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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 23:30:19 GMT
If we have the weaker Conference then how come the Erhardt teams are struggling against the Gardiner teams? If you can't win against supposedly weaker opposition then you don't have a right to complain. Besides was it not the big boys who wanted more games against each other, if we did win the league we'll have earned it, not because of the conference but because we were the better team after 52 games. I can't believe that someone can still ask this question. It's blatantly obvious that Braehead have an easier schedule. Look at the league table, jeez.
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Mozzy
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Post by Mozzy on Jan 20, 2016 1:18:23 GMT
If we have the weaker Conference then how come the Erhardt teams are struggling against the Gardiner teams? If you can't win against supposedly weaker opposition then you don't have a right to complain. Besides was it not the big boys who wanted more games against each other, if we did win the league we'll have earned it, not because of the conference but because we were the better team after 52 games. If you seriously believe what you have written then you are totally deluded. As pointed out by a post just after yours, look at the league table, just where do the Gardiner conference teams sit? It's not that difficult to see how much easier your schedule is it.... Finnerty should have been sacked for not winning it last year, just how much of an helping hand do you actually want?? Seriously cannot believe how totally blinkered some Clan fans are. Once you've competed in our conference and won it then you can come and say "we were the better team over 52 games".
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Post by jaygeebee on Jan 20, 2016 1:46:06 GMT
I agree Clan are in the weaker Conference. I think it's nonsense anyone saying otherwise. However, when they were set up the Clan fans never wanted to be in it, we wanted to be playing the top teams more often. If we win the league then it won't mean any less to us than it would to a Panthers fan if they win despite what fans of other teams may think. The downside however small you may think it is, is that by playing in a weaker Conference we then have to raise our game when we play the Erhardt, which could cause problems as it appeared to last year., when we dominated our conf. but came up short against Erhardt. We appear to be better prepared this year (e.g. 6 pts from 8 v Cardiff) with a stronger team, although I also believe our budget is probably the 5th biggest. Like most I have no proof of this, & the differences may not be significant, but I think some posters underestimate the gulf in the cost of Brits that Braehead have compared to most if not all the Erhardt teams.
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Doom
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Post by Doom on Jan 20, 2016 7:18:26 GMT
If we have the weaker Conference then how come the Erhardt teams are struggling against the Gardiner teams? If you can't win against supposedly weaker opposition then you don't have a right to complain. Besides was it not the big boys who wanted more games against each other, if we did win the league we'll have earned it, not because of the conference but because we were the better team after 52 games. Erhardt teams aren't struggling against Gardiner teams. There's obviously something wrong with the Elite League website tables, because the number of games don't quite tally, but by my reckoning, points gained to date: Erhardt teams 105 pts from 72 games against Gardiner = 1.49 pts/game Gardiner teams 61 pts from 71 games = 0.86pts/game That's a huge difference. Regards Doom
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Mozzy
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Post by Mozzy on Jan 20, 2016 9:04:51 GMT
I agree Clan are in the weaker Conference. I think it's nonsense anyone saying otherwise. However, when they were set up the Clan fans never wanted to be in it, we wanted to be playing the top teams more often. If we win the league then it won't mean any less to us than it would to a Panthers fan if they win despite what fans of other teams may think. The downside however small you may think it is, is that by playing in a weaker Conference we then have to raise our game when we play the Erhardt, which could cause problems as it appeared to last year., when we dominated our conf. but came up short against Erhardt. We appear to be better prepared this year (e.g. 6 pts from 8 v Cardiff) with a stronger team, although I also believe our budget is probably the 5th biggest. Like most I have no proof of this, & the differences may not be significant, but I think some posters underestimate the gulf in the cost of Brits that Braehead have compared to most if not all the Erhardt teams. It's irrelevent whether you wanted to be in it or not. The facts are, you are in it, you have easily the biggest budget in there and a much easier ride than the Erhardt teams. I've no doubt you will enjoy winning the league and you should but it will always be tainted by the fact the conference is easier. You could say very much like the Steelers 4 trophies in 2000 for busting wage caps and the Panthers "pretend" grand slam for not winning the conference.
