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Post by fishman on Sept 12, 2014 10:05:51 GMT
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Post by tootootrain on Sept 12, 2014 10:22:11 GMT
Millions of people commute into and across London by using the underground everyday! You can get to Wembley on the Bakerloo, Jubliee and Metropolitan line. As someone who has gone to Wembley numerous times, it couldn't be a more accessible area. In terms of the naming of the team, well nothing has been confirmed but seeing as Neil Black lives in London, you would think he has a good idea of what will work I'm sorry but you're just compounding your ignorance of transport in London now. Yes, many places in London have good transport links (though those tube lines you mention don't exactly serve much south of the river, the Metropolitan serving nothing south of the river at all) but Greater London is still huge. My parents live south of river, not at the end of a branch line but smack bang between three train stations that all have trains to Victoria or London Bridge/Charing Cross every 15 minutes, but a journey to Wembley will still take 1hr45min each way. For a comparison, a journey to the Sheffield Steelers from Nottingham by train/tram is about 1hr20min. Aside from transport ignorance there is the issue many 'provincial' people have thinking Londoners will support a London-branded team, as ipiggott touched upon in his earlier comments. Every previous 'London-branded' team has been a dismal failure for a number of reasons but, having spoken to hockey fans who didn't go to watch the Knights/Racers, one of the reasons is a lack of local identity. My dad is from Streatham, played for Streatham and watches Streatham, a London team, at whatever level has no appeal, especially one that takes the best part of 2 hours each way to get to.
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NP
Lorne Smith
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Post by NP on Sept 12, 2014 10:41:07 GMT
Erm not quite sure where you are getting your info from but Wembley is one of the easiest places to get to by public transport. There are 3 train stations in wembley and they are on numerous lines. Its actually a massive advantage of playing in wembley, incomparable to the Docklands Many thanks for asking - from 25 years of living, working, commuting and generally trying to travel in and around London on a daily basis!! Nothing like experience over looking on the internet!! (see two can play at the sarcastic comments game &/or make sweeping assumptions without knowing sufficient background about the poster!!) Whilst there are several tube and rail stations do not confuse ease with being well served!! You are not going to get significant numbers of people traveling cross London regularly (be it by public transport or by car, it just takes too long!!! Every home game will be like an away game) to allow a franchise to flourish without significant long term subsidy be that from NB's pocket directly or from a levy across the league. You also need to remember that London doesn't identify with teams that are called London - it is very parochial place comprised of many different districts and areas that each have their own pull and attraction, like Nottingham, Derby and Leicester all being pulled together - tell me honestly whether you would expect huge support for East Midland Panthers playing out of an arena in Loughborough? For that is essentially what a London team playing in Wembley would be like. I reassert that whilst a London team may be good for media profile, it is not going to be overly helpful to the stability of the league unless we completely change and become a southern centric league and dump the Scots Having lived in North London (Enfield area) for four years, can definetly agree with you regards the travel around London. I don't drive, and so use public transport regularly. Have worked both at Wembley stadium and in the docklands area. Wembley is only around 10 minutes quicker for me to reach at around 1 hour 10 mins on a good day, though can add on another 20 - 40 + mins on days when there are tube delays. Then for travel say to Streatham ice rink in South London that have been to a couple of times, it's around the 1 hour 40 mins mark which is slower than going from London to Nottingham on the train. Yes it would mainly be that Geographic area, but think it could be feasible and shouldn't be dismissed. Team would need to be based in the Wembley arena, which is further north than Cardiff and be quicker / easier to get to for a lot of away teams / fans. Would require a lot of marketing, and deals done mind you, or the arena would look pretty empty and needs to become viable financially. Intrestingly Harringey Racers, actually rebranded themselves as London Harringey Racers last season. They play at Alexandra Palace, and sometimes fill out the rink (about 1.000 capacity I think) due to having a lot of half price adult tickets, and upto two children going free with each paying adult. Think it would actually be better mind you adding another northern team - be good to get a Newcastle / Whitley team back, and so then keeping the conference system.
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Post by Rob Scott on Sept 12, 2014 10:42:14 GMT
The population within 4.5 miles of Wembley is almost 1 million people.
