Shaggy
Forum Moderator
Am I a cynical idealist or an idealistic cynic?
Posts: 10,995
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Post by Shaggy on Jul 14, 2012 7:05:16 GMT
Can't really argue much with the actual facts pointed out in that reply... but it sure as hell comes over badly as a "like it or lump it" attitude. Whether intentional or not (benefit of the doubt? - nuances don't come over well in type, as many posts on this very forum have proven in the past) that reply really, really doesn't come over well at all. Never mind the "Oderint Dum Metuant" from last season... this feels more like the digitus impudicus... It has to be said - there are plenty of areas in which the Panthers ARE professional and successful, but communicating with the fans is not one of them!
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lee
David Clarke
Posts: 3,712
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Post by lee on Jul 14, 2012 7:21:17 GMT
That response is shocking....
Yes the season ticket has 2 more games this season.... Last seasons ticket had two less for the same price as season before that, so that's not a coche argument. It's totally condescending and I still think the product purchased is not what's now been given.
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Post by NottinghamMatt on Jul 14, 2012 7:27:45 GMT
Can't really argue much with the actual facts pointed out in that reply... but it sure as hell comes over badly as a "like it or lump it" attitude. Whether intentional or not (benefit of the doubt? - nuances don't come over well in type, as many posts on this very forum have proven in the past) that reply really, really doesn't come over well at all. Never mind the "Oderint Dum Metuant" from last season... this feels more like the digitus impudicus... It has to be said - there are plenty of areas in which the Panthers ARE professional and successful, but communicating with the fans is not one of them! No I'm sure the facts are bang on in both emails, but did you know we were meant to be starting the season on the 1st? Or that one of the exciting pre-season games was to be included. Can't not communicate something to people and then write an email like that which basically reads. "well you should of known all this we hadn't told you" It's pathetic and I'm sure nothing it going to change, glad the £50 I'm saving due to the awful shirts will pay for the game I was expecting to get on the season ticket they've taken away from me!
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Post by texpef on Jul 14, 2012 8:14:33 GMT
Now as a non season ticket holder it reads to me be grateful we arent screwing you as much as we are walkups... and how in any universe is a non competitive pre season friendly game an upgrade on a quarter final?
Last point seems they have taken the view of our esteemed colleague on here and going with the view the quarter final will be against one of the lesser scottish teams, personally i cant see it being against anyone other than either belfast or clan... not sure how that will be such a rollover myself....
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Pies
Forum Moderator
Reluctant Chief of ITK
Posts: 4,879
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Post by Pies on Jul 14, 2012 8:28:24 GMT
Now as a non season ticket holder it reads to me be grateful we arent screwing you as much as we are walkups... and how in any universe is a non competitive pre season friendly game an upgrade on a quarter final? Last point seems they have taken the view of our esteemed colleague on here and going with the view the quarter final will be against one of the lesser scottish teams, personally i cant see it being against anyone other than either belfast or clan... not sure how that will be such a rollover myself.... IIRC the top 4 from each group CC group qualify, chances are if we will get a scottish team. Only way i see us getting Belfast is if we come 4th in our group.
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wapcap
Jade Galbraith
Posts: 53
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Post by wapcap on Jul 14, 2012 8:49:23 GMT
I think patronising is the word you are looking for. This extends to the Scottish teams in general & the Nottingham 2012/13 ST holders in particular.
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lee
David Clarke
Posts: 3,712
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Post by lee on Jul 14, 2012 9:15:48 GMT
I sacked off my season ticket this season, but I'm still out raged at the treatment and response to the e mails.
"like it or lump it" I hope no one goes to the pre season games or the quarter final
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Post by dreadface on Jul 14, 2012 9:31:39 GMT
Although I'm more than happy with the games against Asiago, I can understand why people are angry over this and the way that Panthers have handled this and communicated with season ticket holders makes me quite glad I haven't purchased a season ticket this year like I planned to.
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Post by glenngiant on Jul 14, 2012 10:43:03 GMT
Have to say as a neutral it looks to be a shocking decision from the Panthers organisation.
First of all calling it a 'glamour' friendly and therefore trying to justify it as worthy of taking a game of your season ticket is a bit much, its a team from Italy not AHL,DEL or KHL etc.
Both teams will be using these games for fitness, the working of lines and systems to say it will be better than a cup QF is laughable particulary when they don't even know who they are playing.
A big slap in the face for those who have parted with their ST money but hey if the chairman says its ok, i guess its ok.
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Post by elliottstanley on Jul 14, 2012 11:00:00 GMT
I rest my case.
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Post by tessier26 on Jul 14, 2012 11:21:32 GMT
Nothing will ever change in their attitude to fans! I suspect even if a large group continually made complaints as to how they were being treated as a paying customer, it would just be brushed off. I've noticed this a lot in successful business people. Once they are flying high and a big success, unfortunately most get an ago problem/superiority complex and forget they are an equal human being to anyone else. The way Panthers is run reminds me of the government. You may not like what we do, but we will do it anyway and you will like it or lump it!
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Post by james1977 on Jul 14, 2012 11:27:50 GMT
Panthers make more money from and aim their advertising at walk up/casual fans. Is anyone surprised they treat season ticket holders with contempt?
