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Post by Luca Toni on Aug 31, 2008 14:59:39 GMT
Just wondered what opinions people had on Massa's pit lane 'incident' the other day. As it was the lollypop guy not Massa who was at fault, my own view is that it's right that Massa wasn't penalised, but that a penalty against the team may have been warranted. Having said that, I don't disagree with the decision not to penalise the team either. Watching the replay on ITV's website, it was pretty much a nothing incident and that kind of thing happens quite often, I reckon the commentators made a much bigger deal of it than necessary because there wasn't much else going on in the race. Disclaimer: I am a Ferrari fan, but am trying to be unbiased.Correct. There was never going to be any penalty. To do so would have been very harsh. Especially as there was no advantage - if it had been for a race place then maybe they would have issued something, but as the other car in question was a back marker (powered by Ferrari engines) there was no chance of a penalty. At the time I didn't see what all the fuss was about, and I still don't. I believe the commentary from Brundle and the other one was along the lines of "unsafe release into the pit lane" And since Ferrari don't use a lollipop man (take note please Doughnut!) I would tend to think along the lines of their system itself being fundamentally unsafe. Who tells a car to stop if everyone has released their little buttons and the driver gets a light to go? Considering all the people and equipment in the pitlane as it is, allowing systems which release cars out when buttons have been released seems to me to be erring on the side of unsafe in and of itself. Of course he was never getting a penalty. We knew that as soon as it was revealed the stewards would deal with it after the race.
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Post by rangers on Aug 31, 2008 16:08:16 GMT
The chief engineer releases the car from the pit wall, as he gets signals from in the pit box from the pit crew once they have finished their role. the pit wall is probably a better vantage point down the lane than the traditional 'lolipop man.' It has been in use for almost 2 years, and this is the only thing that could nearly be classed as an incident. Every team will be running it within two years - especially with the seemingly more common incidents of drivers jumping the gun before the lolipop has gone up - i wouldnt want to be that lolipop man The commentry was straw clutching from MB and JA.
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Post by Luca Toni on Sept 3, 2008 7:02:11 GMT
Say what you will, I think the FIA should lay down rules about this that all teams, even Ferrari, have to adhere to. This is a clear safety issue.
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loonypeter
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Post by loonypeter on Sept 7, 2008 18:39:22 GMT
So, after the most thrilling end to a race i have ever seen, the FIA decide to completely ruin it by stripping Hamilton of the win. An absolute farce, why bother even having a race if you're gonna penalise the winner for daring to overtake a Ferrari?
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Post by lps on Sept 7, 2008 20:20:07 GMT
Agree fully Loonypeter, FIA an absolute disgrace. As much as I would hate it, Hamilton should quit now. Formula needs Lewis Hamilton more than him needing them. If it was a Ferrari driver in the same situation, then no action would have been taken
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Post by lukethomas on Sept 7, 2008 21:02:24 GMT
This just proves the amount of bias towards Ferarri. Hamilton did the right thing of giving up the place he gained and letting Kimi pass. Last weekend just a fine was handed out to Ferarri after an incident that should of seen a time penalty. This weekend Mercedes get a time penalty after following the rules. The FIA need to kick out those at the top (one of which should already have gone) and get in some unbiased management that have the FIAs best interests at heart, not Ferarris!
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Post by rangers on Sept 7, 2008 21:45:40 GMT
Even as someone supporting Massa in the title race, that penalty was very harsh. I fully expect the appeal to be successful.
But to claim that the FIA is Ferrari bias is just not true - why would it be when it is far better (commercially) for the superstar to win than Massa?
Ferrari got the right penalty last time out - but got this one wrong. I cannot remember any time when Ferrari have been favoured by the FIA
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Post by gsheriston on Sept 7, 2008 22:08:32 GMT
I guess the FIA are now in a no-win situation... Leave the penalty as it stands and be accused of a Ferrari bias, or change it and be accused of favouring Hamilton. I watched the end of the race (from the edge of the seat and almost behind my hands... Nail-biting is not the word!) then left home for the Hull game. I didn't even know about the Steward's enquiry till after I got back. From what I saw, though, Hamilton gave back the place that he gained by short-cutting the chicane - so what did he do to warrant the penalty? Given Kimi's finishing position (i.e. staring at the wall down the broken nose of a Ferrari after crashing out whilst leading) what effect did that sequence of moves have on the outcome anyway?
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Post by lukethomas on Sept 7, 2008 22:25:18 GMT
If hamilton is to win this years drivers championship he must win all of his races and then also beat the FIA/stewards. He has already stated once last season that he was 're-thinking' about if he wanted to be involved in a sport that is full of so much politics. The FIA need hamilton to a certain extent, as he has really brought some new people into the sport and given it another lease of life. If he quits it might just be the thing that pushes a lot of the governing bodies over the edge and cause the 'breakaway' that was threatened earlier this season over the Mosely scandal.
