loupowell52
Robert Lachowicz
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Post by loupowell52 on Jun 24, 2019 6:33:19 GMT
For Goodness Sake. Give the new goalie, and the overall recruitment a break. Comparing this stat and that stat really is pointless. Wait until Carr has shown his worth in game situations. I happen to believe that he could be an above average player in our league and hope that the best majority of supporters will give him their full backing. Some of the regular "contributors" on The Cage seem to want individual players and the team in general to fail. Put up or shut up. Appears a number do not even attend live games.
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nottinghamsenator
Robert Lachowicz
How much wood could a Tkachuk chuck if a Tkachuk could chuck wood?
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Post by nottinghamsenator on Jun 24, 2019 6:51:51 GMT
Presumably those putting their faith purely in statistics to condemn Carr think Patrick Munson was basically Patrick Roy then with a regular save percentage of .932? No? Stats are a guide that you will never get the full picture or context from.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Jun 24, 2019 8:24:38 GMT
Presumably those putting their faith purely in statistics to condemn Carr think Patrick Munson was basically Patrick Roy then with a regular save percentage of .932? No? Stats are a guide that you will never get the full picture or context from. I’m not condemning Carr I haven’t commented on any player good or bad I’ve just given stats here to compare two goalies with very similar pro careers and number of ECHL games. Stats are all we have to go on and Carr’s are not as good as Parleys who turned out to be total pants. Wallace says Carr is good,but Neilson knew Parley and said he was good too. Kowalski’s stats were only average but he turned out to be excellent after a shaky start. So basically,it seems to be almost pot luck whether you sign good,bad or just get lucky so we might as well all stop wasting our time as those who say he’s good or bad are simply guessing.
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jun 24, 2019 8:26:00 GMT
Plenty of hyperbole this morning. With the one obvious, tiresome and inevitable exception, has he been "condemned"?
People are happy for phrases like "unearthed a gem" to be used, which to me seems as helpful in the expectation raising stakes as the Panthers' Taylor Swift gif collection, but the opposite, less rosy view - which is based on the only evidence really available to us, however flawed it may be - isn't allowed any sort of representation?
Will be very quiet round here at this time of year if we're not allowed any discussion without first seeing them play.
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jun 24, 2019 8:27:50 GMT
By digging up Davis Parley, the last netty we had to shelve after about 5 minutes? Come off it.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Jun 24, 2019 8:52:46 GMT
By digging up Davis Parley, the last netty we had to shelve after about 5 minutes? Come off it. Have you read my post properly, I haven’t condemned any signing,I’ve no idea whether he’ll be good or bad and neither has anybody else. Those saying we might have a gem are guessing and anybody writing him off is guessing too. I haven’t commented on any signing this year,I just dug up some stats to try prove the point in this case.
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Post by spik on Jun 24, 2019 8:53:48 GMT
Stats are just stats that are historical. I ran a good marathon last year but.....
Edit : Just a statement, not answering anyone here.
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nottinghamsenator
Robert Lachowicz
How much wood could a Tkachuk chuck if a Tkachuk could chuck wood?
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Post by nottinghamsenator on Jun 24, 2019 9:08:30 GMT
Plenty of hyperbole this morning. With the one obvious, tiresome and inevitable exception, has he been "condemned"? People are happy for phrases like "unearthed a gem" to be used, which to me seems as helpful in the expectation raising stakes as the Panthers' Taylor Swift gif collection, but the opposite, less rosy view - which is based on the only evidence really available to us, however flawed it may be - isn't allowed any sort of representation? Will be very quiet round here at this time of year if we're not allowed any discussion without first seeing them play. Of course it's allowed and I would encourage it. But I'm just referring to the reliance on pure stats like save percentage being used without the addition of contextual statistics. For example, Carr has consistently played for teams that have missed the playoffs finished rock bottom like at Zagreb. This clearly means he is facing an inordinate amount of shots (as is obvious from his 90% average despite conceding 3.3 goals a game at Zagreb) and likely a number from great positions on the ice yet maintains a 90%+ save percentage. He's never really played in a team that should be looking up the table with more capable defences. This may be for a whole host of reasons that may become apparent when he plays for us. The +- record on his sides don't make for the best reading. What I'm trying to say is, if we're gonna use stats let's use them all or as many as we can to come to a judgement or at least try to contextualise them in some kind of roster/league/player scenario. But as much as I love stats, like I say they are only ever a guide and sometimes it's the intangibles that make the difference. EDIT: Just noticed Zagreb did ok (though still <50% win) the season he was there, but the wider point stands
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jun 24, 2019 9:34:56 GMT
Fair point, and good analysis. Could raise a question of why no one has seen his efforts on bad teams and signed him for better ones - like the MK guy everyone was so keen on - although that comes back to Shaggy's point regarding opportunity, and being in the right place at the right time, which is also entirely valid. Let's hope he's not on a team at the wrong end of the table next year
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jun 24, 2019 9:37:49 GMT
By digging up Davis Parley, the last netty we had to shelve after about 5 minutes? Come off it. Have you read my post properly, I haven’t condemned any signing,I’ve no idea whether he’ll be good or bad and neither has anybody else. Those saying we might have a gem are guessing and anybody writing him off is guessing too. I haven’t commented on any signing this year,I just dug up some stats to try prove the point in this case. You knew what you were doing mentioning him. Why not compare him to Michel Robinson who replaced Davis (better stats for Carr I'd say), or The Saint (again, better, IMO)? You picked out the last truly bad netminder we had.
