GD19 Panthers 4:7 Steelers / Oct 22 / CC

[iginla]

Oct 23, 2022 19:32:46 GMT The Flying Shirt said:

Oct 23, 2022 14:35:44 GMT iginla said:

If there really are new owners coming in at Clan then Black isn’t going to pay the cost of sacking Cameron and signing a new coach. He’ll just leave that cost for the new owner to pick up.
As for Panthers D, well Brassard needs to go he’s a liability with both giveaways and pens,Lagrone isn’t really good enough and neither is Moore.
Of the forwards,like I said three weeks ago Puffer and Anderson need to be shown the door and Johnston isn’t far behind either.
Unless Panthers make at least three or four changes and quickly it’s going to be yet another season of false promises.

Not too worried about winning anything this season as this is the latest version of yet another Panthers rebuild. What I’m really looking for is the core to build on at this point. I think Welsh is having a good year but he ends his Uni course in the summer and I’m liking Hammond, Levin and Brady but that’s not really much of a core.

That’s the trouble there’s nothing much to keep.
Next year Welsh will be gone and probably so will Myers, they’ll both retire,will Ferrara hang around and would you even want him to ? Welchyka and Brady would be about the only two imports you’d perhaps want to keep.
This perennial excuse of “oh we’re building for next year” just doesn’t wash with me I’m afraid. Players never hang around long enough in Nottingham to build anything on, other than Kowalski I’m struggling to think of an import who stayed more than two years.

[blackandgold73]

Oct 23, 2022 19:48:27 GMT iginla said:

Oct 23, 2022 19:32:46 GMT The Flying Shirt said:

Not too worried about winning anything this season as this is the latest version of yet another Panthers rebuild. What I’m really looking for is the core to build on at this point. I think Welsh is having a good year but he ends his Uni course in the summer and I’m liking Hammond, Levin and Brady but that’s not really much of a core.

That’s the trouble there’s nothing much to keep.
Next year Welsh will be gone and probably so will Myers, they’ll both retire,will Ferrara hang around and would you even want him to ? Welchyka and Brady would be about the only two imports you’d perhaps want to keep.
This perennial excuse of “oh we’re building for next year” just doesn’t wash with me I’m afraid. Players never hang around long enough in Nottingham to build anything on, other than Kowalski I’m struggling to think of an import who stayed more than two years.

*Cough* Corey 😉 *Cough* 😊

But yes, we don't have the best track record of only ever having to tweak the same core of imports a little each year. But then we also don't seem to offer as many multi year deals as some teams

[blackandgold73]

And yes I know the player coach deal muddies the water with Corey but technically he's still an exception 😊

[blackandgold73]

Oct 23, 2022 19:48:27 GMT iginla said:

Oct 23, 2022 19:32:46 GMT The Flying Shirt said:

Not too worried about winning anything this season as this is the latest version of yet another Panthers rebuild. What I’m really looking for is the core to build on at this point. I think Welsh is having a good year but he ends his Uni course in the summer and I’m liking Hammond, Levin and Brady but that’s not really much of a core.

That’s the trouble there’s nothing much to keep.
Next year Welsh will be gone and probably so will Myers, they’ll both retire,will Ferrara hang around and would you even want him to ? Welchyka and Brady would be about the only two imports you’d perhaps want to keep.
This perennial excuse of “oh we’re building for next year” just doesn’t wash with me I’m afraid. Players never hang around long enough in Nottingham to build anything on, other than Kowalski I’m struggling to think of an import who stayed more than two years.

Benedict and Calle are the only other two that come to mind immediately. And the fact I have to think back that far says something. Even Gui was only with a big break in-between his two multi year spells

[iginla]

Oct 23, 2022 20:37:37 GMT blackandgold73 said:

And yes I know the player coach deal muddies the water with Corey but technically he's still an exception 😊

Well yes but would Corey have stayed purely as a player ?
Who knows.
But when you think over the last 15 years or so Panthers must have signed what maybe 200 imports, so to only be able to think of two or three out of all those who have stayed more than two years really is very very poor and says a lot.

