the 3rd period to go on the PK. This team seems particularly prone to lapses which have us cost us points. Or does it just stand out more this season.

It's because, without having black and gold glasses on, the teams doing this to us are better than us. We have our moments but when other teams come on strong at the end we are always clinging on for dear breath and you can just see they could score at any moment.

[dill1015]

Mar 19, 2018 15:41:26 GMT The Flying Shirt said:

Mar 19, 2018 13:11:57 GMT ashfieldpanther said:

I wonder how many times we've given up a lead to go into OT, had a 2 goal lead and given up a goal in the last few mins, and taken a penalty in the last 2 minutes of the 3rd period to go on the PK. This team seems particularly prone to lapses which have us cost us points. Or does it just stand out more this season.

It's because, without having black and gold glasses on, the teams doing this to us are better than us. We have our moments but when other teams come on strong at the end we are always clinging on for dear breath and you can just see they could score at any moment.

Its not that simple. We're good enough to get a lead.

I honestly think this team for whatever reason became mentally beat late november. We just dont have any self belief. No idea why it was like a light switch one day.

[The Flying Shirt]

Mar 19, 2018 17:24:58 GMT dill1015 said:

Mar 19, 2018 15:41:26 GMT The Flying Shirt said:

It's because, without having black and gold glasses on, the teams doing this to us are better than us. We have our moments but when other teams come on strong at the end we are always clinging on for dear breath and you can just see they could score at any moment.

Its not that simple. We're good enough to get a lead.

I honestly think this team for whatever reason became mentally beat late november. We just dont have any self belief. No idea why it was like a light switch one day.

I think it is that simple. Pure and simple. Just look at the amount of overtime wins we had too where we couldn't get it done in regulation. Several other teams have got better over the season and I think we had an over inflated view of where we were at. The league table doesn't lie.

[wgray]

Is it down to leadership? Do we have the players with winning experience to take it by the scruff of the neck and pull the team through? Even our most experienced players don’t seem capable of doing it, prime examples last night Derlago should have scored in the empty net and Sauve should have cleared the puck from behind the net, he loses it and they equalise. This season has been a very strange one on the ice.

[endisforever91]

To be fair, you guys spent 40 minutes on the back foot last night, including 1:30 of 5 on 3, and only coughed up a goal with 40 seconds to go and with the extra man. It was more valiant effort than defensive frailty.

[Yotes]

That would suggest

Mar 19, 2018 17:32:34 GMT The Flying Shirt said:

I think we had an over inflated view of where we were at.

is about on the money then.

[iginla]

Mar 19, 2018 19:10:05 GMT Yotes said:

That would suggest

Mar 19, 2018 17:32:34 GMT The Flying Shirt said:

I think we had an over inflated view of where we were at.

is about on the money then.

Yep.
I think if you care to trawl back through news items around the end of November from Panthers,with both players and Corey quoting stuff like "we know how good we are" or "who knows what this team can achieve" etc etc.

That backfired big time didn't it ! Lol 🙄 😂

[mansfieldpanther91]

Mar 19, 2018 17:32:39 GMT wgray said:

Is it down to leadership? Do we have the players with winning experience to take it by the scruff of the neck and pull the team through? Even our most experienced players don’t seem capable of doing it, prime examples last night Derlago should have scored in the empty net and Sauve should have cleared the puck from behind the net, he loses it and they equalise. This season has been a very strange one on the ice.

That's exactly what i think it comes down to. We've got a massive lack of leadership on ice. A lack of heart and desire.

[tootootrain]

Ultimately the team is just not good enough. Don't get me wrong, the individual players have plenty of talent but, as I've said before, Neilson seems to have a rare talent to be able to make the whole less than the sum of its parts.

There is also an institutional malaise which has been a feature of the Panthers organisation for years. The drive of the organisation is purely about generating income. PRs give lip-service about "doing better" but almost every PR is purely the set-up for an advert. We joke about "good tickets still available" but it's such a common feature of the Nottingham Panthers I'm surprised Gary hasn't tried to find a sponsor for it.

