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Post by Bagheera on May 22, 2021 10:08:12 GMT
So if, and it is a if our owners take very little out of the club, but decide to plough most of it back into the club is that also wrong, just wondering what’s your take on that. It depends on a number of factors. Is there no wage cap/gentlemans agreement? Are other teams likely to walk away should the gap just becomes to big? Have the board had all these chats and all clubs agree it's o.k with the smaller clubs just happy to plod along taking handouts to survive? If others are doing it then of course it'd be nice to see Panthers doing it to keep up, but it's been mentioned already. Do we want to end up where we were at the end of the ISL days? Just spending whatever you want and blowing the small teams out of the water will only lead that eventually im sure. Bring on a european league and let's stop being a few big fish in a small sport. This isn't football btw, it's a franchise based, minority sport. Let the small clubs holding the big ones back. They hold the big clubs to ransom most of the time anyway. Let's go play where real sponsorship money and tv revenue helps you improve your product.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2021 10:16:21 GMT
Like I've said and I will continue to say all pretty pointless unless 4/5 teams keep up with them. Let them crack on 😂 These owners have no regard for keeping the league competitive then .. one thing is their coach has a lot of pressure to deliver instantly.... I imagine Sheff will have a go, they were in the same ballpark two yrs ago. Cardiff's owners want to win, they like winning. If this means outspending the rest of the league then so be it from their point of view. Until they get bored.. eventually something will give.. it always does That attitude will pretty much divide the league but no one actually backs anything up with certain figures on here so it's all pointless .. has anyone actually said what Cardiff spend or just presume they spend the most.. same with Sheffield . Back in 2001/2 Patrick wallenberg was a 'budget' signing and amongst the top players in the league that year .
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Jord v4
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Post by Jord v4 on May 22, 2021 10:21:58 GMT
I imagine Sheff will have a go, they were in the same ballpark two yrs ago. Cardiff's owners want to win, they like winning. If this means outspending the rest of the league then so be it from their point of view. Until they get bored.. eventually something will give.. it always does That attitude will pretty much divide the league but no one actually backs anything up with certain figures on here so it's all pointless .. has anyone actually said what Cardiff spend or just presume they spend the most.. same with Sheffield . Back in 2001/2 Patrick wallenberg was a 'budget' signing and amongst the top players in the league that year . Depends if you trust in the ITK element I guess... That is entirely your prerogative. Jordan Belfort 'One thing I can promise you, even in this market, is that I never ask my clients to judge me on my winners. I ask them to judge me on my losers because I have so few'.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2021 10:22:05 GMT
So if, and it is a if our owners take very little out of the club, but decide to plough most of it back into the club is that also wrong, just wondering what’s your take on that. It depends on a number of factors. Is there no wage cap/gentlemans agreement? Are other teams likely to walk away should the gap just becomes to big? Have the board had all these chats and all clubs agree it's o.k with the smaller clubs just happy to plod along taking handouts to survive? If others are doing it then of course it'd be nice to see Panthers doing it to keep up, but it's been mentioned already. Do we want to end up where we were at the end of the ISL days? Just spending whatever you want and blowing the small teams out of the water will only lead that eventually im sure. Bring on a european league and let's stop being a few big fish in a small sport. This isn't football btw, it's a franchise based, minority sport. Let the small clubs holding the big ones back. They hold the big clubs to ransom most of the time anyway. Let's go play where real sponsorship money and tv revenue helps you improve your product. Exactly my thoughts .. you either pay in line which keeps the league competitive or breakaway and join better leagues with teams who want to spend on your level and often alot more too. But staying as this where 3 teams are litterally outspending teams to the max is utterly pointless in the long term .. As things stand there's no chance of the likes of Fife to ever win any silverware. They are purely filling the gaps and making the numbers up to make it a 10 team league
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iginla
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Post by iginla on May 22, 2021 10:22:53 GMT
So if, and it is a if our owners take very little out of the club, but decide to plough most of it back into the club is that also wrong, just wondering what’s your take on that. No it’s not wrong,It’s what people who genuinely want to win do. As opposed to owners who just pay lip service to pretending they want to win but only really care about their bottom line and don’t spend what they could.