[Deleted]

But yet again you are referring to past cultures and panthers only ever signed players to single year contracts. Devils, Steelers and giants sign more players to multi year deals anyway. We'll see how Pacha handles things at the end of this season

[blackandgold73]

Oct 23, 2022 21:01:09 GMT @pidge said:

But yet again you are referring to past cultures and panthers only ever signed players to single year contracts. Devils, Steelers and giants sign more players to multi year deals anyway. We'll see how Pacha handles things at the end of this season

To be fair Pidge we did occasionally sign players to multi-year deals under the old regime, but it was rare and I can't think of an import example of the top of my head. But Clarkie signed a three-year contract extension in the summer of 2012 from memory.

But I'm with you Pidge, what happens from now on is what counts. The past with its glories and its problems is gone now and past comparisons and complaints is crying over spilt milk. So I think you're right, however this season shakes out, the summer will tell us more about how things will be moving forwards with regards to things like this

[iginla]

Oct 23, 2022 21:01:09 GMT @pidge said:

But yet again you are referring to past cultures and panthers only ever signed players to single year contracts. Devils, Steelers and giants sign more players to multi year deals anyway. We'll see how Pacha handles things at the end of this season

Players at other clubs aren’t signed on multi year deals to keep them there for several years,it’s sometimes two years at Uni and that’s it,these players then choose to stay longer.
I’m not even sure there are actually many who stay at other clubs for that long.
The whole “it takes time thing” is just an excuse from teams who keep getting it wrong.
Look at Belfast’s team this year,how many of their imports have been there more than a year plus this season. Not many I bet !

[iginla]

Oct 23, 2022 21:35:15 GMT blackandgold73 said:

Oct 23, 2022 21:01:09 GMT @pidge said:

But yet again you are referring to past cultures and panthers only ever signed players to single year contracts. Devils, Steelers and giants sign more players to multi year deals anyway. We'll see how Pacha handles things at the end of this season

To be fair Pidge we did occasionally sign players to multi-year deals under the old regime, but it was rare and I can't think of an import example of the top of my head. But Clarkie signed a three-year contract extension in the summer of 2012 from memory.

But I'm with you Pidge, what happens from now on is what counts. The past with its glories and its problems is gone now and past comparisons and complaints is crying over spilt milk. So I think you're right, however this season shakes out, the summer will tell us more about how things will be moving forwards with regards to things like this

I see what your saying,but this year isn’t actually a great start is it with regards to building for the future.
We’ve got virtually no imports you’d put money on to be here either next year or in two years.
As for a previous two year deal,I can think of a recent one... Jon Rheault ! 🙈

[Mark]

Wash, rinse, repeat. It's always next season. You've got to give it to Black, he's managed to ride this lie for many a year.

[float]

Oct 23, 2022 20:44:56 GMT blackandgold73 said:

Oct 23, 2022 19:48:27 GMT iginla said:

That’s the trouble there’s nothing much to keep.
Next year Welsh will be gone and probably so will Myers, they’ll both retire,will Ferrara hang around and would you even want him to ? Welchyka and Brady would be about the only two imports you’d perhaps want to keep.
This perennial excuse of “oh we’re building for next year” just doesn’t wash with me I’m afraid. Players never hang around long enough in Nottingham to build anything on, other than Kowalski I’m struggling to think of an import who stayed more than two years.

Benedict and Calle are the only other two that come to mind immediately. And the fact I have to think back that far says something. Even Gui was only with a big break in-between his two multi year spells

I would put an argument for Janssen in here, he signed a 2-year contract extension with us after his first year, but obviously got the media gig. Appreciate that meant he was only here for the 1 year but the club wanted him as the foundation.

I think the argument for not keeping players can be flipped, there hasn't been many times in the last decade we've had a team that we've wanted to keep many players from due to lack of success. The Janssen season was the only one where (I personally think) we had a good squad. Hard to build round players when the success hasn't been here in the first place.

The big missed opportunity for us recently was Sam Herr. We should have chucked the kitchen sink at him to get him to stay.

