Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2014 11:58:09 GMT
I’ve put a question on the CWTV Twitter that I wanted to put on here as well. Is the current criticism of the Panthers team & form justified? We’ll be discussing it when we record the podcast tonight and will include constructive & reasonable answers we receive here.
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Post by pantherdman on Nov 18, 2014 12:22:48 GMT
I think the players are doing ok tbh. My main gripe is that we aren't being given the tools neccessary to win the league and it is happening year after year. IMO we are vastly underspending and short changing the fans. Going into last weekend under strength was criminal IMO.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,440
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Post by iginla on Nov 18, 2014 13:01:17 GMT
That's my main problem too,I feel like we are being short changed and taken for mugs. Our crowds are holding up very well or if anything getting bigger and bigger,the fans dig deeper and deeper on all sorts of counts......yet the quality of our roster seems to be decreasing.
We are doing ok ish,but after Edinburgh they said it was a blip.then it was another blip against Cardiff,then it happened again in Belfast. At some point and soon,we have to say this isn't good enough,stop sweeping losses under the carpet and actually do something about it. I'm seeing our main rivals getting stronger with the signings of Westgarth,O'connor,Sindel and a replacement coming for Morency,however we have lost Robinson with no sign of any replacement and also taken a big chance in letting Modig go so quickly without game testing a seemingly injury prone Kowalski.
At the last look at our record this season we were something like 15 wins and 17 losses,that's not a good record !
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Yotes
Forum Admin
Posts: 16,422
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Post by Yotes on Nov 18, 2014 13:14:04 GMT
I think some of the criticism is OTT, I'm sorry to say it but perhaps being proven correct in early season predictions has become too important to some people, so that they jump on everything.
There have been some poor results along the way, but overall our record's OK, 9-3-3, we're fairly well set at the moment. Defence is keeping the numbers down quite well, by and large. I don't think we've played particularly brilliantly this season - albeit while still getting results - and we're a bit short on goals.
I'm not convinced they'll carry a title challenge if left as they are, but they won't be the worst Panthers team I've ever seen either. Oldman said something on the Belfast thread (I think) about extremes, and he's got a point.
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Warren
Greg Hadden
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Post by Warren on Nov 18, 2014 13:22:16 GMT
I don't think that this is the best panthers team ever put together, but neither is it the worst. I do think that the statement that the eye has gone off the prize a little with the last 2 years European adventures is true and to add that all the other sides seem to have picked up there game in the same time frame disjoints the view. I dont like seeing this "1 point from a possible 6" business. whats the saying? "lies, damn lies and statistics" The only stat that matters is 21points out of 30. Taking that, lets look at the rest of the league... League Postion | Team | GP | Pts | PPG | 3rd | Sheffield | 14 | 22 | 1.57 | 4th | Nottingham | 15 | 21 | 1.4
| 1st | Belfast | 17 | 23 | 1.35 | 2nd | Braehead | 17 | 23 | 1.35 | 6th | Cardiff | 15 | 17 | 1.13 | 5th | Fife | 18 | 18 | 1
| 7th | Coventry | 16 | 16 | 1
| 8th | Hull | 15 | 13 | 0.86 | 9th | Edinburgh | 16 | 11 | 0.68 | 10th | Dundee | 17 | 8 | 0.47
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Can we really moan at the moment? Yes we are in a slight low at the moment, but we could easily turn it around and win 8 on the spin again.