Compounding all this is that the players are far too comfortable. There is little pressure on them to perform, Neilson even says it's not his job to motivate his players. What kind of 'leader' says rubbish like that? As long as the players are happy to turn up for whatever money spinner...err...social event Gary Moran dreams up all is good. Hell, regardless of results they'll be brown-nosed by the same old player sponsors season after season, have hundreds bid on their jerseys which are little more than symbols of failure and, you never know, some idiots might chuck chocolate at you.

Sadly Panthers fans have the team they deserve. There is no pressure on the organisation to improve when they know the fans will just return week after week regardless and buy into any old tat Gary Moran can dream up.

[ant]

Mar 19, 2018 21:34:09 GMT tootootrain said:

Ultimately the team is just not good enough. Don't get me wrong, the individual players have plenty of talent but, as I've said before, Neilson seems to have a rare talent to be able to make the whole less than the sum of its parts.

There is also an institutional malaise which has been a feature of the Panthers organisation for years. The drive of the organisation is purely about generating income. PRs give lip-service about "doing better" but almost every PR is purely the set-up for an advert. We joke about "good tickets still available" but it's such a common feature of the Nottingham Panthers I'm surprised Gary hasn't tried to find a sponsor for it.

Compounding all this is that the players are far too comfortable. There is little pressure on them to perform, Neilson even says it's not his job to motivate his players. What kind of 'leader' says rubbish like that? As long as the players are happy to turn up for whatever money spinner...err...social event Gary Moran dreams up all is good. Hell, regardless of results they'll be brown-nosed by the same old player sponsors season after season, have hundreds bid on their jerseys which are little more than symbols of failure and, you never know, some idiots might chuck chocolate at you.

Sadly Panthers fans have the team they deserve. There is no pressure on the organisation to improve when they know the fans will just return week after week regardless and buy into any old tat Gary Moran can dream up.

That about sums it up. As long as 5000 plus paying customers turn up nobody in the club cares. The thing is alienating the true fans year on year is gonna catch up with us, then Black can bail us out for another 10 years by buying the league. Real management teams make sure their teams always compete for all the silverware. We are a laughing stock. If Black doesn't care about that he should clear off...

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2018 21:34:09 GMT tootootrain said:

Ultimately the team is just not good enough. Don't get me wrong, the individual players have plenty of talent but, as I've said before, Neilson seems to have a rare talent to be able to make the whole less than the sum of its parts.

There is also an institutional malaise which has been a feature of the Panthers organisation for years. The drive of the organisation is purely about generating income. PRs give lip-service about "doing better" but almost every PR is purely the set-up for an advert. We joke about "good tickets still available" but it's such a common feature of the Nottingham Panthers I'm surprised Gary hasn't tried to find a sponsor for it.

Compounding all this is that the players are far too comfortable. There is little pressure on them to perform, Neilson even says it's not his job to motivate his players. What kind of 'leader' says rubbish like that? As long as the players are happy to turn up for whatever money spinner...err...social event Gary Moran dreams up all is good. Hell, regardless of results they'll be brown-nosed by the same old player sponsors season after season, have hundreds bid on their jerseys which are little more than symbols of failure and, you never know, some idiots might chuck chocolate at you.

Sadly Panthers fans have the team they deserve. There is no pressure on the organisation to improve when they know the fans will just return week after week regardless and buy into any old tat Gary Moran can dream up.

Spot on ! When this org takes the league championship seriously I ll take them seriously.

[Rob Scott]

Mar 19, 2018 22:20:04 GMT @pidge said:

Mar 19, 2018 21:34:09 GMT tootootrain said:

Ultimately the team is just not good enough. Don't get me wrong, the individual players have plenty of talent but, as I've said before, Neilson seems to have a rare talent to be able to make the whole less than the sum of its parts.

There is also an institutional malaise which has been a feature of the Panthers organisation for years. The drive of the organisation is purely about generating income. PRs give lip-service about "doing better" but almost every PR is purely the set-up for an advert. We joke about "good tickets still available" but it's such a common feature of the Nottingham Panthers I'm surprised Gary hasn't tried to find a sponsor for it.