[bobness]

Oct 24, 2022 12:21:29 GMT float said:

The big missed opportunity for us recently was Sam Herr. We should have chucked the kitchen sink at him to get him to stay.

Agree, but there's some mutuality in anything like that? If the player doesn't want to stay, money isn't everything. But I absolutely agree, Herr was a dominant player in this league, I'd hate to think Panthers let him go for an extra £100 a week.
Cardiff do seem to find players who both perform and are happy to stay put over extended times, and it's suited them well.

[The Flying Shirt]

Oct 24, 2022 12:49:42 GMT bobness said:

Oct 24, 2022 12:21:29 GMT float said:

The big missed opportunity for us recently was Sam Herr. We should have chucked the kitchen sink at him to get him to stay.

Agree, but there's some mutuality in anything like that? If the player doesn't want to stay, money isn't everything. But I absolutely agree, Herr was a dominant player in this league, I'd hate to think Panthers let him go for an extra £100 a week.
Cardiff do seem to find players who both perform and are happy to stay put over extended times, and it's suited them well.

It was interesting to listen to Todd Kelman before a game a couple of years ago about the importance of having a core of players to build around

[yeti]

Corey used to keep a good Core of players. Clark, Myers. Meyers, Farmer, Benedict, Bergin, KWall ect ect. Some maybe for only a couple of years like Fox, DAB, Weaver, Lepine, ect ect but he built his series of winning teams around a core that he tweaked and improved upon until he finally achieved the league. Even his European successes he still had a core of returnees.

Whether this can be achieved again probably depends on Pacha and a coach getting (Graham or another) finding players worth building a core around.

[blackandgold73]

Oct 24, 2022 12:49:42 GMT bobness said:

Oct 24, 2022 12:21:29 GMT float said:

The big missed opportunity for us recently was Sam Herr. We should have chucked the kitchen sink at him to get him to stay.

Agree, but there's some mutuality in anything like that? If the player doesn't want to stay, money isn't everything. But I absolutely agree, Herr was a dominant player in this league, I'd hate to think Panthers let him go for an extra £100 a week.
Cardiff do seem to find players who both perform and are happy to stay put over extended times, and it's suited them well.

Panthers stated that they entered negotiations with Herr in late October about his return for the following year. Apparently a deal was agreed and he committed to only playing for the Panthers *if* he stayed in the UK the following year, ...*if* the big offers from Europe didn't come.

But the offers did come and he signed a letter of intent to move on in July, even whilst recruitment in the ICEHL was embargoed due to the pandemic. So clearly we weren't talking about anything close to Innsbruck offering an extra £100 a week. They wanted him bad to do a deal in the middle of the pandemic and to get him to sign a letter of intent during a recruitment embargo.

www.panthers.co.uk/news/200721-herr

[iginla]

Oct 24, 2022 18:02:26 GMT blackandgold73 said:

Oct 24, 2022 12:49:42 GMT bobness said:

Agree, but there's some mutuality in anything like that? If the player doesn't want to stay, money isn't everything. But I absolutely agree, Herr was a dominant player in this league, I'd hate to think Panthers let him go for an extra £100 a week.
Cardiff do seem to find players who both perform and are happy to stay put over extended times, and it's suited them well.

Panthers stated that they entered negotiations with Herr in late October about his return for the following year. Apparently a deal was agreed and he committed to only playing for the Panthers *if* he stayed in the UK the following year, ...*if* the big offers from Europe didn't come.

But the offers did come and he signed a letter of intent to move on in July, even whilst recruitment in the ICEHL was embargoed due to the pandemic. So clearly we weren't talking about anything close to Innsbruck offering an extra £100 a week. They wanted him bad to do a deal in the middle of the pandemic and to get him to sign a letter of intent during a recruitment embargo.

www.panthers.co.uk/news/200721-herr

And yet for the following two years since his year in Innsbruck he’s ended up in DEL2 where top end salaries are touted as being lower than in the EIHL
It doesn’t make much sense.