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Jord v4
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Post by Jord v4 on May 22, 2021 10:24:50 GMT
It depends on a number of factors. Is there no wage cap/gentlemans agreement? Are other teams likely to walk away should the gap just becomes to big? Have the board had all these chats and all clubs agree it's o.k with the smaller clubs just happy to plod along taking handouts to survive? If others are doing it then of course it'd be nice to see Panthers doing it to keep up, but it's been mentioned already. Do we want to end up where we were at the end of the ISL days? Just spending whatever you want and blowing the small teams out of the water will only lead that eventually im sure. Bring on a european league and let's stop being a few big fish in a small sport. This isn't football btw, it's a franchise based, minority sport. Let the small clubs holding the big ones back. They hold the big clubs to ransom most of the time anyway. Let's go play where real sponsorship money and tv revenue helps you improve your product. Exactly my thoughts .. you either pay in line which keeps the league competitive or breakaway and join better leagues with teams who want to spend on your level and often alot more too. But staying as this where 3 teams are litterally outspending teams to the max is utterly pointless in the long term .. As things stand there's no chance of the likes of Fife to ever win any silverware. They are purely filling the gaps and making the numbers up to make it a 10 team league Is this not the same situation in all sports with no fixed wage structures? The ones spending the most and putting the most in from their own pockets are frequently the winners. You will always have also-rans under this structure.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2021 10:27:29 GMT
But then if you had 2/3 owners who are in a arms race that will only end in disaster and tears.. #islmark2
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Jord v4
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Post by Jord v4 on May 22, 2021 10:27:43 GMT
So if, and it is a if our owners take very little out of the club, but decide to plough most of it back into the club is that also wrong, just wondering what’s your take on that. No it’s not wrong,It’s what people who genuinely want to win do. As opposed to owners who just pay lip service to pretending they want to win but only really care about their bottom line and don’t spend what they could. Agreed, nothing wrong with this at all as long as it isn't pushed to ridiculous extremes. If you overspend or the entire league falls apart don't come crying, not that I expect that at all as Cardiff's owners seem a very intellectual bunch.
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Jord v4
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Post by Jord v4 on May 22, 2021 10:29:22 GMT
But then if you had 2/3 owners who are in a arms race that will only end in disaster and tears.. #islmark2 Which is why it cannot become an arms race as such. The level to which the boundary is pushed by initially Cardiff is crucial. If they go too far with this then I agree trouble is afoot.... But I really doubt they will, they are a smart group.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2021 10:31:44 GMT
Exactly my thoughts .. you either pay in line which keeps the league competitive or breakaway and join better leagues with teams who want to spend on your level and often alot more too. But staying as this where 3 teams are litterally outspending teams to the max is utterly pointless in the long term .. As things stand there's no chance of the likes of Fife to ever win any silverware. They are purely filling the gaps and making the numbers up to make it a 10 team league Is this not the same situation in all sports with no fixed wage structures? The ones spending the most and putting the most in from their own pockets are frequently the winners. You will always have also-rans under this structure. Difference is there's more of a leveller in most other sports.. because the lesser teams do generate money to at least he competitive.. look at the EPL.. The likes of Leicester and West Ham breaking into the top 6 consistently
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2021 10:33:25 GMT
But then if you had 2/3 owners who are in a arms race that will only end in disaster and tears.. #islmark2 Which is why it cannot become an arms race as such. The level to which the boundary is pushed by initially Cardiff is crucial. If they go too far with this then I agree trouble is afoot.... But I really doubt they will, they are a smart group. They don't care, you just have to see some of the stuff their owner King writes .. I think this is only going in one direction
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Jord v4
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Post by Jord v4 on May 22, 2021 10:40:58 GMT
Is this not the same situation in all sports with no fixed wage structures? The ones spending the most and putting the most in from their own pockets are frequently the winners. You will always have also-rans under this structure. Difference is there's more of a leveller in most other sports.. because the lesser teams do generate money to at least he competitive.. look at the EPL.. The likes of Leicester and West Ham breaking into the top 6 consistently English football is a bad example imo, the money in that environment cannot be applied to any other sport is any other country. It's obscene.