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Post by ted logan on Nov 18, 2014 13:25:16 GMT
As fans we seem to always seem to want to find excuses for not putting up at least a consistent league title challenge every season. In the early days, we'd just re-formed and the more established teams were the ones to beat. When we were a rink team in the ISL days, we were up against bigger budget arena teams and struggled. However, nowadays, we are the well established, bigger budget arena team and yet we still under achieve. Same as above, i feel we are being short changed and have been for more than just this season. The last 2 seasons, much of the blame seems to be on Euro campaigns. What about the other seasons where we came up short in the league? I've been a bit lazy here and just copied and pasted this (my thoughts remain the same) which i posted on an earlier thread several weeks ago:- Domestically we have stunk since the grand slam season. Mid table obscurity last season and failed to make POFW for the first time in the CN era. This season isn't looking likely to be much better based on what we've seen so far either. *NB:- slight improvement since then Even before the Grand Slam season we have massively under-achieved in the league for the entirety of the EIHL/NIC era. Why is this? In those 11 seasons we have won the league once and finished runners-up once, way back in 2003-04. During the same time, Belfast, Coventry and Sheffield's records are:- Belfast:- Winners 3 times; Runners-up 4 times Coventry:- Winners 4 times; Runners-up 1 time Sheffield:- Winners 3 times; Runners-up 3 times Not good enough really.
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Post by Rob Scott on Nov 18, 2014 13:26:44 GMT
I'm personally finding us quite dull to watch this season as I feel that we are missing several of the ingredients needed to make up an entertaining and successful team.
As one of thousands and thousands of Panthers supporters I do find it a bit frustrating that we seem to make so many recruitment decisions based on money.
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Yotes
Forum Admin
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Post by Yotes on Nov 18, 2014 13:39:47 GMT
I can't really disagree with Ted & ftm above, but with regard to not mounting a challenge, this year's lot are in amongst it at the moment, we should at least give them the chance to fail.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,440
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Post by iginla on Nov 18, 2014 14:02:18 GMT
I agree with Ted too.
When we were a small team we spent what we could afford,but now we are the biggest team...........!!!!!!!!!!!!
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BigLad
David Clarke
TWITTER: @AntMJ11
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Post by BigLad on Nov 18, 2014 14:09:15 GMT
There are things missing from this team that I'm not keen on.
Saturday was one of the most boring games I've seen. It just sucked the energy right out of me (and I said that when we were both 1-0 and 2-1 up, so it wasn't based on the result!). Even the England game beforehand was better.
I do feel we're lacking physically big time.
- We're definatley missing an established scrapper that can get involved when needed (I'm talking a Lepine/Keefe type, not a Payette/Emmerson).
- We have no physicality about us at all, we don't have anyone finishing checks, making players look over their shoulder and instead teams can play us and pretty much do as they please. I know CN has wanted to avoid this route and use the powerplay time given, but our powerplay stinks at the mo, which brings me to...
We have no regular goal threat. We're still waiting for the Bruce to catch fire. We're still waiting for Higgins to get match fit. But other than those two, where is the attacking threat? David Clarke will score goals but he can't do it alone.
Unfortunately we're yet to see this team play at full strength (as in the team CN signed for the season, not one with extra CHL imports), but I don't see where the above comes from at the mo.
I thought we missed Robbo massively on Saturday as we had noone who could do that something special to unlock Cardiff. I didn't see Sunday's game so can't comment how we looked there. The previous Sunday was another example of "after the Lord Mayor's show" as it was when Hull tanked us following the Hamburg game.
We deffo need to add some different elements to the team, but I can't say who I'd drop from the current lot.
As much as people (me included) talk about Fox, Lepine, etc...I think we're massively missing Matt Francis this season.
Apologies for the stupidly long answer.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Nov 18, 2014 14:29:41 GMT
Your'e certainly right there Big Lad.
Take a look at the points stats on the EIHL site,we have only two players in the top 40 scorers and one of those is Clarkey in 40th place,that's shocking !
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oldman
Simon Hunt
The World is full of experts
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Post by oldman on Nov 18, 2014 14:42:17 GMT
From what i have seen in the last couple of seasons is since the inclusion of more teams north of the border, the quality of the likes of Edinburgh has gone from Cannon fodder to decent opposition that on their day can turn over any team. So we get a better league in general with less predictable results.