[Bagheera]

Oct 24, 2022 19:19:01 GMT iginla said:

Oct 24, 2022 18:02:26 GMT blackandgold73 said:

Panthers stated that they entered negotiations with Herr in late October about his return for the following year. Apparently a deal was agreed and he committed to only playing for the Panthers *if* he stayed in the UK the following year, ...*if* the big offers from Europe didn't come.

But the offers did come and he signed a letter of intent to move on in July, even whilst recruitment in the ICEHL was embargoed due to the pandemic. So clearly we weren't talking about anything close to Innsbruck offering an extra £100 a week. They wanted him bad to do a deal in the middle of the pandemic and to get him to sign a letter of intent during a recruitment embargo.

www.panthers.co.uk/news/200721-herr

And yet for the following two years since his year in Innsbruck he’s ended up in DEL2 where top end salaries are touted as being lower than in the EIHL
It doesn’t make much sense.

I think it's a bigger picture move for him. I'm sure at the time I remember seeing if he played there for 2 years he would then qualify as a non import in DEL1. Currently he would be an import and perhaps not at the level to get a limited DEL import slot. As a non import having impressed in DEL2 he can then step up to DEL demanding a significantly improved wage.

[Bagheera]

Matt Francis was the last player other than Kwall to do 3 consecutive seasons I believe. Lepine in his first spell was the one before that.
Generally speaking it's quite clear most are keen to keep their stay here as short as possible.

[iginla]

Oct 24, 2022 20:15:31 GMT Bagheera said:

Matt Francis was the last player other than Kwall to do 3 consecutive seasons I believe. Lepine in his first spell was the one before that.
Generally speaking it's quite clear most are keen to keep their stay here as short as possible.

There was a reason Matt Francis came back for another year.

[jd]

Oct 24, 2022 20:17:26 GMT iginla said:

Oct 24, 2022 20:15:31 GMT Bagheera said:

Matt Francis was the last player other than Kwall to do 3 consecutive seasons I believe. Lepine in his first spell was the one before that.
Generally speaking it's quite clear most are keen to keep their stay here as short as possible.

There was a reason Matt Francis came back for another year.

Go on then……please inform us who don’t know

[jd]

Oct 24, 2022 17:56:04 GMT yeti said:

Corey used to keep a good Core of players. Clark, Myers. Meyers, Farmer, Benedict, Bergin, KWall ect ect. Some maybe for only a couple of years like Fox, DAB, Weaver, Lepine, ect ect but he built his series of winning teams around a core that he tweaked and improved upon until he finally achieved the league. Even his European successes he still had a core of returnees.

Whether this can be achieved again probably depends on Pacha and a coach getting (Graham or another) finding players worth building a core around.

Corey was good for that tbf - I feel like we are a long way away from what he built

[jd]

Oct 24, 2022 19:19:01 GMT iginla said:

Oct 24, 2022 18:02:26 GMT blackandgold73 said:

Panthers stated that they entered negotiations with Herr in late October about his return for the following year. Apparently a deal was agreed and he committed to only playing for the Panthers *if* he stayed in the UK the following year, ...*if* the big offers from Europe didn't come.

But the offers did come and he signed a letter of intent to move on in July, even whilst recruitment in the ICEHL was embargoed due to the pandemic. So clearly we weren't talking about anything close to Innsbruck offering an extra £100 a week. They wanted him bad to do a deal in the middle of the pandemic and to get him to sign a letter of intent during a recruitment embargo.

www.panthers.co.uk/news/200721-herr

And yet for the following two years since his year in Innsbruck he’s ended up in DEL2 where top end salaries are touted as being lower than in the EIHL
It doesn’t make much sense.

Don’t forget his family play a big part in where he plays. Maybe they are more settled in Ravensburg

[blackandgold73]

Oct 24, 2022 20:11:04 GMT Bagheera said:

Oct 24, 2022 19:19:01 GMT iginla said:

And yet for the following two years since his year in Innsbruck he’s ended up in DEL2 where top end salaries are touted as being lower than in the EIHL
It doesn’t make much sense.