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Post by bill238 on Sept 12, 2014 10:56:00 GMT
Millions of people commute into and across London by using the underground everyday! You can get to Wembley on the Bakerloo, Jubliee and Metropolitan line. As someone who has gone to Wembley numerous times, it couldn't be a more accessible area. In terms of the naming of the team, well nothing has been confirmed but seeing as Neil Black lives in London, you would think he has a good idea of what will work I'm sorry but you're just compounding your ignorance of transport in London now. Yes, many places in London have good transport links (though those tube lines you mention don't exactly serve much south of the river, the Metropolitan serving nothing south of the river at all) but Greater London is still huge. My parents live south of river, not at the end of a branch line but smack bang between three train stations that all have trains to Victoria or London Bridge/Charing Cross every 15 minutes, but a journey to Wembley will still take 1hr45min each way. For a comparison, a journey to the Sheffield Steelers from Nottingham by train/tram is about 1hr20min. No I am really not. Why would the team need to target people south of the river? London as we all know is a very densely populated area. Within a 10 mile range of Wembley there will be millions of people who can get to Wembley in reasonable time
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Sept 12, 2014 11:05:20 GMT
Many thanks for asking - from 25 years of living, working, commuting and generally trying to travel in and around London on a daily basis!! Nothing like experience over looking on the internet!! (see two can play at the sarcastic comments game &/or make sweeping assumptions without knowing sufficient background about the poster!!) Whilst there are several tube and rail stations do not confuse ease with being well served!! You are not going to get significant numbers of people traveling cross London regularly (be it by public transport or by car, it just takes too long!!! Every home game will be like an away game) to allow a franchise to flourish without significant long term subsidy be that from NB's pocket directly or from a levy across the league. You also need to remember that London doesn't identify with teams that are called London - it is very parochial place comprised of many different districts and areas that each have their own pull and attraction, like Nottingham, Derby and Leicester all being pulled together - tell me honestly whether you would expect huge support for East Midland Panthers playing out of an arena in Loughborough? For that is essentially what a London team playing in Wembley would be like. I reassert that whilst a London team may be good for media profile, it is not going to be overly helpful to the stability of the league unless we completely change and become a southern centric league and dump the Scots Having lived in North London (Enfield area) for four years, can definetly agree with you regards the travel around London. I don't drive, and so use public transport regularly. Have worked both at Wembley stadium and in the docklands area. Wembley is only around 10 minutes quicker for me to reach at around 1 hour 10 mins on a good day, though can add on another 20 - 40 + mins on days when there are tube delays. Then for travel say to Streatham ice rink in South London that have been to a couple of times, it's around the 1 hour 40 mins mark which is slower than going from London to Nottingham on the train. Yes it would mainly be that Geographic area, but think it could be feasible and shouldn't be dismissed. Team would need to be based in the Wembley arena, which is further north than Cardiff and be quicker / easier to get to for a lot of away teams / fans. Would require a lot of marketing, and deals done mind you, or the arena would look pretty empty and needs to become viable financially. Intrestingly Harringey Racers, actually rebranded themselves as London Harringey Racers last season. They play at Alexandra Palace, and sometimes fill out the rink (about 1.000 capacity I think) due to having a lot of half price adult tickets, and upto two children going free with each paying adult. Think it would actually be better mind you adding another northern team - be good to get a Newcastle / Whitley team back, and so then keeping the conference system. Whitley Bay would be a HUGE step backwards.
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goon37
Jade Galbraith
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Post by goon37 on Sept 12, 2014 12:58:57 GMT
Having lived in North London (Enfield area) for four years, can definetly agree with you regards the travel around London. I don't drive, and so use public transport regularly. Have worked both at Wembley stadium and in the docklands area. Wembley is only around 10 minutes quicker for me to reach at around 1 hour 10 mins on a good day, though can add on another 20 - 40 + mins on days when there are tube delays. Then for travel say to Streatham ice rink in South London that have been to a couple of times, it's around the 1 hour 40 mins mark which is slower than going from London to Nottingham on the train. Yes it would mainly be that Geographic area, but think it could be feasible and shouldn't be dismissed. Team would need to be based in the Wembley arena, which is further north than Cardiff and be quicker / easier to get to for a lot of away teams / fans. Would require a lot of marketing, and deals done mind you, or the arena would look pretty empty and needs to become viable financially. Intrestingly Harringey Racers, actually rebranded themselves as London Harringey Racers last season. They play at Alexandra Palace, and sometimes fill out the rink (about 1.000 capacity I think) due to having a lot of half price adult tickets, and upto two children going free with each paying adult. Think it would actually be better mind you adding another northern team - be good to get a Newcastle / Whitley team back, and so then keeping the conference system. Whitley Bay would be a HUGE step backwards. A much as Whitley Bay is a great place to watch hockey (it really is!), it really is not suitable for EIHL standard. For many, many reasons.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Sept 12, 2014 13:07:14 GMT
Whitley Bay would be a HUGE step backwards. A much as Whitley Bay is a great place to watch hockey (it really is!), it really is not suitable for EIHL standard. For many, many reasons. It's clear that NB and the arena teams have much bigger ambitions in their plans.