Compounding all this is that the players are far too comfortable. There is little pressure on them to perform, Neilson even says it's not his job to motivate his players. What kind of 'leader' says rubbish like that? As long as the players are happy to turn up for whatever money spinner...err...social event Gary Moran dreams up all is good. Hell, regardless of results they'll be brown-nosed by the same old player sponsors season after season, have hundreds bid on their jerseys which are little more than symbols of failure and, you never know, some idiots might chuck chocolate at you.

Sadly Panthers fans have the team they deserve. There is no pressure on the organisation to improve when they know the fans will just return week after week regardless and buy into any old tat Gary Moran can dream up.

Spot on ! When this org takes the league championship seriously I ll take them seriously.

The league is and always has been our main focus.....

[tootootrain]

Mar 19, 2018 22:47:08 GMT Rob Scott said:

The league is and always has been our main focus.....

Neil Black's very own donation to the post-truth era.

[ted logan]

Mar 19, 2018 22:47:08 GMT Rob Scott said:

Mar 19, 2018 22:20:04 GMT @pidge said:

Spot on ! When this org takes the league championship seriously I ll take them seriously.

The league is and always has been our main focus.....

Laser focus this season

[Mark]

All the above is sadly true. The number of fans who think Neilson is still the best thing since sliced bread and should be offered a new contract is staggering. These 'real fans' are manna from Heaven for Moran and Black. Those who see the situation as it is, generally longer standing fans are slowly dwindling away, having no more stomach for the unending spin and underperformance.
The result will be a Panthers fanbase with the lowest hockey IQ in the league. Fodder for the club to bleed white.

[Deleted]

Mar 20, 2018 10:24:48 GMT Mark said:

All the above is sadly true. The number of fans who think Neilson is still the best thing since sliced bread and should be offered a new contract is staggering. These 'real fans' are manna from Heaven for Moran and Black. Those who see the situation as it is, generally longer standing fans are slowly dwindling away, having no more stomach for the unending spin and underperformance.
The result will be a Panthers fanbase with the lowest hockey IQ in the league. Fodder for the club to bleed white.

Panthers fans were once seen as the most knowledgeable in the league .. How times change eh. I'm still seeing some say Neilson should stay .. the mind really does boggle

[iginla]

Mar 20, 2018 10:26:37 GMT @pidge said:

Mar 20, 2018 10:24:48 GMT Mark said:

All the above is sadly true. The number of fans who think Neilson is still the best thing since sliced bread and should be offered a new contract is staggering. These 'real fans' are manna from Heaven for Moran and Black. Those who see the situation as it is, generally longer standing fans are slowly dwindling away, having no more stomach for the unending spin and underperformance.
The result will be a Panthers fanbase with the lowest hockey IQ in the league. Fodder for the club to bleed white.

Panthers fans were once seen as the most knowledgeable in the league .. How times change eh. I'm still seeing some say Neilson should stay .. the mind really does boggle

Neilson stay haha.....No.
I’m just hoping he ends up somewhere at a low/mid table team who are not a “big fish” with financial advantages in their league like he had at Panthers.

Then let’s see what he wins ! 😂 Lol

[DJP]

To return to the original subject of the thread, here are some stats (from League matches only) regarding our propensity to give up a lead, often a healthy one:

29.9 v Coventry: 4-1 up. Coventry then scored at 44.37 and 57.23 PP (Billingsley 57.00). Result 4-3 (W)
23.9 v Braehead: 2-1 up. Braehead recovered to 2-4 in second, then scored at 58.46. Result 3-5 (L)
24.9 v Guildford: 2-0 up. Guildford then scored at 43.49 and 59.41. Result 3-2 SO (W)
27.9 v Belfast: 3-1 and 4-2 up. Belfast recovered to 4-4. Result 5-4 (W)
14.10 v Sheffield: 3-1 up. Sheffield recovered to 3-3, scoring at 58.16 PP (Sauvé 57.01). Result 4-3 SO (W)
29.10 v Coventry: 2-0 and 3-1 up. Coventry recovered to 3-2. Result 3-2 (W)
4.11 v MK: 4-1 up. MK recovered to 4-3. Result 5-3 (W)
15.11 v Belfast: 4-2 up. Belfast then scored at 41.00 and 48.39. Result 5-4 OT (W)
26.11 v Fife: 3-0 and 4-1 up. Fife then recovered to 4-4, scoring at 53.41 and 58.51 EA. Result 4-5 OT (L)
16.12 v Manchester: 1-0 up but lost in OT at 60.51 PP (Sauvé 60.29). Result 1-2 OT (L)
17.12 v Belfast: 2-1 up but conceded five straight. Result 2-6 (L)
30.12 v Coventry: 3-1 up. Cov recovered to 3-3. Panthers GWG at 57.06. Phillips pen 58.10. Result 4-3 (W)
6.1 v Manchester: 3-1 up. Manchester recovered to 3-3, scoring at 55.03. Result 4-3 OT (W)
12.1 v Belfast: 2-1 up, fell to 2-3, then Belfast scored at 54.47 and 59.53 EA. Result 2-5 (L)
20.1 v Coventry: 4-0 and 5-2 up. Cov recovered to 5-4 (59.06); Panthers scored at 59.42 EN. Result 6-4 (W)
27.1 v Belfast: 2-0 up. Belfast recovered to 2-2. Panthers scored at 59.18 EN. Result 4-2 (W)
28.1 v Fife: 1-0 up. Fife GWG at 56.28. Result 2-3 (L)
3.2 v Sheffield: 3-1 up, fell to 3-4, equalised, then Sheff scored at 59.55 PP (Billingsley 58.23). Result 4-5 (L)
18.2 v Braehead: 3-0 up, then conceded at 41.14, 46.23 and 58.25. Result 4-3 OT (W)
24.2 v Fife: 3-2 up, fell to 3-4, then equalised at 58.54 EA. Result 4-5 OT (L)
17.3 v Sheffield: 3-0 up. Sheffield recovered to 3-2. Result 3-2 (L)
18.3 v Manchester: 3-2 up, then conceded at 59.20 EA. Result 3-4 SO (W)

Of these 22 games, we won 13, 7 in regulation time (so all's well that ends well) and 6 in OT/SO (thus gifting the opposition a point). We lost 9 of the games, 6 in regulation (nul point) and 3 in OT (thus salvaging a point). We conceded in the last 2 minutes in 9 of these games and in the last 5 minutes in a further 3 games. Late penalties conceded were arguably not particularly important overall.

In two other games, we fell away despite being close:

10.12 v Guildford: 2-3 down, then conceded twice at 58.43 EN and 59.56 EN. Result 2-5 (L)
10.2 v Sheffield: 0-1 down after 2, then conceded at 41.26, 45.20 and 56.55. Result 0-4 (L)

On the plus side, we recovered from deficits, some large, in 6 games and went on to win 3:

28.10 v MK: 1-3 down, recovered to 3-3 in regulation and won in OT. Result 4-3 OT (W)
19.11 v Cardiff: 2-3 down, recovered to 6-3. Result 7-4 (W)
13.1 v Belfast: 1-3 down, recovered to 4-4 but conceded at 59.38 and 59.44 EN. Result 4-6 (L)
21.1 v MK: 1-3 down, then scored six straight. Result 7-3 (W)
6.3 v Dundee: 0-3 down, recovered to 2-3 but lost despite scoring at 59.09 EA. Result 3-4 (L)
11.3 v Belfast: 1-5 down, recovered to 4-5 but conceded at 59.02 EN. Result 4-6 (L)

That doesn't necessarily answer all of ashfieldpanther's questions in full but, overall, it suggests we haven't been particularly good at holding on to a lead, even a two-goal one, and have tended to give away late goals to our cost.

[ashfieldpanther]

Mar 20, 2018 14:21:00 GMT DJP said:

To return to the original subject of the thread, here are some stats (from League matches only) regarding our propensity to give up a lead, often a healthy one:

29.9 v Coventry: 4-1 up. Coventry then scored at 44.37 and 57.23 PP (Billingsley 57.00). Result 4-3 (W)
23.9 v Braehead: 2-1 up. Braehead recovered to 2-4 in second, then scored at 58.46. Result 3-5 (L)
24.9 v Guildford: 2-0 up. Guildford then scored at 43.49 and 59.41. Result 3-2 SO (W)
27.9 v Belfast: 3-1 and 4-2 up. Belfast recovered to 4-4. Result 5-4 (W)
14.10 v Sheffield: 3-1 up. Sheffield recovered to 3-3, scoring at 58.16 PP (Sauvé 57.01). Result 4-3 SO (W)
29.10 v Coventry: 2-0 and 3-1 up. Coventry recovered to 3-2. Result 3-2 (W)
4.11 v MK: 4-1 up. MK recovered to 4-3. Result 5-3 (W)
15.11 v Belfast: 4-2 up. Belfast then scored at 41.00 and 48.39. Result 5-4 OT (W)
26.11 v Fife: 3-0 and 4-1 up. Fife then recovered to 4-4, scoring at 53.41 and 58.51 EA. Result 4-5 OT (L)
16.12 v Manchester: 1-0 up but lost in OT at 60.51 PP (Sauvé 60.29). Result 1-2 OT (L)
17.12 v Belfast: 2-1 up but conceded five straight. Result 2-6 (L)
30.12 v Coventry: 3-1 up. Cov recovered to 3-3. Panthers GWG at 57.06. Phillips pen 58.10. Result 4-3 (W)
6.1 v Manchester: 3-1 up. Manchester recovered to 3-3, scoring at 55.03. Result 4-3 OT (W)
12.1 v Belfast: 2-1 up, fell to 2-3, then Belfast scored at 54.47 and 59.53 EA. Result 2-5 (L)
20.1 v Coventry: 4-0 and 5-2 up. Cov recovered to 5-4 (59.06); Panthers scored at 59.42 EN. Result 6-4 (W)
27.1 v Belfast: 2-0 up. Belfast recovered to 2-2. Panthers scored at 59.18 EN. Result 4-2 (W)
28.1 v Fife: 1-0 up. Fife GWG at 56.28. Result 2-3 (L)
3.2 v Sheffield: 3-1 up, fell to 3-4, equalised, then Sheff scored at 59.55 PP (Billingsley 58.23). Result 4-5 (L)
18.2 v Braehead: 3-0 up, then conceded at 41.14, 46.23 and 58.25. Result 4-3 OT (W)
24.2 v Fife: 3-2 up, fell to 3-4, then equalised at 58.54 EA. Result 4-5 OT (L)
17.3 v Sheffield: 3-0 up. Sheffield recovered to 3-2. Result 3-2 (L)
18.3 v Manchester: 3-2 up, then conceded at 59.20 EA. Result 3-4 SO (W)

Of these 22 games, we won 13, 7 in regulation time (so all's well that ends well) and 6 in OT/SO (thus gifting the opposition a point). We lost 9 of the games, 6 in regulation (nul point) and 3 in OT (thus salvaging a point). We conceded in the last 2 minutes in 9 of these games and in the last 5 minutes in a further 3 games. Late penalties conceded were arguably not particularly important overall.

In two other games, we fell away despite being close:

10.12 v Guildford: 2-3 down, then conceded twice at 58.43 EN and 59.56 EN. Result 2-5 (L)
10.2 v Sheffield: 0-1 down after 2, then conceded at 41.26, 45.20 and 56.55. Result 0-4 (L)

On the plus side, we recovered from deficits, some large, in 6 games and went on to win 3:

28.10 v MK: 1-3 down, recovered to 3-3 in regulation and won in OT. Result 4-3 OT (W)
19.11 v Cardiff: 2-3 down, recovered to 6-3. Result 7-4 (W)
13.1 v Belfast: 1-3 down, recovered to 4-4 but conceded at 59.38 and 59.44 EN. Result 4-6 (L)
21.1 v MK: 1-3 down, then scored six straight. Result 7-3 (W)
6.3 v Dundee: 0-3 down, recovered to 2-3 but lost despite scoring at 59.09 EA. Result 3-4 (L)
11.3 v Belfast: 1-5 down, recovered to 4-5 but conceded at 59.02 EN. Result 4-6 (L)

That doesn't necessarily answer all of ashfieldpanther's questions in full but, overall, it suggests we haven't been particularly good at holding on to a lead, even a two-goal one, and have tended to give away late goals to our cost.

That my friend, must have been a lot of work. You are to be applauded. What it does lead me to say is that in a 6 period playoff game we 6 solid periods, not 4 and a couple of 'take it easy' ones.