Season ticket money provides them with a little security pre-season but once the season starts and progresses it pales into insignificance compared to single ticket sales.
Making the 27th game a knock-about friendly where usually the curtains would be down instead of a potentially lucrative quarter final, ker-ching.
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Post by tessier26 on Jul 14, 2012 11:44:40 GMT
Panthers make more money from and aim their advertising at walk up/casual fans. Is anyone surprised they treat season ticket holders with contempt? Season ticket money provides them with a little security pre-season but once the season starts and progresses it pales into insignificance compared to single ticket sales. Making the 27th game a knock-about friendly where usually the curtains would be down instead of a potentially lucrative quarter final, ker-ching. A very good point, i was forgetting how much a match day ticket costs in comparison to the ST price.
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No 29
Jade Galbraith
Posts: 123
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Post by No 29 on Jul 14, 2012 12:15:00 GMT
The inflation rate wasn't something they thought about with the 2010 to 2011 per game ST increase.
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Mythosman
Matt Myers
Age is a big price to pay for maturity!
Posts: 1,661
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Post by Mythosman on Jul 14, 2012 12:30:42 GMT
The response received by Big Lad not only misses the point -annoyingly, it actually evades it, which is a strong indication, to me at least, that they know they are in the wrong! Evasion is a favourite ploy used by all politicians (and Ryanair!), and a skill / technique taught by corporate media skills trainers - GM the GM included! The facts - as that is what the Panthers office are keen to focus on - are: 29 May 2012 - Season Tickets still on sale - Website announces that Season Tickets will contain 26 League games + the Challenge Cup Quarter Final game, or the Play-Off Quarter Final game, if they didn't make it to the QF of the Challenge Cup - no mention anywhere that this may be subject to change! 22 June 2012 - Season Ticket sales window closes. 11 July 2012 - The Asiago games announced to the world on the website, with the news that the Saturday game miraculously becomes the 27th game on the Season Ticket - slipped in at the end of the release. The claim of this actually being an 'upgrade' to our Season Tickets is frankly an insult to people's intelligence, particularly those who know anything about hockey! - Misleading? YES
- Mis-selling? YES
- Patronising? DEFINITELY
I've been looking into the guidance around the Trades Descriptions Act 1968, and I suspect that if pressed by Trading Standards, Panthers would probably use the defence that their original statement of 29 May 2012 was made in good faith, and was true when it was made. As I understand it, the Act only makes traders culpable for making false claims / offers if they knew they were false at the time. So, what can Season Ticket holders do about the treatment received? In practical terms, probably very little, apart from venting their anger and frustration on the Forum, and bombarding the Chairman with complaints now - then stay away from the Sunday game(s) of the Asiago series, thus depriving the Panthers of income. Does /will it bother them? I doubt it, as they have ridden roughshod over the fanbase for years, and show no signs of changing now, but as Elliott Stanley so eloquently put it earlier in this thread, the time will come when they will really need the fanbase to get behind them, so their day will come!
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seedy
Pat Casey
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Post by seedy on Jul 14, 2012 18:30:03 GMT
If any part of it was paid on credit card you can get a full refund.... if you feel that strongly, as the goods or services were not as described. that being you dont get the games promised when you purchased the season ticket.
Send a copy of the statements on the website given by mythos man above and go via your bank. Its not a section 75 claim but na visa/mastercard dispute.
Your bank will do the rest.
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Post by Rob #12 on Jul 14, 2012 19:08:53 GMT
Has anyone actually asked the panthers for a refund of their season ticket money, or just made a complaint re: the change? Seeing as the tickets haven't been printed, and the terms have changed Trading Standards would insist that you give the Panthers chance to rectify their mistake (though it's clear the panthers don't think that they have made a mistake)
I've gone from several seasons of season tickets to going to a number of games last year due to their contempt for fans. Stuff like this and it might be one or two next year for me max. They are killing off their relationships with fans one by one...
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,484
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Post by iginla on Jul 14, 2012 20:07:51 GMT
That Panthers reply is just typiacal of the way they treat fans,it even reads like they are doing the fans a favour by letting them buy a season ticket ! Where would Mr Black be without that nice big pot of season ticket money when it comes to paying his big lump sum bond to the arena pre season,never mind the interest it earns for 2 or 3 months in the bank ? As for the quality of opposition,yes they are decent,but it isn't the Toronto Marlies or Hamilton Bulldogs is it ? Last time we played an Italian team was in proper competition in the continental cup in Amiens,it was Milan we played....... and we beat them,so they ain't that hot !
And Mr Moran,don't be so bloody condescending towards the Scottish teams,we don't see you ever giving the fans ticket discounts just because we are playing your so called lesser teams do we ?
The Saturday game against Asiago had better be played in the right spirit and properly,or you may just be playing in a near empty arena on the Sunday.
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Discoray
Robert Lachowicz
Simply Clantastic!
Posts: 418
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Post by Discoray on Jul 15, 2012 1:12:42 GMT
From the outside looking in, I would say you guys have been had and should rightly complain about it. Taking it to the local trading standards body if it comes to it. The friendly was announced weeks after the season ticket window closed, so by changing the arrangement essentially this is “not the deal” that was agreed between the club and the season ticket purchaser.