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Doughnut
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Post by Doughnut on Sept 8, 2008 8:20:32 GMT
A harsh decision but it was nowhere near as clear cut as a lot of people seem to think. The question that needs to be answered isn't "Did Lewis allow Kimi back past?" It's "Did Lewis gain an advantage as a result of cutting the corner?"
If Lewis had backed off and stayed on the track instead of cutting that corner, would he have been able to pass Kimi the corner after? I doubt it but I honestly can't decide. It's pretty much 50/50 IMO.
As for the FIA needing Lewis Hamilton, well that's just so ludicrous it's laughable. He has increased viewers in this country, but he's no Michael Schumacher. He doesn't even bring as many viewers as Alonso. If he did the European Grand Prix would be in the UK instead of in Spain.
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Post by rangers on Sept 8, 2008 9:04:42 GMT
A harsh decision but it was nowhere near as clear cut as a lot of people seem to think. The question that needs to be answered isn't "Did Lewis allow Kimi back past?" It's "Did Lewis gain an advantage as a result of cutting the corner?" If Lewis had backed off and stayed on the track instead of cutting that corner, would he have been able to pass Kimi the corner after? I doubt it but I honestly can't decide. It's pretty much 50/50 IMO. As for the FIA needing Lewis Hamilton, well that's just so ludicrous it's laughable. He has increased viewers in this country, but he's no Michael Schumacher. He doesn't even bring as many viewers as Alonso. If he did the European Grand Prix would be in the UK instead of in Spain. I doubt Lewis would be able to get passed at the hairpin - but it was still harsh. I doubt the Euro GP would be held in GB - dont forget we have no race track even remotley suitable, funds to make it suitable, and Lewis has only been here for 1 and a bit seasons. Alonso has been here for ages. But there is no way that the FIA needs Lewis more than he needs the sport - Thats making the very narrow minded view that lewis is even th biggest name in the sport - don't forget there is a very big chance Senna will be racing in F1 next year - he will be F1's golden boy, whatever Lewis does. The sports needs Lewis like it needs Felipe Massa, Kimi Raikkonen, Sebastian Vettel and Adrian Sutil.
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Post by lps on Sept 8, 2008 9:38:12 GMT
Sorry, just to clarify my point about the FIA needing Hamilton.
I have many friends in the US, who claim that Hamilton (being coloured and not in a racist way) has encouraged many more people of ethnic origin to follow F1. In the US and I suspect in other countries, F1 has been seen as a 'white mans sport', very similar to our beloved hockey. I understand that over the last 2 seasons LH has been competing in F1, attendances have increased, and LH has become a favourite outside the UK.
As already stated before, LH has already said that he has considered if he wants to be part of it. Should he decide to leave, it will be a big loss for the sport. This in no way means he is above the law of the sport and bigger than the sport itself.
The same can be said of Massa, Raikonnen, Alonso etc. Any of them leaving would also be a similar loss.
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Doughnut
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Post by Doughnut on Sept 8, 2008 10:00:56 GMT
I doubt the Euro GP would be held in GB - dont forget we have no race track even remotley suitable, funds to make it suitable, and Lewis has only been here for 1 and a bit seasons. Alonso has been here for ages. Donnington will be hosting the British GP from 2010. If Lewis wins the next couple of World Championships it wouldn't be too surprising to see Silverstone hosting the European GP.
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Post by rangers on Sept 8, 2008 10:50:39 GMT
I doubt the Euro GP would be held in GB - dont forget we have no race track even remotley suitable, funds to make it suitable, and Lewis has only been here for 1 and a bit seasons. Alonso has been here for ages. Donnington will be hosting the British GP from 2010. If Lewis wins the next couple of World Championships it wouldn't be too surprising to see Silverstone hosting the European GP. Exactly - It is taking 2 years to get another track upto F1 standards - There are no facilities at that level - it is blatantly obvious Silverstone isn't - there is a reason Bernie moans. When Donnington is ready, Lewis will have been here 4 years. It took Spain how long to get 2 GPs from when the Alonso factor came in? Plus remember there is no money in European F1 - the FIA are hardly likely to want another one in GB.