Now for us, we are a very functional team, we are not showy like the Fox era but as a unit we are as good as any at the top of the league. People seem to want us to be successful,and entertaining sometimes you cannot be both though.
There are people in here who seem to wallow in negativity and have a told you so attitude to all others in here. So we lose a game on Pens that we were never behind in and lose in the third by an odd goal in Belfast and they jump in with the totally over the top and for them " We Are Doomed" which is their constant Rhetoric and something they must enjoy typing as they do it so often.
In reality our problems are that some fans have a lack of respect for the other teams , thinking we only need to turn up to win and then moaning when the team do not fulfill their unattainable aspirations !
We are doing ok for me a lot of teams are going to get beat by anyone on the night. We are still in the hunt for the title and that is with a few injuries this season so far. So lets wait and see how this pans out !
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5+game
Terry Kurtenbach
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Post by 5+game on Nov 18, 2014 14:55:58 GMT
I'm personally finding us quite dull to watch this season as I feel that we are missing several of the ingredients needed to make up an entertaining and successful team. As one of thousands and thousands of Panthers supporters I do find it a bit frustrating that we seem to make so many recruitment decisions based on money. I think it says it all when you look at the fact that we have 2 players (Lawrence & Clarke)in the top 40 in scoring in the league. Belfast 5 of 40 Cardiff 4 Sheffield 5 (inc 3 of the top 5) Fife 8 Edin 2 Dundee 2 Hull 4 Braehead 6 Coventry 2 If you go to the top 60 it gets worse only another 3 one of which is Robinson. Can anyone honestly name a player that we can look at to turn a game around because I cant. We may be a good team but it takes a great team to win the league and we arnt one.
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Post by couchcoach on Nov 18, 2014 15:34:44 GMT
I believe there is enough talent on this team it just needs to be brought together.
Healthy competition between players could be bumped up IMO. Let's start making the players EARN their ice time. If one of the d men are having a sluggish game, sit him out for a couple shifts to maybe put a fire under him. Sometimes that's all it takes to get a players head into the game.
Let's take the power play for example, all the guys on the pp have the talent but sometimes are not in it, let's change up the personnel to some that don't usually get that ice time and I can guarantee you are now going to get 110% from the one getting a chance to prove himself and the player sitting off for a couple stints going out and proving he deserves to be back on.
I believe players can become complacent knowing that it doesn't matter how they perform that game they are getting the ice time no matter what.
It's not going to hurt the team at all to go a couple shifts with a 5 man rotation on d or sit a forward line a shift to prove a point.
Like I said IMO I think these guys have the talent, time to add some competition amongst them.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Nov 18, 2014 15:53:25 GMT
I believe players can become complacent knowing that it doesn't matter how they perform that game they are getting the ice time no matter what. Bingo = And that goes for the entire league and several of the Euro players we have had over the years have even said this too.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Nov 18, 2014 16:02:03 GMT
In reality our problems are that some fans have a lack of respect for the other teams , thinking we only need to turn up to win and then moaning when the team do not fulfill their unattainable aspirations ! Just as in any other sport I am a Panthers fan and I have zero respect for the other teams. Yes they have got better over the last few years (even the Capitals with their 250 regular fans). I want to see the whole league continue to improve and I also want the Panthers to grow and get better too. I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling when some of the smaller teams come and beat us. I don't care who beats us because I want to see *our* team compete. The fact is that the last two years have been pretty poorly recruited (and I DEARLY want to be proved wrong on this as the weeks go by) and now we have a set up built on speed and skill which is a great idea in theory but at this point we are not looking too fast or too skillful. I think we are an easy team now for opposing teams to work out. But then I am just block 5 coach and the man earning the wages stands on the other side of the ice.
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Higgy
Les Strongman
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Post by Higgy on Nov 18, 2014 17:22:55 GMT
For me the Coventry game showed we can mix it if we need too, we played with a nasty edge that night, if we did that most games I'd be a lot happier watching this team.
