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Post by bobness on Mar 6, 2023 17:39:17 GMT
It might just about be a 4 horse race but the quality of hockey overall is still crap! I guess it's the best you can hope for eh Genuine question, what do you really genuinely expect? I know you go all misty-eyed at the mention, as do I, but the UK didn't and still can't sustain an ISL-style league? What do you suggest to improve the quality of the hockey?
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yeti
Robert Lachowicz
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Post by yeti on Mar 7, 2023 20:51:31 GMT
Not sure what Pridge thinks but I would say most of us recognise that Superleague hockey is not realistic. However the level of the hockey we have at the moment is far lower than 5 years ago. Yes we had Covid but now it is time for the standard to start rising again. The wage cap needs to go up and rosters need the under 23 players reintroduced. As the league needs more better quality Brits developing. Now a lot of the quality old guard are retiring.
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DMS
Robert Lachowicz
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Post by DMS on Mar 7, 2023 21:35:47 GMT
Not sure what Pridge thinks but I would say most of us recognise that Superleague hockey is not realistic. However the level of the hockey we have at the moment is far lower than 5 years ago. Yes we had Covid but now it is time for the standard to start rising again. The wage cap needs to go up and rosters need the under 23 players reintroduced. As the league needs more better quality Brits developing. Now a lot of the quality old guard are retiring. Why is it the league’s responsibility to develop the Brits?
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Mar 7, 2023 21:54:10 GMT
Not sure what Pridge thinks but I would say most of us recognise that Superleague hockey is not realistic. However the level of the hockey we have at the moment is far lower than 5 years ago. Yes we had Covid but now it is time for the standard to start rising again. The wage cap needs to go up and rosters need the under 23 players reintroduced. As the league needs more better quality Brits developing. Now a lot of the quality old guard are retiring. Why is it the league’s responsibility to develop the Brits? It isn’t the leagues responsibility. That just exists in the mind of some people who support GB.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Mar 7, 2023 22:03:03 GMT
Not sure what Pridge thinks but I would say most of us recognise that Superleague hockey is not realistic. However the level of the hockey we have at the moment is far lower than 5 years ago. Yes we had Covid but now it is time for the standard to start rising again. The wage cap needs to go up and rosters need the under 23 players reintroduced. As the league needs more better quality Brits developing. Now a lot of the quality old guard are retiring. The wage cap does need to go up, a level of only £12,500 a week is an insult to the fans of the bigger teams. Talk about being short changed ! Just think of Steelers,on 6500 fans a game,they must be grossing the best part of £100k a game on tickets alone and yet only spending an eighth of that on players. And that’s before you even start with all the other money spinning revenue that comes in. Smith and Black must be laughing all the way to the bank.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2023 23:05:27 GMT
Not sure what Pridge thinks but I would say most of us recognise that Superleague hockey is not realistic. However the level of the hockey we have at the moment is far lower than 5 years ago. Yes we had Covid but now it is time for the standard to start rising again. The wage cap needs to go up and rosters need the under 23 players reintroduced. As the league needs more better quality Brits developing. Now a lot of the quality old guard are retiring. The wage cap does need to go up, a level of only £12,500 a week is an insult to the fans of the bigger teams. Talk about being short changed ! Just think of Steelers,on 6500 fans a game,they must be grossing the best part of £100k a game on tickets alone and yet only spending an eighth of that on players. And that’s before you even start with all the other money spinning revenue that comes in. Smith and Black must be laughing all the way to the bank. You think Smith only spends 12.5k a week on players 🤣🤣
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2023 23:08:51 GMT
Not sure what Pridge thinks but I would say most of us recognise that Superleague hockey is not realistic. However the level of the hockey we have at the moment is far lower than 5 years ago. Yes we had Covid but now it is time for the standard to start rising again. The wage cap needs to go up and rosters need the under 23 players reintroduced. As the league needs more better quality Brits developing. Now a lot of the quality old guard are retiring. Lol I never even mentioned the ISL in my original post 🤣 but now you mention it I was glad I was around to remember that league and the quality of hockey it brought.. such a shame that it was the irresponsible owners back then what brought down that league !
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Mar 8, 2023 0:23:16 GMT
The wage cap does need to go up, a level of only £12,500 a week is an insult to the fans of the bigger teams. Talk about being short changed ! Just think of Steelers,on 6500 fans a game,they must be grossing the best part of £100k a game on tickets alone and yet only spending an eighth of that on players. And that’s before you even start with all the other money spinning revenue that comes in. Smith and Black must be laughing all the way to the bank. You think Smith only spends 12.5k a week on players 🤣🤣 Who knows,but the EIHL must have some cap checks in place you’d assume, but even if he spent £20k a week on players Smith would still be making a massive profit. The Steelers must be turning over well in excess of £3million a season and £20k a week on players would only be £600k. They’re having the fans pants down royally with such a paltry cap figure,all because they have to cow down to the little clubs. The quality of top flight UK hockey these days is absolute garbage compared to 20 years ago.