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Doughnut
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Post by Doughnut on Sept 8, 2008 11:23:55 GMT
Donnington will be hosting the British GP from 2010. If Lewis wins the next couple of World Championships it wouldn't be too surprising to see Silverstone hosting the European GP. Exactly - It is taking 2 years to get another track upto F1 standards - There are no facilities at that level - it is blatantly obvious Silverstone isn't - there is a reason Bernie moans. When Donnington is ready, Lewis will have been here 4 years. It took Spain how long to get 2 GPs from when the Alonso factor came in? Plus remember there is no money in European F1 - the FIA are hardly likely to want another one in GB. Fair point. Though I still reckon the FIA have no greater need for Lewis than they do for several other drivers. Sutil is probably worth more to Bernie than Lewis is.
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p14
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Post by p14 on Sept 14, 2008 0:52:06 GMT
15th on the grid, massa 6th pffft, all the best hammy my son, if it rains again, he's got a chance, but i wouldnt put a tenner on it!!
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Post by Luca Toni on Sept 14, 2008 7:00:12 GMT
Probably the best that Hamilton can reasonably hope for is that Massa doesn't make the finish which is not impossible. Wet would make it more interesting. Massa is not the best in the wet.
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Post by rangers on Sept 14, 2008 14:10:08 GMT
Well it was a cracker - Vettel is a great tallent for the future and he proved it. Lewis was unlucky, but to be fair Massa has had more than his share of bad luck in the past 2 years. This championship gets better and better!
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Post by Luca Toni on Sept 14, 2008 21:35:34 GMT
A very good race with a few "what ifs". Pity there wasn't extra rain as Hamilton would have been on the podium. Looks like it will be him or Massa as the champion now and a DNF in any of the last four races could end that person's hopes. Sure there are still many twists and turns to come. As for poor old Kimi, what's the use knocking out fastest laps half way down the pack. His challenge to retain his title has fizzled out. Youre rear-gunner now old son!!
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loonypeter
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Post by loonypeter on Sept 15, 2008 11:07:59 GMT
Fantastic race from Vettel! That lad would be challenging for WDC's if he was in a top car, he's a very very good driver and even better in the rain! Hamilton did well to come out of this weekend still ahead in the championship, never would have expected that after quali. Gotta feel for "the other Sebastian" Bourdais did really well to get 4th on the grid and from his pace in the race we really could have been looking at a Torro Rosso 1-2! Really hope he keeps his seat next year although the comercial dream team of Sato and Senna might be too much for Gerhard to resist
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Post by rangers on Sept 15, 2008 15:29:13 GMT
Would like Bourdais to get the drive alongside Senna - if Bruno is ready - he didn't have a great end to the season, TBH, and maybe after his break needs one more year in GP2. The clarification of teh overtaking after chicane cutting was also very clear, and on second viewing it is appearent that Hamilton did gain an advantage. It was also good to see the rain stay away in the 2nd half o fthe race yesterday - Massa is owed an awful lot of luck, and the lack of rain might be able to give him the edge going into the deciding races. I predicted Massa for the title at the start of the year, and I'm staying with it.
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Post by rangers on Sept 23, 2008 14:25:32 GMT
Hamilton's appeal has rightly been thrown out. It was thrown out because it is impossible to appeal against drive through penalties (which the time penalty basically was). But even if it had been admissable, i Doubt it would have stood - it is obvious on further viewing that Hamilton did gain an advantage from cutting the corner. The correct result, and now we can look forward to the end of the best championship for years knowing justice was done.
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Doughnut
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Post by Doughnut on Sept 23, 2008 14:49:10 GMT
Harsh. I'd have been interested to see their conclusion had the appeal been allowed to stand.
I still can't decide if Hamilton backed off enough to wipe out the advantage he gained by cutting the chicane. Yes he let Kimi past and was going 6kph slower, but he ducked right back under Kimi's rear wing with a lot more slipstream than he'd have had if he'd taken the chicane properly.
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Doughnut
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Post by Doughnut on Sept 23, 2008 15:08:54 GMT
Hamilton's appeal has rightly been thrown out. It was thrown out because it is impossible to appeal against drive through penalties (which the time penalty basically was). I'll continue this here rather than the Talk Hockey board as this is probably where it belongs ... Do you think that it's right that it's impossible to appeal this penalty? I can see the argument for not allowing the appeal of a drive through (that would get really messy) but when the penalty is applied as a time penalty after the race has finished (regardless of if it's in place of a drive through/stop-go whatever) it would be very easy and clean to allow the appeal and remove the time penalty.
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oldman
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Post by oldman on Sept 24, 2008 19:52:46 GMT
the point you should be looking at is had hamilton been in a ferrari would there have been a different outcome, we had years of schuey bending the rules and driving like a banger car racer and now when maclaren have an ace car and a good young driver they try to manipulate F1 yet again, he took the chicane to avoid another car has that conveniently been overlooked as well.
I hope both ferrari's engines blow up in singapore!
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