Lack of attacking threat is my main issue especially now Robinson has gone, we don't seem to have that someone who can deke the entire opposition and score now, maybe Higgins can but he doesn't have much pace so I cant see that happening.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Nov 18, 2014 17:43:11 GMT
For me the Coventry game showed we can mix it if we need too, we played with a nasty edge that night, if we did that most games I'd be a lot happier watching this team. Lack of attacking threat is my main issue especially now Robinson has gone, we don't seem to have that someone who can deke the entire opposition and score now, maybe Higgins can but he doesn't have much pace so I cant see that happening. Plus Robinson took players with him all over the ice opening up spaces.
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Mozzy
Pat Casey
Cracking
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Post by Mozzy on Nov 18, 2014 18:23:44 GMT
In reality our problems are that some fans have a lack of respect for the other teams , thinking we only need to turn up to win and then moaning when the team do not fulfill their unattainable aspirations ! Just as in any other sport I am a Panthers fan and I have zero respect for the other teams. Yes they have got better over the last few years (even the Capitals with their 250 regular fans). I want to see the whole league continue to improve and I also want the Panthers to grow and get better too. I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling when some of the smaller teams come and beat us. I don't care who beats us because I want to see *our* team compete. The fact is that the last two years have been pretty poorly recruited (and I DEARLY want to be proved wrong on this as the weeks go by) and now we have a set up built on speed and skill which is a great idea in theory but at this point we are not looking too fast or too skillful. I think we are an easy team now for opposing teams to work out. But then I am just block 5 coach and the man earning the wages stands on the other side of the ice. We're pretty skilful and fast but, as proved at your place the other week, it doesn't mean jack if you don't compete hard.
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Mozzy
Pat Casey
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Post by Mozzy on Nov 18, 2014 18:26:52 GMT
I do think the criticism of your team is a little harsh.
You have a solid defence that doesn't concede many. You need to find a way to score more goals. Either getting more out of Graham, Clarke, Higgins etc or brining a goal scorer in. Although I can't imagine there are that many pure goalscorers around right now.
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Post by texpef on Nov 18, 2014 18:32:53 GMT
Biggest problem for me is that it makes little difference how good or bad your team is its how it stacks up to the others in the league and as stated other teams have improved and in some cases massively. For example as also stated sheffield have a top line that ALL the other teams would kill for and have what was it 3 in the top 5 scorers? also the lower placed teams have improved (still shouldnt be enough to trouble the high spending top clubs in the league) but since our triple it seems the club has, to quote Ian, "rested on their laurels" and have not had a continual improvement at all in fact if anything we have stagnated which brings me to this years team. We are averaging approx 3 goals a game now in our league that means we will lose approx the same as we will win with a goals against just below that and this can only drop now that we havent the talent that was Robinson. It seems imho that we dont know as a club what we are about... are we a club that has the meanest defence in the league and can win by scoring a single goal (or two) or are we a club that we have been in the past where the team score 5-6 and dare other teams to score more?
Personally i dont think we have a defence that can stop teams scoring the important goal as the last weeekend can testify nor have we a team this season where we have free scoring forwards who can make goals from nothing and score when needed so to me the coach and club need to decide which way they want to go as imho we dont have the personnel to achieve either and as things stand given that other teams are better than ours it is unlikely imho that we will win anything other than second runners up...
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Post by cjmatt42 on Nov 18, 2014 19:32:51 GMT
By my reckoning the 2012/13 team were 11-5-0 by the same time of year as being 9-3-3 this time round, win that extra game and points return is better than the same time that season in what in my opinion is a much more competitive league this time round. Do I think the team is perfect? Probably not but this weekend should be the first game we have 3 natural centres in a long time which hopefully gives the lines more balance and sees us win more face offs and just like that season I have faith slight changes that are probably necessary will be made.