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Post by bobness on Mar 8, 2023 10:57:17 GMT
You think Smith only spends 12.5k a week on players 🤣🤣 Who knows,but the EIHL must have some cap checks in place you’d assume, but even if he spent £20k a week on players Smith would still be making a massive profit. The Steelers must be turning over well in excess of £3million a season and £20k a week on players would only be £600k. They’re having the fans pants down royally with such a paltry cap figure,all because they have to cow down to the little clubs. The quality of top flight UK hockey these days is absolute garbage compared to 20 years ago. I love your take on the economics of hockey in the UK, especially Sheffield. You seriously think they have no other costs than players? And get to keep £100k of ticket sales every game, 30 times a season? Do you know the actual name of the company the Steelers is run through?
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Mar 8, 2023 14:41:37 GMT
Who knows,but the EIHL must have some cap checks in place you’d assume, but even if he spent £20k a week on players Smith would still be making a massive profit. The Steelers must be turning over well in excess of £3million a season and £20k a week on players would only be £600k. They’re having the fans pants down royally with such a paltry cap figure,all because they have to cow down to the little clubs. The quality of top flight UK hockey these days is absolute garbage compared to 20 years ago. I love your take on the economics of hockey in the UK, especially Sheffield. You seriously think they have no other costs than players? And get to keep £100k of ticket sales every game, 30 times a season? Do you know the actual name of the company the Steelers is run through? Of course I understand economics and that there are many other costs, I ran my own company for 28 years ! In the Steelers case they will turnover well in excess of £3million a season, so even if players cost them £600k which I very much doubt at present,you show me where the other £2.5million plus goes because they sure as heck don’t spend that amount on arena rent,flights,housing, travel, equipment, staff wages and insurance etc even after factoring in for vat. And if the costs of hockey are so high how come there are several other clubs who exist on crowds of only a quarter to a third of the Steelers crowds ? No I don’t know the name of the Steelers company it’s run through,but even if you found it I’ll bet that just like with Panthers the real figures will be hidden to hide the true picture from the fans.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2023 21:29:40 GMT
I love your take on the economics of hockey in the UK, especially Sheffield. You seriously think they have no other costs than players? And get to keep £100k of ticket sales every game, 30 times a season? Do you know the actual name of the company the Steelers is run through? Of course I understand economics and that there are many other costs, I ran my own company for 28 years ! In the Steelers case they will turnover well in excess of £3million a season, so even if players cost them £600k which I very much doubt at present,you show me where the other £2.5million plus goes because they sure as heck don’t spend that amount on arena rent,flights,housing, travel, equipment, staff wages and insurance etc even after factoring in for vat. And if the costs of hockey are so high how come there are several other clubs who exist on crowds of only a quarter to a third of the Steelers crowds ? No I don’t know the name of the Steelers company it’s run through,but even if you found it I’ll bet that just like with Panthers the real figures will be hidden to hide the true picture from the fans. Exactly they make huge profits
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Post by bobness on Mar 8, 2023 22:21:35 GMT
Of course I understand economics and that there are many other costs, I ran my own company for 28 years ! In the Steelers case they will turnover well in excess of £3million a season, so even if players cost them £600k which I very much doubt at present,you show me where the other £2.5million plus goes because they sure as heck don’t spend that amount on arena rent,flights,housing, travel, equipment, staff wages and insurance etc even after factoring in for vat. And if the costs of hockey are so high how come there are several other clubs who exist on crowds of only a quarter to a third of the Steelers crowds ? No I don’t know the name of the Steelers company it’s run through,but even if you found it I’ll bet that just like with Panthers the real figures will be hidden to hide the true picture from the fans. Exactly they make huge profits So show us all some. Otherwise it’s all conjecture, isn’t it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2023 23:09:27 GMT
Exactly they make huge profits So show us all some. Otherwise it’s all conjecture, isn’t it? Not really it's just you being blind to the fact. You really think steelers do all this just to break even !! Wake up
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Mar 8, 2023 23:53:41 GMT
Exactly they make huge profits So show us all some. Otherwise it’s all conjecture, isn’t it? Other way round Bob. We can see the sort of money Steelers will be coining in, its up to you to tell us where their big costs are. Put it this way,Steelers and Panthers costs will likely be very similar in most areas but Steelers are dragging in almost 2000 fans a game more. Multiply that up by about 35 home games and your talking some 70,000 extra fans x maybe an average of £12/£13 a ticket. That’s not far off £1million a season more than Panthers and before you even start with likely more shirt and merchandise sales from bigger crowds,far more sponsors, a much bigger 50/50 every game etc. So if you don’t think Tony Smith is making big big profits on what the Steelers are doing then Neil Black must be losing an absolute fortune on what he’s doing !
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Yotes
Forum Admin
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Post by Yotes on Mar 9, 2023 0:03:37 GMT
I've moved these, as you lot are ruining my around the rinks thread. Carry on.