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nottinghamsenator
Robert Lachowicz
How much wood could a Tkachuk chuck if a Tkachuk could chuck wood?
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Post by nottinghamsenator on Jun 24, 2019 9:41:20 GMT
Fair point, and good analysis. Could raise a question of why no one has seen his efforts on bad teams and signed him for better ones - like the MK guy everyone was so keen on - although that comes back to Shaggy's point regarding opportunity, and being in the right place at the right time, which is also entirely valid. Let's hope he's not on a team at the wrong end of the table next year Absolutely, which is where the whole intangible, compatibility and chemistry aspects all come in as you say. I think Meadow brought it up earlier too, the ECHL is an absolute bloodbath career wise. Especially for goaltenders as NHL/AHL teams often loan out their prospects there, with them only coming of age much later in a career. You're practically fighting for every minute you get which may explain why good players end up at lowly sides based purely on it being the only gig they can get.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 9:46:01 GMT
Exactly right and shows the basis lack of knowledge on here of how the minors system works in N.A..
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Post by Bagheera on Jun 24, 2019 10:12:08 GMT
Plenty of hyperbole this morning. With the one obvious, tiresome and inevitable exception, has he been "condemned"? People are happy for phrases like "unearthed a gem" to be used, which to me seems as helpful in the expectation raising stakes as the Panthers' Taylor Swift gif collection, but the opposite, less rosy view - which is based on the only evidence really available to us, however flawed it may be - isn't allowed any sort of representation? Will be very quiet round here at this time of year if we're not allowed any discussion without first seeing them play. Spot on post. I've been thinking something similar the last few weeks. The old "you havn't played the game so you arn't entitled to an opinion" only appears to come out when people are critisising. How often is that fired back when an armchair fan is giving praise or positive feedback?
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Jun 24, 2019 10:37:25 GMT
Have you read my post properly, I haven’t condemned any signing,I’ve no idea whether he’ll be good or bad and neither has anybody else. Those saying we might have a gem are guessing and anybody writing him off is guessing too. I haven’t commented on any signing this year,I just dug up some stats to try prove the point in this case. You knew what you were doing mentioning him. Why not compare him to Michel Robinson who replaced Davis (better stats for Carr I'd say), or The Saint (again, better, IMO)? You picked out the last truly bad netminder we had. Well ok compare Carr to Robinson or St Pierre then and those three sets of stats would suggest Carr is bang average,because whilst they were both ok neither Robinson or St Pierre were stellar. If I’d compared those three together you would have said I was criticising Carr,which I’m not.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 10:55:22 GMT
You still miss the point Iginla netminder stats only tell barely half the story if we sign a nettie who's been on struggling teams most of his career he will have worse stats than netties who have been on teams challenging for championships etc. They ll face more shots and be behind worse d men.
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Jun 24, 2019 11:21:31 GMT
You still miss the point Iginla netminder stats only tell barely half the story if we sign a nettie who's been on struggling teams most of his career he will have worse stats than netties who have been on teams challenging for championships etc. They ll face more shots and be behind worse d men. I’m not missing any point I understand that. I’m just saying it’s a lottery because of the four goalies mentioned above, all with similar stats there is only one we would say is a championship goalie and that’s because we’ve seen him do it. If all we had to go on was prior stats then they’re all much on a par. How can somebody say “I think we’ve got a gem” when Carr’s stats are no better than the other three ? They’re are purely guessing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 11:31:04 GMT
You still miss the point Iginla netminder stats only tell barely half the story if we sign a nettie who's been on struggling teams most of his career he will have worse stats than netties who have been on teams challenging for championships etc. They ll face more shots and be behind worse d men. I’m not missing any point I understand that. I’m just saying it’s a lottery because of the four goalies mentioned above, all with similar stats there is only one we would say is a championship goalie and that’s because we’ve seen him do it. If all we had to go on was prior stats then they’re all much on a par. How can somebody say “I think we’ve got a gem” when Carr’s stats are no better than the other three ? They’re are purely guessing. Yes, ‘I think we’ve got a gem’. The key words here are “I think” ie it is my opinion. I base this on the fact that his save percentage stats are incredibly consistent and his play-off stats (apart from his season in Zagreb) are also very good, 93.5% this season just gone for example, which suggests he plays well under pressure. Now I could be completely wrong, thems the breaks with opinions.