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Post by Jord v4 on May 22, 2021 10:44:04 GMT
Which is why it cannot become an arms race as such. The level to which the boundary is pushed by initially Cardiff is crucial. If they go too far with this then I agree trouble is afoot.... But I really doubt they will, they are a smart group. They don't care, you just have to see some of the stuff their owner King writes .. I think this is only going in one direction King wants to win, he enjoys winning. Let's see how far they push the envelope. If it is to the detriment of the rest of the league then more fool them. I understand your issue with them entirely. Personally though I'm with Iggy on this one. The owners of certain teams in the EIHL need to be challenged and if this is what it takes to challenge them then so be it.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2021 10:54:37 GMT
They don't care, you just have to see some of the stuff their owner King writes .. I think this is only going in one direction King wants to win, he enjoys winning. Let's see how far they push the envelope. If it is to the detriment of the rest of the league then more fool them. I understand your issue with them entirely. Personally though I'm with Iggy on this one. The owners of certain teams in the EIHL need to be challenged and if this is what it takes to challenge them then so be it. What Cardiff are doing won't push other owners though they could litterally be left on their own . Certain owners won't change their business model and tbh it's their club and they can do as they want even though it will miff some of their fanbase
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Post by wannabe2 on May 22, 2021 10:59:38 GMT
But our owners do care, do they want to win Duh yes, are they smart enough to not want the league to crumble Duh yes, would they like to see the league improving its product Duh yes, are they clever enough to know we need each other Duh yes. As for ending in disaster and tears the EIHL has been around now since 2003, Thats 18 yrs not 5 mins I would say lighten up Pidge but that would be like hitting my head against a wooden block. Stay Safe All.
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Jord v4
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Post by Jord v4 on May 22, 2021 11:02:56 GMT
King wants to win, he enjoys winning. Let's see how far they push the envelope. If it is to the detriment of the rest of the league then more fool them. I understand your issue with them entirely. Personally though I'm with Iggy on this one. The owners of certain teams in the EIHL need to be challenged and if this is what it takes to challenge them then so be it. What Cardiff are doing won't push other owners though they could litterally be left on their own . Certain owners won't change their business model and tbh it's their club and they can do as they want even though it will miff some of their fanbase Some owners will, Sheffield for example spent more on player budget two years ago as an example. I agree with you it's a dangerous game but how else can certain owners be challenged on their business models? The fans have no power, we all know that. It takes something else to improve the quality of product on display for Ice Hockey in this country.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2021 11:04:31 GMT
But our owners do care, do they want to win Duh yes, are they smart enough to not want the league to crumble Duh yes, would they like to see the league improving its product Duh yes, are they clever enough to know we need each other Duh yes. As for ending in disaster and tears the EIHL has been around now since 2003, Thats 18 yrs not 5 mins I would say lighten up Pidge but that would be like hitting my head against a wooden block. Stay Safe All. You need to open your eyes .. stay safe btw
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2021 11:08:10 GMT
What Cardiff are doing won't push other owners though they could litterally be left on their own . Certain owners won't change their business model and tbh it's their club and they can do as they want even though it will miff some of their fanbase Some owners will, Sheffield for example spent more on player budget two years ago as an example. I agree with you it's a dangerous game but how else can certain owners be challenged on their business models? The fans have no power, we all know that. It takes something else to improve the quality of product on display for Ice Hockey in this country. Perhaps if they want to spend loads... Perhaps buy a DEL team then they can spend more of their money and will get challenged more than they are likely to in this league .. my opinion
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Jord v4
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Post by Jord v4 on May 22, 2021 11:16:08 GMT
Some owners will, Sheffield for example spent more on player budget two years ago as an example. I agree with you it's a dangerous game but how else can certain owners be challenged on their business models? The fans have no power, we all know that. It takes something else to improve the quality of product on display for Ice Hockey in this country. Perhaps if they want to spend loads... Perhaps buy a DEL team then they can spend more of their money and will get challenged more than they are likely to in this league .. my opinion Fair enough. Maybe they want to help Ice Hockey in this country. Maybe they want to trample over all opposition (non CHL). That's their choice I guess. I agree there's a fine line to improving the league/making a mockery of the competition. Do enough people really care for the latter though? We're a minority sport & possibly always will be.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2021 11:36:54 GMT
Perhaps if they want to spend loads... Perhaps buy a DEL team then they can spend more of their money and will get challenged more than they are likely to in this league .. my opinion Fair enough. Maybe they want to help Ice Hockey in this country. Maybe they want to trample over all opposition (non CHL). That's their choice I guess. I agree there's a fine line to improving the league/making a mockery of the competition. Do enough people really care for the latter though? We're a minority sport & possibly always will be. Oh without doubt the sport will always be minority in this country. Not sure how spending loads will improve the league long term .. perhaps I just want more of a level playing field .