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Post by bobness on Mar 9, 2023 7:18:06 GMT
So show us all some. Otherwise it’s all conjecture, isn’t it? Not really it's just you being blind to the fact. You really think steelers do all this just to break even !! Wake up No-one does, of course, but if you think Steelers make millions of profits a year, we’ll have to disagree. And that’s fine, until anyone has any proof we can both be right. 😂
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Post by bobness on Mar 9, 2023 7:18:29 GMT
I've moved these, as you lot are ruining my around the rinks thread. Carry on. Fair do’s.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2023 7:43:33 GMT
Not really it's just you being blind to the fact. You really think steelers do all this just to break even !! Wake up No-one does, of course, but if you think Steelers make millions of profits a year, we’ll have to disagree. And that’s fine, until anyone has any proof we can both be right. 😂 There's certain things you don't need proof with, by your own admission you just think black loses a fortune every year! I'm surprised he hadn't sold up as his business model isn't working
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Post by bobness on Mar 9, 2023 8:43:56 GMT
No-one does, of course, but if you think Steelers make millions of profits a year, we’ll have to disagree. And that’s fine, until anyone has any proof we can both be right. 😂 There's certain things you don't need proof with, by your own admission you just think black loses a fortune every year! I'm surprised he hadn't sold up as his business model isn't working I can tell you exactly how much final profit Black made last year out of Panthers and Clan combined, as they (Aladdin Management Limited) filed their accounts this week. £18,732. What that doesn't tell us of course is what turnover was, what the costs are, any dividends, any intercompany transactions, management charges etc. We can argue all we like, no-one knows. (Well, they do, but they won't tell you on here) Same for Steelers Ice Arena Limited, which is the Steelers company (I'm pretty sure). Year to March 22, increase in P&L reserve was £173k. But again, we don't know any details. And it had £200k less cash. In its lifetime, SIA has £187k of retained profits. AM has £114k. Without any detail, anything we "conclude" is pure speculation. The detail is absent not to "keep the fans in the dark", but because they (like virtually every other company in that situation) are taking advantage of s444 of the Companies Act 2006, as a "small company" as defined by that Act, but I'm sure you knew that.
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Post by bobness on Mar 9, 2023 8:44:53 GMT
There's certain things you don't need proof with Agreed. Most people call them opinions, as opposed to facts.
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yeti
Robert Lachowicz
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Post by yeti on Mar 9, 2023 10:06:16 GMT
Obviously Panthers have been pants the last couple of years. I also think the wage cap needs increasing to give us a better level of hockey.
I would also say that even if we think some clubs are breaking the cap it appears to have levelled the playing field. So that smaller well run clubs like Coventry and Guilford are now competing with the bigger clubs.
When it comes to developing Brits. I think all sports should develop home grown players and not just for their national teams. The good Brits add a lot to the style of hockey played in this country. Panthers are certainly missing having top end Brits.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Mar 9, 2023 10:23:36 GMT
Not really it's just you being blind to the fact. You really think steelers do all this just to break even !! Wake up No-one does, of course, but if you think Steelers make millions of profits a year, we’ll have to disagree. And that’s fine, until anyone has any proof we can both be right. 😂 No one said they make millions Bob, but look at the likely picture. If the Steelers are attracting 2000 more fans a game than Panthers and that equates to somewhere approaching £1million extra revenue,then even IF Neil Black was only breaking even (which is highly unlikely) then with very similar costs Smith has got to be making a lot of money. Good on them making money,but what narks me is the way the EIHL or clubs at times pretend British hockey is skint and there’s no money in it. Look at the other end of the scale too at a team like Manchester,Fife or Dundee who on crowds of only 1500 probably only turnover some £750k in a whole season but because of the low end cap have to spend a minimum of £250k just on players. That leaves them only circa £500k to cover all these so called massive running costs and the only difference between them and the arena teams is the arena rent. Whichever way you look at it there is big money being made by some whilst others exist on the breadline.
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Post by bobness on Mar 9, 2023 10:47:18 GMT
Whichever way you look at it there is big money being made by some whilst others exist on the breadline. Isn't that why the POFW is so important to the "smaller" clubs? Anyway, neither of us know too much about pretty much everything we're talking about here. There's a lot of assuming.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,422
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Post by iginla on Mar 9, 2023 11:14:51 GMT
Whichever way you look at it there is big money being made by some whilst others exist on the breadline. Isn't that why the POFW is so important to the "smaller" clubs? Anyway, neither of us know too much about pretty much everything we're talking about here. There's a lot of assuming. Yes apparently so with POFW, or at least so I was told several years ago by one of the leagues leading figures that the money generated from it is shared equally between all the leagues teams. That doesn’t change the overall financial imbalance between the big and small teams though. If somebody gave both you and me £50 our bank balances after would still remain the same distance apart.
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Post by bobness on Mar 9, 2023 12:47:32 GMT
Isn't that why the POFW is so important to the "smaller" clubs? Anyway, neither of us know too much about pretty much everything we're talking about here. There's a lot of assuming. Yes apparently so with POFW, or at least so I was told several years ago by one of the leagues leading figures that the money generated from it is shared equally between all the leagues teams. That doesn’t change the overall financial imbalance between the big and small teams though. If somebody gave both you and me £50 our bank balances after would still remain the same distance apart. No, but every sporting league in the world has its "haves" and "have nots", I'd say. Even wage capped leagues have teams that are perennially challengers and teams that aren't. That's why "Moneyball" is so fascinating, but that's a whole other story.
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