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Post by pingchowchi on Sept 12, 2014 13:15:55 GMT
Just as the Panthers do not target people from Sheffield, I doubt that a team in Wembley would target people living south of the Thames. Surely there are more people living within a hours commute of Wembley than there people living in a simalar commute to the NIC?
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Post by bill238 on Sept 12, 2014 14:20:56 GMT
Just as the Panthers do not target people from Sheffield, I doubt that a team in Wembley would target people living south of the Thames. Surely there are more people living within a hours commute of Wembley than there people living in a simalar commute to the NIC? Doing a bit of research Wembley is situated in the London Borough of Brent (population - 280,000). The neighbouring boroughs & their populations are Harrow (221,000), Barnet (331,000), Camden (211,000), Westminster (217,000), Kensington & Chelsea (170,000), Hammersmith & Fulham (181,000) and Ealing (320,000). That gives a total population of 1,931,000 million all roughly within a 10 mile radius. That figure is now probably over 2 million as figures are from 2011 (source - data.london.gov.uk/documents/FocusOnLondon-PopulationAndMigration.pdf )
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2014 15:11:55 GMT
Just as the Panthers do not target people from Sheffield, I doubt that a team in Wembley would target people living south of the Thames. Surely there are more people living within a hours commute of Wembley than there people living in a simalar commute to the NIC? Doing a bit of research Wembley is situated in the London Borough of Brent (population - 280,000). The neighbouring boroughs & their populations are Harrow (221,000), Barnet (331,000), Camden (211,000), Westminster (217,000), Kensington & Chelsea (170,000), Hammersmith & Fulham (181,000) and Ealing (320,000). That gives a total population of 1,931,000 million all roughly within a 10 mile radius. That figure is now probably over 2 million as figures are from 2011 (source - data.london.gov.uk/documents/FocusOnLondon-PopulationAndMigration.pdf ) Just a quick question - have you also looked at the demographics for those areas? I would suggest that your potential demographic would be a good degree smaller
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Sept 12, 2014 16:26:17 GMT
If you can put together a steadily growing team in Breahead you could put one together on the moon. Pretty sure they know what they are doing no matter where it is.
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Post by tootootrain on Sept 12, 2014 17:11:09 GMT
Yes, you really are. You said; "Millions of people commute into and across London by using the underground everyday!" I (and others) have clearly shown that commuting across London isn't as simple a thing as you seem to think. Indeed its arguable that you acknowledge this yourself in your last post towards me by changing the goal posts of a potential target area from 'across London' to Brent and its surrounds. I don't believe a team should target London,for reasons relating to locality loyality as touched upon by others, it was you that mentioned people travelling 'across London', and by extension it is not unreasonable for me and others go assume you, initially at least, believed in a single London-branded team drawing from Greater London. I acknowledge you may now have changed your position though in response to comment though.
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Post by bill238 on Sept 12, 2014 17:23:13 GMT
Yes, you really are. You said; "Millions of people commute into and across London by using the underground everyday!" I (and others) have clearly shown that commuting across London isn't as simple a thing as you seem to think. Indeed its arguable that you acknowledge this yourself in your last post towards me by changing the goal posts of a potential target area from 'across London' to Brent and its surrounds. I don't believe a team should target London,for reasons relating to locality loyality as touched upon by others, it was you that mentioned people travelling 'across London', and by extension it is not unreasonable for me and others go assume you, initially at least, believed in a single London-branded team drawing from Greater London. I acknowledge you may now have changed your position though in response to comment though. Hold on, nowhere did I say Commuting across London is a simple thing. I know its not but the fact is millions of people do it everyday by using the underground. That is not ignorance, its a fact (think the figure is on average 2-3 million a day). I mentioned travelling 'across London' in response to the previous poster who had brought it up, not me. I even said in the same post 'In terms of the naming of the team, well nothing has been confirmed but seeing as Neil Black lives in London, you would think he has a good idea of what will work'. I never changed my position on anything, I never even talked about a single London-branded team.