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Post by texpef on Jun 24, 2019 11:46:42 GMT
IMHO this is the MOST important position on the ice and as such should be reflected in the quality of the signing for this position..
After all the hype regarding Taylor this signing can be nothing but a disappointment and I don't mean any disrespect to the lad but he has played where he has played and got the stats he has got.. If he was better he would be in the NHL afterall no one would be complaining if corey price was coming next season as HIS pedigree (stats and all) are a lot better...
People say stats don't mean anything but if that was the case then the draft selection process wouldn't matter in the NHL and any player could go to any club. Sometimes the clubs do get it wrong and it can work both ways players aren't as good as they should be eg Garnett and sometimes a lot better than you think such as kwall...
I know people aren't machines but in life you get what you pay for... pay for a AHL player that's what you get, pay for a ECHL player and you get that... It would be great to compare but I BELIEVE if we sign a team of high pedigree players, stats or not, they would more often than not perform better than their lower league equivalents.
Good luck Carr but you are what you are, an average for our league netminder, I hope you do really well but at the moment thats all it is a hope, against what is likely to be a middling performance from a middling nettie . My expectations are nothing more than that and to be honest I think as the best supported and in all likelihood richest club in the country I really hoped and expected better...
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jun 24, 2019 12:23:03 GMT
IMHO this is the MOST important position on the ice and as such should be reflected in the quality of the signing for this position.. After all the hype regarding Taylor this signing can be nothing but a disappointment and I don't mean any disrespect to the lad but he has played where he has played and got the stats he has got.. If he was better he would be in the NHL afterall no one would be complaining if corey price was coming next season as HIS pedigree (stats and all) are a lot better... People say stats don't mean anything but if that was the case then the draft selection process wouldn't matter in the NHL and any player could go to any club. Sometimes the clubs do get it wrong and it can work both ways players aren't as good as they should be eg Garnett and sometimes a lot better than you think such as kwall... I know people aren't machines but in life you get what you pay for... pay for a AHL player that's what you get, pay for a ECHL player and you get that... It would be great to compare but I BELIEVE if we sign a team of high pedigree players, stats or not, they would more often than not perform better than their lower league equivalents. Good luck Carr but you are what you are, an average for our league netminder, I hope you do really well but at the moment thats all it is a hope, against what is likely to be a middling performance from a middling nettie . My expectations are nothing more than that and to be honest I think as the best supported and in all likelihood richest club in the country I really hoped and expected better... while I agree that the goalie position is important, I would much rather have more money spent on top end forwards because I feel they can make more of a difference
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nottinghamsenator
Robert Lachowicz
How much wood could a Tkachuk chuck if a Tkachuk could chuck wood?
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Post by nottinghamsenator on Jun 24, 2019 12:43:49 GMT
IMHO this is the MOST important position on the ice and as such should be reflected in the quality of the signing for this position.. After all the hype regarding Taylor this signing can be nothing but a disappointment and I don't mean any disrespect to the lad but he has played where he has played and got the stats he has got.. If he was better he would be in the NHL afterall no one would be complaining if corey price was coming next season as HIS pedigree (stats and all) are a lot better... People say stats don't mean anything but if that was the case then the draft selection process wouldn't matter in the NHL and any player could go to any club. Sometimes the clubs do get it wrong and it can work both ways players aren't as good as they should be eg Garnett and sometimes a lot better than you think such as kwall... I know people aren't machines but in life you get what you pay for... pay for a AHL player that's what you get, pay for a ECHL player and you get that... It would be great to compare but I BELIEVE if we sign a team of high pedigree players, stats or not, they would more often than not perform better than their lower league equivalents. Good luck Carr but you are what you are, an average for our league netminder, I hope you do really well but at the moment thats all it is a hope, against what is likely to be a middling performance from a middling nettie . My expectations are nothing more than that and to be honest I think as the best supported and in all likelihood richest club in the country I really hoped and expected better... I don't think anyone's saying they don't mean anything, they do and can be used as a guide when looking at players from the bottom to the top of the ladder. It's interesting you bring up the draft because I'd say it's a perfect example of why stats can't be considered alone, and why NHL scouts don't just log onto Elite Prospects. It's about size, skating, puck handling, hockey sense, responsibility, leadership, positioning, reactions, bad habits and good habits. All things which cannot be given a stat. The two first Rounders we've had