I think it's a bigger picture move for him. I'm sure at the time I remember seeing if he played there for 2 years he would then qualify as a non import in DEL1. Currently he would be an import and perhaps not at the level to get a limited DEL import slot. As a non import having impressed in DEL2 he can then step up to DEL demanding a significantly improved wage.

In fact the touted difference is about €3-5000 (but only at the top end, the DEL2 pays higher at the bottom end and the top end EIHL Brits are likely the highest value commodity here due to scarcity). Plus, that doesn't include the fact that some European leagues pay their import players tax free, which can make a significant difference even if the initial salary is lower on paper.

And as the 3rd highest goal scorer in the DEL2 last year I'd imagine he'd have to be earning top whack in the DEL2 range to have been retained - his deal was signed early too to prevent him being poached in the off season.

Since the resolution of the dispute between the governing bodies the DEL2 also now offers the chance of promotion to the DEL for the champions.

As the ICEHL can indeed offer significantly higher earning potential than the DEL2 (but for proven top end talent and perhaps not first year coming from the EIHL) I'd imagine it was a big picture decision on Herr's part to switch, his first season production was top 25 in the ICEHL after all.

But being top 3 in the DEL2 will definitely get you looked at by the DEL if you replicate it in a way that top 25 in the ICEHL might not.

[blackandgold73]

Oct 24, 2022 19:19:01 GMT iginla said:

Oct 24, 2022 18:02:26 GMT blackandgold73 said:

Panthers stated that they entered negotiations with Herr in late October about his return for the following year. Apparently a deal was agreed and he committed to only playing for the Panthers *if* he stayed in the UK the following year, ...*if* the big offers from Europe didn't come.

But the offers did come and he signed a letter of intent to move on in July, even whilst recruitment in the ICEHL was embargoed due to the pandemic. So clearly we weren't talking about anything close to Innsbruck offering an extra £100 a week. They wanted him bad to do a deal in the middle of the pandemic and to get him to sign a letter of intent during a recruitment embargo.

www.panthers.co.uk/news/200721-herr

And yet for the following two years since his year in Innsbruck he’s ended up in DEL2 where top end salaries are touted as being lower than in the EIHL
It doesn’t make much sense.

Probably the most important thing to remember Iggy is that your last sentence is actually that "It doesn't make much sense...to me". And that it doesn't need to.

It only has to make sense to Herr.

Not me, not you, not anyone else. And beyond that fact of it making sense to Herr then anything else is just speculation or even worse in danger of reading onto events to fit a narrative.

Brett Bulmers career trajectory might not (on paper) seem to make much sense to an outsider, but it clearly does to him, and multiple coaches have now said that he was willing to take a pay cut because he just loves to play and to be on a team where he can score. He'd rather earn less it seems and play and score more than earn more and play less.

So as long as it makes sense to Herr the rest of us don't matter and, as always, speculation about salary is just that. Speculation.

[iginla]

Oct 24, 2022 23:00:40 GMT blackandgold73 said:

Oct 24, 2022 19:19:01 GMT iginla said:

And yet for the following two years since his year in Innsbruck he’s ended up in DEL2 where top end salaries are touted as being lower than in the EIHL
It doesn’t make much sense.

Probably the most important thing to remember Iggy is that your last sentence is actually that "It doesn't make much sense...to me". And that it doesn't need to.

It only has to make sense to Herr.

Not me, not you, not anyone else. And beyond that fact of it making sense to Herr then anything else is just speculation or even worse in danger of reading onto events to fit a narrative.

Brett Bulmers career trajectory might not (on paper) seem to make much sense to an outsider, but it clearly does to him, and multiple coaches have now said that he was willing to take a pay cut because he just loves to play and to be on a team where he can score. He'd rather earn less it seems and play and score more than earn more and play less.

So as long as it makes sense to Herr the rest of us don't matter and, as always, speculation about salary is just that. Speculation.

And quite right it’s up to the player where he plays and what for.
Just makes me laugh when you get an article saying he isn’t coming back because he’s hoping/signing/moving for the big leagues then ends up in DEL2 which is basically the EIHL in German.