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iginla
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Post by iginla on May 22, 2021 12:00:08 GMT
King wants to win, he enjoys winning. Let's see how far they push the envelope. If it is to the detriment of the rest of the league then more fool them. I understand your issue with them entirely. Personally though I'm with Iggy on this one. The owners of certain teams in the EIHL need to be challenged and if this is what it takes to challenge them then so be it. What Cardiff are doing won't push other owners though they could litterally be left on their own . Certain owners won't change their business model and tbh it's their club and they can do as they want even though it will miff some of their fanbase That’s true,let Cardiff spend what they like,Black and Smith won’t follow suit to a ridiculously high level and nor should they. What grates with me is reading stuff from teams that they’re supposedly doing all they can and are apparently in it to win,seem to expect the fans to have unlimited money to spend on tickets,merch and countless raffles etc but then said team obviously don’t spend anywhere near what they could themselves.
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Jord v4
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Post by Jord v4 on May 22, 2021 12:16:13 GMT
What Cardiff are doing won't push other owners though they could litterally be left on their own . Certain owners won't change their business model and tbh it's their club and they can do as they want even though it will miff some of their fanbase That’s true,let Cardiff spend what they like,Black and Smith won’t follow suit to a ridiculously high level and nor should they. What grates with me is reading stuff from teams that they’re supposedly doing all they can and are apparently in it to win,seem to expect the fans to have unlimited money to spend on tickets,merch and countless raffles etc but then said team obviously don’t spend anywhere near what they could themselves. This is the problem Iggy, which is why I welcome what the Cardiff owners are doing as long as they do it properly. As I said yesterday, the status quo needs to be challenged but in the correct manner.
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Jord v4
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Post by Jord v4 on May 22, 2021 12:19:59 GMT
Fair enough. Maybe they want to help Ice Hockey in this country. Maybe they want to trample over all opposition (non CHL). That's their choice I guess. I agree there's a fine line to improving the league/making a mockery of the competition. Do enough people really care for the latter though? We're a minority sport & possibly always will be. Oh without doubt the sport will always be minority in this country. Not sure how spending loads will improve the league long term .. perhaps I just want more of a level playing field . If it means some of the other teams spend what they can to compete more then it's a good thing. This is the balance that has to be met. We don't want teams bringing out the begging buckets again but we do want a better level of hockey for all. Understand you completely over the level playing field. If I was a paying fan every week I would definitely want the same. Whilst these certain owners are here though I possibly can't see that happening, they are some distance apart on how to run their businesses. Personally I hope Cardiff's success embarrasses a few of them in to putting more of the earned money in to the on ice side.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2021 12:55:10 GMT
Oh without doubt the sport will always be minority in this country. Not sure how spending loads will improve the league long term .. perhaps I just want more of a level playing field . If it means some of the other teams spend what they can to compete more then it's a good thing. This is the balance that has to be met. We don't want teams bringing out the begging buckets again but we do want a better level of hockey for all. Understand you completely over the level playing field. If I was a paying fan every week I would definitely want the same. Whilst these certain owners are here though I possibly can't see that happening, they are some distance apart on how to run their businesses. Personally I hope Cardiff's success embarrasses a few of them in to putting more of the earned money in to the on ice side. Don't forget Black has been on the British hockey scene for over 20 years when the likes of Sheffield Belfast Ayr etc were spending money like water and he then never really upped the ante
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Post by kievthegreat on May 22, 2021 12:56:30 GMT
So if, and it is a if our owners take very little out of the club, but decide to plough most of it back into the club is that also wrong, just wondering what’s your take on that. It depends on a number of factors. Is there no wage cap/gentlemans agreement? Are other teams likely to walk away should the gap just becomes to big? Have the board had all these chats and all clubs agree it's o.k with the smaller clubs just happy to plod along taking handouts to survive? If others are doing it then of course it'd be nice to see Panthers doing it to keep up, but it's been mentioned already. Do we want to end up where we were at the end of the ISL days? Just spending whatever you want and blowing the small teams out of the water will only lead that eventually im sure. Bring on a european league and let's stop being a few big fish in a small sport. This isn't football btw, it's a franchise based, minority sport. Let the small clubs holding the big ones back. They hold the big clubs to ransom most of the time anyway. Let's go play where real sponsorship money and tv revenue helps you improve your product. A European League is something that comes up quite a lot and I can't understand why there would be any appetite for it? Are DEL, SHL, Liiga and NLA actually wanting this? And if for some reason they did, why would they care about some poxy British teams? The closest I think you'd get is if Tilburg wanted to join the EIHL as the DEL seems to have locked them out of the higher divisions.
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