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Post by MODSTUFF on Jan 20, 2016 9:15:33 GMT
Even with the most concrete of evidence, Clan fans just won't admit it's easier for them. I really can't understand it. Discoray has vanished after being asked to back up his 'facts' with evidence.
I enjoy reading Doom's posts so much. Always backs up his posts with factual evidence and stats.
Doom, do you have any evidence or stats that could explain Clan fans delusion? It baffles me.
Simmsey himself says that the conference system favours the clan. I appreciate he can sometimes spout a lot of tripe, but when talking rosters and signings he always tells it exactly how it is.
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Post by wannabe2 on Jan 20, 2016 9:42:30 GMT
If the two conferences stays, and I don't agree with that, then swop Manchester with Belfast. ??
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Shorty
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Post by Shorty on Jan 20, 2016 10:00:52 GMT
Is this the last season scheduled for the two conferences?
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 20, 2016 10:21:55 GMT
Is this the last season scheduled for the two conferences? If Sheffield was to lose the league title by a point or two yes. Smith runs the league and he wants his team to win as much as any fan out there so you can bet your bottom dollar that would only happen the once. Personally I think that the Devils are the strongest team by a mile this year and if they get beaten by a point then the system might run for another year yet.
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jan 20, 2016 10:34:26 GMT
This has turned into exactly the same thread we had last year. I've no doubt you will enjoy winning the league and you should but it will always be tainted by the fact the conference is easier. It won't be tainted in any way. They will have won the league in the system provided. They haven't forced the system on the other 9 clubs. It's not comparable at all to bending/breaking the rules in order to clean up. Even with the most concrete of evidence, Clan fans just won't admit it's easier for them. I really can't understand it. Why is it so important to you that they admit it? Why do they need to apologize for playing in the system given to them? If the two conferences stays, and I don't agree with that, then swop Manchester with Belfast. ?? I would doubt Belfast would want that, I remember last year when this was discussed their fans didn't really want to miss out on the "big" games, I should think the business bods in charge wouldn't want to either.
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Post by MODSTUFF on Jan 20, 2016 11:09:41 GMT
It's not important to me that they admit it. But I don't understand why they can't. I understand that it's the system they've been provided. But the system does make it easier for them. That just can't be debated.
That's why it won't be the same achievment as if Devils, Panthers, Steelers, Blaze or Giants won it. As it stands, it is not a level playing field. You don't have to trawl very much to find league officials openly admitting this themselves.
Nobody will be able to argue they didn't win it fairly under the rules and regs provided. The problem is with the rules. Not Clan's fault, but it is their major advantage. I will always argue that they won it under an unfair system. If Steelers were switched with Clan beofre the season started there would be a much greater response than there is right now.
As soon as it's switched back to a level league the better. That's the only fair way to gauge the best team across a full season. If Clan win this year, can anybody really say they were proven to be (beyond any doubt) the best team? I don't think they can.
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Mozzy
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Post by Mozzy on Jan 20, 2016 11:41:21 GMT
It's not important to me that they admit it. But I don't understand why they can't. I understand that it's the system they've been provided. But the system does make it easier for them. That just can't be debated. That's why it won't be the same achievment as if Devils, Panthers, Steelers, Blaze or Giants won it. As it stands, it is not a level playing field. You don't have to trawl very much to find league officials openly admitting this themselves. Nobody will be able to argue they didn't win it fairly under the rules and regs provided. The problem is with the rules. Not Clan's fault, but it is their major advantage. I will always argue that they won it under an unfair system. If Steelers were switched with Clan beofre the season started there would be a much greater response than there is right now. As soon as it's switched back to a level league the better. That's the only fair way to gauge the best team across a full season. If Clan win this year, can anybody really say they were proven to be (beyond any doubt) the best team? I don't think they can. No they can't and there is the biggest problem.