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Post by bruinspanthers on Sept 12, 2014 18:21:49 GMT
Two London teams then to keep the conference system and create rivalry!
Obviously realise this isn't going to happen for next season, would be great though
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Post by pantherdman on Sept 12, 2014 22:04:42 GMT
The only viable reason to set up a new team would be if a new venue was to be built like breaheads.
Adding a new team with out a state of the art venue and no existing fan base would be a waste of time and would add nothing to the league IMO
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2014 23:44:10 GMT
I feel that the best illustration of what problems a "London" based team would face is the problems of the London Broncos Rugby League side. Now RL is hardly a minority sport especially in similar areas to that which ice hockey also can "home" however, down in London it has never really caught on to the extent that they have moved around London, firstly playing in Fulham, then Twickenham and now they now play in Harrow which is just up the road from Wembley. This season they have have averaged less than 1500 a game with all games bar one being at a weekend.
RL is searching for a similar sort of fan to that which ice hockey would be searching and plainly isn't getting it - why? Can't be lack of media coverage!! So must be things like a lack of an existing fan base and by this i mean ice hockey in general. And this then goes to the points made by others to establish the team you are going to have to draw on "london's" ice hockey fans - no not specifically target people in Bromley, Bexley and Croydon but you are going to need the likes of the fans who watched Romford, Richmond and Streatham and they are going to be deterred by placing a team in an arena that is frankly difficult to get to within a reasonable time frame.Whilst previous posters have quite correctly observed that within a 10 mile radius there are nearly 2 million people. However, i would suggest that you look at the demographics of the immediate boroughs - to put it bluntly there is a predominance of people who culturally are just not going to be interested in ice hockey! In addition they are also some of the poorer boroughs in London and so attracting "local" fans will at best extremely challenging so again this would mean that there was a need to attract (not target!!) fans from outside these immediate boroughs.
Furthermore the majority of fans are not going to travel by public transport but will drive. But parking is very limited and that there is expensive (this is incidentally where Braehead scores - they had a base of existing fans in the area - admittedly pretty limited) and an arena that is pretty easy to get to with free parking. These are all things that a "London" based team isn't likely to have).
I agree that NB isn't stupid but i agree with others that for this to succeed is going to need a large amount of subsidy for a number of years which i honestly believe will be to the detriment of the league not it's enhancement.
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Post by PantherG on Sept 12, 2014 23:46:12 GMT
Yes, you really are. You said; "Millions of people commute into and across London by using the underground everyday!" I (and others) have clearly shown that commuting across London isn't as simple a thing as you seem to think. Indeed its arguable that you acknowledge this yourself in your last post towards me by changing the goal posts of a potential target area from 'across London' to Brent and its surrounds. I don't believe a team should target London,for reasons relating to locality loyality as touched upon by others, it was you that mentioned people travelling 'across London', and by extension it is not unreasonable for me and others go assume you, initially at least, believed in a single London-branded team drawing from Greater London. I acknowledge you may now have changed your position though in response to comment though. I live in London and yes, travelling from Streatham to Wembley would be a pain in the ass, but let me tell you the volume of people who live within a reasonable travelling time to Wembley is far far better than any of the other teams in the UK have access to. As others have pointed out, if a team can be created and made a success in Glasgow then that gives me confidence it can be replicated elsewhere. I see no reason why a team cannot be set up in London, there are a huge amount of exp pats from both North America and Eastern Europe who may enjoy going to watch some hockey each week. There are huge corporations in London so with the correct marketing etc interest can be garnered. That said I don't expect 10,000 people a week going to a match from day one, but with the right business plan, over a few years, there is no reason why it can't be a success. As a resident of London I can also state that the Docklands venture failed because that really was out of the way and transport links were poor, it took me forever to get to matches there but Wembley is far more accessible to a much wider group of people. You also have the borough of Hillingdon, a trip from Ruislip to Wembley is only a few stops and there are another 275,000 potential fans there to seek out. I get the fact that many fans are worried that Neil Black could potentially fund another team and that might impact on Nottingham, or of course that some of the better players might be tempted down South to live in London for a year or two, but any league expansion can only be good for the sport and another arena team will only strengthen the league, making it more competitive, so let's see how this plays out. My money is on a team playing out of Wembley next season or maybe the Copper Box, I'm hearing that the London team is on the cards, from really reliable sources, so instead of shouting people down for suggesting ways it can be a success, let's be positive and think how good it will be to expand the league a little more.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2014 0:38:30 GMT
PantherG,
Couple of points, Whilst i agree Docklands at the time as a pig to get to it was based in Docklands which was and still is home to large corporations. A significant amount of time and effort was made to target those very people at the time with what was frankly a far better product than we have now. As you will know there was very limited impact. There were large amounts of ex pats from North America then too (although admittedly not East European) but they didn't go either!!