Yes STs work out cheaper than paying each game on the night, and it also has other advantages but that isn’t the point. You as the purchaser made the payment on agreed conditions and those have been changed without consent, this could have been easily fixed if ST holders were asked which game they would like to be part of the ST package.
If you feel aggrieved about this, most definitely take it up further! If it’s allowed to slide, what’s to stop something similar happening down the line?
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5+game
Terry Kurtenbach
Posts: 2,974
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Post by 5+game on Jul 15, 2012 8:22:58 GMT
Does ayone know if its worth going to the evening post about it, or will it just be laughed off by them.
I know the derby papers are all over the story about rams fans wanting refunds after they sold a player
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Mythosman
Matt Myers
Age is a big price to pay for maturity!
Posts: 1,661
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Post by Mythosman on Jul 15, 2012 9:29:11 GMT
Does ayone know if its worth going to the evening post about it, or will it just be laughed off by them. I know the derby papers are all over the story about rams fans wanting refunds after they sold a player Although Mick Holland obviously does read the Forum, as reflected in some of his storylines occasionally, I doubt whether he would particularly want to pick this issue to raise in the media, as to do his job successfully, he has to maintain a reasonable working relationship with the Panthers management. If he was seen to openly criticise their business practice, GM would probably cut off the supply of 'inside information' to him, and could even stop his free 'Press Pass' to games, if he wanted to make a point! So no, personally I don't think you'd get much mileage out of that particular approach, but there's nothing to stop you trying!
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Post by mattalfuk on Jul 15, 2012 9:34:38 GMT
Does ayone know if its worth going to the evening post about it, or will it just be laughed off by them. I know the derby papers are all over the story about rams fans wanting refunds after they sold a player Although Mick Holland obviously does read the Forum, as reflected in some of his storylines occasionally, I doubt whether he would particularly want to pick this issue to raise in the media, as to do his job successfully, he has to maintain a reasonable working relationship with the Panthers management. If he was seen to openly criticise their business practice, GM would probably cut off the supply of 'inside information' to him, and could even stop his free 'Press Pass' to games, if he wanted to make a point! So no, personally I don't think you'd get much mileage out of that particular approach, but there's nothing to stop you trying! I would have thought the relationship is far more beneficial to Panthers. They need to keep their name in the paper to keep reminding those occasional fans that they're still around etc. Some other clubs would give their right arm to have the same level of coverage in their local papers
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5+game
Terry Kurtenbach
Posts: 2,974
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Post by 5+game on Jul 15, 2012 18:04:27 GMT
Does ayone know if its worth going to the evening post about it, or will it just be laughed off by them. I know the derby papers are all over the story about rams fans wanting refunds after they sold a player Although Mick Holland obviously does read the Forum, as reflected in some of his storylines occasionally, I doubt whether he would particularly want to pick this issue to raise in the media, as to do his job successfully, he has to maintain a reasonable working relationship with the Panthers management. If he was seen to openly criticise their business practice, GM would probably cut off the supply of 'inside information' to him, and could even stop his free 'Press Pass' to games, if he wanted to make a point! So no, personally I don't think you'd get much mileage out of that particular approach, but there's nothing to stop you trying! I thought asmuch but, if i was to go down this route i wouldnt have gone through mick anyway
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Pies
Forum Moderator
Reluctant Chief of ITK
Posts: 4,879
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Post by Pies on Jul 15, 2012 18:56:23 GMT
Although Mick Holland obviously does read the Forum, as reflected in some of his storylines occasionally, I doubt whether he would particularly want to pick this issue to raise in the media, as to do his job successfully, he has to maintain a reasonable working relationship with the Panthers management. If he was seen to openly criticise their business practice, GM would probably cut off the supply of 'inside information' to him, and could even stop his free 'Press Pass' to games, if he wanted to make a point! So no, personally I don't think you'd get much mileage out of that particular approach, but there's nothing to stop you trying! I thought asmuch but, if i was to go down this route i wouldnt have gone through mick anyway But as the main sport guy for NEP, he has final say on if the story goes in the paper or not I believe. It's not enough of a headline for them to warrant risking their relationship over IMO.
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Post by pantherdman on Jul 15, 2012 20:57:32 GMT
It is very simple, the owners of our club want to treat the 'greatest fans in the world' with utter contempt. The sad fact is mr black only sees £'s when he looks around the arena. So we should treat them the same, look at the club and always consider £. Don't buy merchandise, don't buy programmes, don't buy 50/50 tickets, don't get season tickets just go to the games that suit you. If you don't get value for money, boo the hell out of them, demand the owners out.
I used to go to every game, buy all the merch, buy loads of beer. I haven't brought anything except a ticket for about 5 years, I won't be going to every game this season and probably won't buy a season ticket next season.
As Eliot says, the panthers will need the loyal fans one day and they won't be there, but the owners probably don't care, they'll just wrap the club up. This might seem like a small thing, but it is one in a long long line.
Sort yourselves out greedy panthers!
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