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Mozzy
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Post by Mozzy on Jan 20, 2016 11:43:49 GMT
This has turned into exactly the same thread we had last year. I've no doubt you will enjoy winning the league and you should but it will always be tainted by the fact the conference is easier. It won't be tainted in any way. They will have won the league in the system provided. They haven't forced the system on the other 9 clubs. It's not comparable at all to bending/breaking the rules in order to clean up. Even with the most concrete of evidence, Clan fans just won't admit it's easier for them. I really can't understand it. Why is it so important to you that they admit it? Why do they need to apologize for playing in the system given to them? If the two conferences stays, and I don't agree with that, then swop Manchester with Belfast. ?? I would doubt Belfast would want that, I remember last year when this was discussed their fans didn't really want to miss out on the "big" games, I should think the business bods in charge wouldn't want to either. You are correct with the bending the rules stuff, bad example really. Just one point on Belfast switching with Manchester. Todd Kelman intimated this might happen. I think from a Sheffield perspective, Manchester would eventually be a bigger draw than Belfast.
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jan 20, 2016 12:07:44 GMT
I think from a Sheffield perspective, Manchester would eventually be a bigger draw than Belfast. How long is eventually? I can't imagine the Storm becoming a team like the Giants anytime soon, given the building they're in etc, and there'll be no change on that front. Certainly if I've got to see one of them 4 times, and one of them twice, I'll keep it the way it is. I'd go back to a straight league personally, but would Panthers/Steelers want to give up 25% of our current pay days?
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Post by endisforever91 on Jan 20, 2016 12:09:24 GMT
Bit of a frustrating thread this which has prompted me to cease lurking...
Yes, the Gardiner conference is not as strong. All the teams agreed to the conference structure. Braehead can only play the fixtures allocated to them. Baiting the Clan fans over it is a bit pointless. If you win the league under the rules set out, you're a worthy winner.
As for the Storm/Steelers rivalry being a bigger draw than Steelers/Belfast, having endured 400 Steelers fan chanting "Yorkshire" after New Year's Day overtime, I think it probably already is...
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Post by MODSTUFF on Jan 20, 2016 12:48:44 GMT
If you win the league under the rules set out, you're a worthy winner. Disagree completely. If Devils finish 1 point behind Clan it will be a travesty for Devils fans. Using that as an example.... Take the game that devils lost against us at home. Swith that fixture to a home game against Edingburgh/Fife/Dundee/Manchester and Devils are probably league champs. That's just using 1 game as an example. Clan have had that advantage many times over. If Clan win, they won't be worthy winners. They will be legitimate league champions under current rules. But not worthy.
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Post by endisforever91 on Jan 20, 2016 13:04:00 GMT
The Devils agreed to those rules, as did all the teams in the league.
Personally I'd scrap the conference system and play each side 6 times - and in any case, any advantage my team (Storm) gain from the weaker conference is lost by the geography (the short trips for the Scottish teams make for a huge advantage).
We've actually got more change from Belfast and Sheffield than from Braehead and Dundee.
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Post by Bagheera on Jan 20, 2016 14:28:33 GMT
Said it the laast time it was discussed. Trying to tick all boxes for fans and clubs. Keep conference system. Swap Belfast & Manchester. In an ideal world probably Cardiff & Dundee too. This gives a far greater balance but kind of defeats the point of conference system for those teams. Stick with the 1 change for now. Keep cross conference games at 2 home 2 away. Change own conference to 3 home 3 away. Reducing the advantage gained from multiple games extra against "weaker opposition". Make all CC games stand alone. Based on this season that means same games at home Vs Cardiff & Manchester(obv this will go up with confrence swap with Belfast) for Panthers. Only losing 1 home game each from Coventry & Sheffield(I know the club won't like it but im sure they find a way to get some sort of extra fixture in). Then implement Todd Kelmans CC weekend, Play off series plan(I said it before him actually. Im fed up now and want the credit for it ............ As I have no influence in the league i'll let him have it I supose).
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Jan 20, 2016 14:51:57 GMT
Good stats there Doom.
A difference of 0.63 points per game. So if we multiplied that difference by Clans extra 12 games against Gardiner teams they would have to win the league by at least 8 points for it to be a level field.