Secondly sustainable expansion is good but not expansion for expansions sake - look at the NHL, the only truly successful franchises have been in areas with a hockey fan base to tap - the likes of Columbus, Phoenix,Florida have not! My concern is not that we lose a few players, it is that expansion for the sake of it (and potentially i see the drive to have to have a franchise in London as being for the sake of it) will be harmful for the league. For it to be good it needs to benefit all teams in the league - not just a few. Over the last couple of years we have seen a significant improvement in overall competitiveness, what we don't need is to start another arms race. I don't agree that another arena team can only make it stronger - whats the point of adding a london area team if we end up losing 2 or 3 currently competitive teams due to increased costs. If you went to Docklands then you will obviously remember the year the Superleague collapsed!! Playing with only 5 teams in a league was frankly boring!!
I too live in London - all be it South and i would love to have a team closer to me that i could watch (although frankly as i still go to Nottingham home games perhaps i'm not the best person to hope to go to Wembley - can't see it being the Copper Box as presents similar issues that Docklands suffered from in that even after the Olympics it still hasn't got brilliant travel links) but from the experience of other smaller and minority sports (you can add Basketball in London to the RL example i gave above)clearly shows the high rate of failure for this type of activity in the London area even with the correct business plan - top line is vanity, bottomline is sanity!!
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Post by bill238 on Sept 13, 2014 1:20:06 GMT
I feel that the best illustration of what problems a "London" based team would face is the problems of the London Broncos Rugby League side. Now RL is hardly a minority sport especially in similar areas to that which ice hockey also can "home" however, down in London it has never really caught on to the extent that they have moved around London, firstly playing in Fulham, then Twickenham and now they now play in Harrow which is just up the road from Wembley. This season they have have averaged less than 1500 a game with all games bar one being at a weekend. RL is searching for a similar sort of fan to that which ice hockey would be searching and plainly isn't getting it - why? Can't be lack of media coverage!! So must be things like a lack of an existing fan base and by this i mean ice hockey in general. And this then goes to the points made by others to establish the team you are going to have to draw on "london's" ice hockey fans - no not specifically target people in Bromley, Bexley and Croydon but you are going to need the likes of the fans who watched Romford, Richmond and Streatham and they are going to be deterred by placing a team in an arena that is frankly difficult to get to within a reasonable time frame.Whilst previous posters have quite correctly observed that within a 10 mile radius there are nearly 2 million people. However, i would suggest that you look at the demographics of the immediate boroughs - to put it bluntly there is a predominance of people who culturally are just not going to be interested in ice hockey! In addition they are also some of the poorer boroughs in London and so attracting "local" fans will at best extremely challenging so again this would mean that there was a need to attract (not target!!) fans from outside these immediate boroughs. Furthermore the majority of fans are not going to travel by public transport but will drive. But parking is very limited and that there is expensive (this is incidentally where Braehead scores - they had a base of existing fans in the area - admittedly pretty limited) and an arena that is pretty easy to get to with free parking. These are all things that a "London" based team isn't likely to have). I agree that NB isn't stupid but i agree with others that for this to succeed is going to need a large amount of subsidy for a number of years which i honestly believe will be to the detriment of the league not it's enhancement. The neighbouring boroughs of Wembley include some of the most affluent areas not only in London but in the world with places such as Belgravia, Kensington, St.John's wood, Chelsea, Totteridge, Hampstead & Mayfair etc. Of course there are areas near Wembley which are poor such as the borough of Brent itself but there are more than enough potential "local" fans within these immediate boroughs. If there was a team in Wembley I am sure though that there would be small pockets of fans from all sorts of boroughs over London but I would think the majority would come from within those immediate boroughs