The signs from Higgins last weekend were good, 2 assists and set Lacho up for a great chance in Belfast. Get him firing with Graham just as Ling and Graham clicked that year and we will be about there. I think get those 2 firing and just like 2012/13 the rest of the roster benefits. Clarke, Galivan, Franny etc all got more goals thanks to other teams worrying about the one killer pairing that year and I'm sure Jacina, Lawrence, Clarke will again contribute additional secondary scoring.
Anyway, the players wearing the Panthers jersey are the only ones we can support so for me that's what to do rather than worrying who is spending what. They represent our club and city and as such get behind rather than write them off.
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Post by pantherdman on Nov 18, 2014 20:16:47 GMT
Pretty sure it's been .500 hockey or there abouts for several years (grand slam apart). Anyone got the stats on this?
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Post by nytram89 on Nov 18, 2014 21:04:55 GMT
Sometimes i dont think its justified slagging off the players. It comes a lot down to recruitment and coaching. If you are constantly rolling different lines game by game no matter how good the players are the team is going to struggle. (That goes for any sport really) I also do not believe the players we have are that bad tbh. The defense looks pretty solid and if they get it drilled into them that they dont mess around with the puck in their oen zone then there is a lot to be happy about. I do agree however with what has been commented on that we miss a stellar one or two forwards who can change a game when things are tight. But as i have said i think with the forwards we have if we sorted out regular lines we may start creating more opportunities. As for our form over recent games i dont see to much to be concerned about just yet as we havent got thumped in any game they have just been bybthe odd goal. These games could have gone differently on another night. Always the optimist and we could win the next 8 games and everything will be rosey again lol. Just a final point please get robinson or a similar replacement as live watching this calibre of player
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dp
Jim Keyes
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Post by dp on Nov 18, 2014 21:07:27 GMT
Biggest problem for me is that it makes little difference how good or bad your team is its how it stacks up to the others in the league and as stated other teams have improved and in some cases massively. For example as also stated sheffield have a top line that ALL the other teams would kill for and have what was it 3 in the top 5 scorers? also the lower placed teams have improved (still shouldnt be enough to trouble the high spending top clubs in the league) but since our triple it seems the club has, to quote Ian, "rested on their laurels" and have not had a continual improvement at all in fact if anything we have stagnated which brings me to this years team. We are averaging approx 3 goals a game now in our league that means we will lose approx the same as we will win with a goals against just below that and this can only drop now that we havent the talent that was Robinson. It seems imho that we dont know as a club what we are about... are we a club that has the meanest defence in the league and can win by scoring a single goal (or two) or are we a club that we have been in the past where the team score 5-6 and dare other teams to score more? Personally i dont think we have a defence that can stop teams scoring the important goal as the last weeekend can testify nor have we a team this season where we have free scoring forwards who can make goals from nothing and score when needed so to me the coach and club need to decide which way they want to go as imho we dont have the personnel to achieve either and as things stand given that other teams are better than ours it is unlikely imho that we will win anything other than second runners up... This is what I find confusing. Corey teams used to be about the whole "Sexy Neilson Hockey" thing - that was his brand. Outscoring other teams, bullying them, finishing checks, entertaining the crowd - and winning more than they lost. Last season he goes for 3 top grade enforcers, this season he goes for nothing even approaching one. Last season he goes for good CVs with loads of ex NHLers (although I'd question whether last year's team was any more "expensive" than this season's), this season he deliberately goes for younger, less experienced players. So what does he believe? It really does give the impression that either he doesn't have a clue, or that he's under instruction and is just spouting out what he's told. The comparison with the results at the same time in 2012/13 is a good one, because at this stage many people were calling for changes to be made. Stewart coming in stopped the rot, but it wasn't until Lepine and Wilson came in that the team started firing. And this is what annoys me - it seems Corey hasn't learned anything at all from that season about the balance you need to win the Elite League. Despite what he says, the rules haven't actually changed, and the teams we're playing week in, week out against have recruited in the same mould as ever.
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