And Dooms figure will be out by virtue of Erhardt teams playing against the Clan. If you took the points average solely on Erhardt teams playing just the four smaller Gardiner teams, i would wager the points difference would be even bigger,so In reality the Clan would need to win it by an even greater margin to be called worthy champions !
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Doom
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Post by Doom on Jan 20, 2016 15:10:30 GMT
If you win the league under the rules set out, you're a worthy winner.
I guess it depends on your definition of worthy.
If worthy = best team, then they're probably not worthy winners.
If worthy = winning it within the rules set, then they would be worthy.
Let's just assume the idea of the conference system is an attempt to level the playing field. If next season the league came up with a points handicap, whereby the team who won the league started with 0 points and every other team started the season with the amount of points they finished behind the title winners. So for example, if Manchester finish 20 points behind Braehead at the end of this season, they start next season on 20 points. If Manchester then went on to win the league by 1 point from Braehead, would they be considered worthy winners, because they won it within the rules?
I personally would have an issue with this, because it doesn't determine 'the best' team after 52 games and that's what the league title is all about as far as I'm concerned....determining the best.
Regards
Doom
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Post by tootootrain on Jan 20, 2016 17:11:55 GMT
The Devils agreed to those rules... Did they? Did they? I don't believe it would have been a unanimous decision (despite whatever is/was stated by the EIHL). Given that when the conferences were set up the Scottish teams were far weaker, I can imagine some now Erdhardt Conference teams were not keen on losing 'easier' points. I don't even believe the oft said comments about the conference system being favoured by Nottingham and Sheffield, due to increased "biggest rivals in Europe" match ups either. Hockey is a results based business, so why would teams like Sheffield (who, history has shown, have an incredibly fickle fan base) freely choose to make getting results more difficult? The only teams who I can imagine jumped at the chance of the conference system were those who'd benefit most, the Scottish teams.
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jan 20, 2016 17:25:05 GMT
The only teams who I can imagine jumped at the chance of the conference system were those who'd benefit most, the Scottish teams. But there are only 4 of them, so they'd have just been out voted by now? I think this is the 4th year of the conferences, haven't seen too much desire to change them? So there's definitely some in our conference who like it.
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Post by tootootrain on Jan 20, 2016 17:33:35 GMT
But there are only 4 of them, so they'd have just been out voted by now? I think this is the 4th year of the conferences, haven't seen too much desire to change them? So there's definitely some in our conference who like it. There is a difference between "jumped at the chance" and "went along with in fear of losing teams". Despite the belief that the 'Arena Teams' hold all the cards in reality the rink teams, as a group, have the likes of Nottingham over a barrel. Why else would NB have thrown around so much money assisting various sick note teams over the years?
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Yotes
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Post by Yotes on Jan 20, 2016 17:57:00 GMT
I don't buy it. We'd really be talking Dundee, Fife and Edinburgh making the rest of the league dance to their tune. Clan would do what Blacky says they're going to do. Hull, and now Manchester, don't benefit from it at all.
Of course you have to try and take everyone with you in a league as flimsy as ours is often proved to be, but I'd think if it was so odious to them they'd find another way to offer a salve to the Scottish rink teams.
4x4 versus the "bigger" sides, add in a couple against Clan for 18 very sellable games out of 26. Only have to sell 8 other Gardiner match ups, opposed to 12 in the old 3x3 system. I think our lot like the system a fair bit.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Jan 20, 2016 18:12:49 GMT
I don't buy it. We'd really be talking Dundee, Fife and Edinburgh making the rest of the league dance to their tune. Clan would do what Blacky says they're going to do. Hull, and now Manchester, don't benefit from it at all. Of course you have to try and take everyone with you in a league as flimsy as ours is often proved to be, but I'd think if it was so odious to them they'd find another way to offer a salve to the Scottish rink teams. 4x4 versus the "bigger" sides, add in a couple against Clan for 18 very sellable games out of 26. Only have to sell 8 other Gardiner match ups, opposed to 12 in the old 3x3 system. I think our lot like the system a fair bit. I agree. Despite various BS comments made by certain individuals if the panthers could find a way to add two more Steelers games to the season they would do that too.
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