recently, Zack Phillips and Tyler Biggs were infuriating to watch because their talent was buried under lack of appetite, laziness or lack of discipline. Brady Tkachuk scored just 8 goals in his draft year, yet managed 20 for the Sens in his first season, with the Senators being by far the worst team in the league. Filip Zadina on the other hand a "natural" goalscorer managed just one and got sent down to the AHL. Goaltenders in particular, get drafted late and start their careers later because their stats often make it hard to get an handle on their true potential and aren't a reliable guide. There's only been 3 drafted first overall and two were complete busts. Price himself recorded a sub 90% average with Hamilton in 2008 before recording 92% with Montreal in the big league the same year. Carter Hart has better save percentage with the Flyers than he does in the AHL. Since 2000, goalies drafted in round 7 save more shots in the NHL than those drafted in round 1,2 and 3. I've seen Danny Taylor play in the NHL, and he looked absolutely dreadful. But that's because contextually he was playing on a bad team and that level is beyond him. It doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad goal tender, which is backed up by his record in an non-NHL setting. Now I've not seen Carr, but his stats suggest he's performing above what you'd expect him to given the team he is playing with. He easily outperformed Rumpel by a considerable margin when they played on the same team across a larger sample size too. So he's got the potential to do well here, but he could go either way based on any number of contextual issue surrounding him or the fact that he just doesn't perform. (I.E if we have pylons backing him up.)
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Post by nightwish on Jun 24, 2019 12:51:30 GMT
Think I will do something left - field , I will watch him play for a good few games and make a judgement then. Call me old fashioned....
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Post by texpef on Jun 24, 2019 13:43:00 GMT
Think I will do something left - field , I will watch him play for a good few games and make a judgement then. Call me old fashioned.... Which being a panthers fan is what we all can do and as stated I hope he performs like a star and becomes the next Nottingham hero.... Let me put it to you another way, regardless of stats and all the other factors on show if you were given the choice of an ex NHL goalie, an ex AHL goalie or an ex ECHL goalie isn't exactly rocket science which you are most likely to choose is it and its because playing at a higher level is because you expect the player to be better ON AVERAGE i.e. 99 times out of 100... Oh and Joe... you are making the assumption that any money saved on not bringing in what is likely a more expensive goalie will be spent elsewhere and not just banked.... heres hoping eh
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jun 24, 2019 14:01:57 GMT
Think I will do something left - field , I will watch him play for a good few games and make a judgement then. Call me old fashioned.... Which being a panthers fan is what we all can do and as stated I hope he performs like a star and becomes the next Nottingham hero.... Let me put it to you another way, regardless of stats and all the other factors on show if you were given the choice of an ex NHL goalie, an ex AHL goalie or an ex ECHL goalie isn't exactly rocket science which you are most likely to choose is it and its because playing at a higher level is because you expect the player to be better ON AVERAGE i.e. 99 times out of 100... Oh and Joe... you are making the assumption that any money saved on not bringing in what is likely a more expensive goalie will be spent elsewhere and not just banked.... heres hoping eh well I highly doubt Black divides the budget in to 3 categories, Doucet gets the budget and it is then up to him on how he spends it
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iginla
Chick Zamick
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Post by iginla on Jun 24, 2019 14:11:41 GMT
I’m not missing any point I understand that. I’m just saying it’s a lottery because of the four goalies mentioned above, all with similar stats there is only one we would say is a championship goalie and that’s because we’ve seen him do it. If all we had to go on was prior stats then they’re all much on a par. How can somebody say “I think we’ve got a gem” when Carr’s stats are no better than the other three ? They’re are purely guessing. Yes, ‘I think we’ve got a gem’. The key words here are “I think” ie it is my opinion. I base this on the fact that his save percentage stats are incredibly consistent and his play-off stats (apart from his season in Zagreb) are also very good, 93.5% this season just gone for example, which suggests he plays well under pressure. Now I could be completely wrong, thems the breaks with opinions. They are the breaks with opinions yes Jono. And he is consistent,but his average is around .905 which is not good enough,he needs to be in the .920 bracket,because I don’t think you’re winning a league championship with a goalie at .905 unless you’ve got a very very good team in front of him. You look at Beskorowany,Bowns,Moose and Kowalski for instance,now I haven’t checked but I bet they were all up in the very high .910 or even .920 bracket I’m not arguing against Carr,time will tell,but I just find it odd that people can guess we’ve got a gem but others can’t give their opinion and guess we’ve got average.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 15:44:25 GMT
Owen got 91.2% last year and in the high 80s his last 2 years in the echl. Hes not good enough then? Based on your assumption you need to be posting 92%
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