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Post by PantherG on Sept 14, 2014 10:44:47 GMT
PantherG, Couple of points, Whilst i agree Docklands at the time as a pig to get to it was based in Docklands which was and still is home to large corporations. A significant amount of time and effort was made to target those very people at the time with what was frankly a far better product than we have now. As you will know there was very limited impact. There were large amounts of ex pats from North America then too (although admittedly not East European) but they didn't go either!! Secondly sustainable expansion is good but not expansion for expansions sake - look at the NHL, the only truly successful franchises have been in areas with a hockey fan base to tap - the likes of Columbus, Phoenix,Florida have not! My concern is not that we lose a few players, it is that expansion for the sake of it (and potentially i see the drive to have to have a franchise in London as being for the sake of it) will be harmful for the league. For it to be good it needs to benefit all teams in the league - not just a few. Over the last couple of years we have seen a significant improvement in overall competitiveness, what we don't need is to start another arms race. I don't agree that another arena team can only make it stronger - whats the point of adding a london area team if we end up losing 2 or 3 currently competitive teams due to increased costs. If you went to Docklands then you will obviously remember the year the Superleague collapsed!! Playing with only 5 teams in a league was frankly boring!! I too live in London - all be it South and i would love to have a team closer to me that i could watch (although frankly as i still go to Nottingham home games perhaps i'm not the best person to hope to go to Wembley - can't see it being the Copper Box as presents similar issues that Docklands suffered from in that even after the Olympics it still hasn't got brilliant travel links) but from the experience of other smaller and minority sports (you can add Basketball in London to the RL example i gave above)clearly shows the high rate of failure for this type of activity in the London area even with the correct business plan - top line is vanity, bottomline is sanity!! A couple more points from me, the London team failed purely due to the location of the arena, in fact the actual business of the London Arena failed because of the appalling location, so I'm not sure we can compare a team in Wembley with the team that played out of the Arena. I lived in London, but made the trip on a rare occasion because of that awful journey. Secondly, I'm guessing you're against expansion of the league full stop, that would be a logical conclusion as you appear to argue heavily for that in the post above. What I can't understand is why you would not want the league to increase in size to say 12-14 teams, any business that stands still is prone to failure and sensible growth seems the way forward, from what I understand the roadmap of the EIHL is to have teams playing out of Dublin and London. Anyway regardless of what you or I think a decision will be made and I'm pretty confident a London team will ice in the next two seasons.
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Phil Mitchell
Robert Lachowicz
winning is the only option
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Post by Phil Mitchell on Sept 14, 2014 15:58:56 GMT
A much as Whitley Bay is a great place to watch hockey (it really is!), it really is not suitable for EIHL standard. For many, many reasons. It's clear that NB and the arena teams have much bigger ambitions in their plans. What's so wrong with Whitley Bay? I believe the Ice Plant no longer exists as the Metro Arena We cannot have this elitist or snobbish attitude towards arenas however nice and new they may look If we need to get an increase in teams for the EIHL - then Whitley Bay may have to be considered London itself is a big logistical nightmare and trying to attract big crowds when you've got so many Premiership Football teams, Cricket (Middlesex/Lords), Rugby Union (Saracens - Venue The Stoop and Harlequins - Venue Twickenham), plus other minority sports such as basketball etc If there is to b a team in London then it has to be a long term financial project at the right venue
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Sept 14, 2014 16:53:35 GMT
It's clear that NB and the arena teams have much bigger ambitions in their plans. What's so wrong with Whitley Bay? It's been a few years since I have been there but apart from the dirty broken seats, mildew hanging from the ceiling, terrible lighting, green moss stained nets and filthy toilets not a lot really...
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Post by ted logan on Sept 14, 2014 17:04:31 GMT
What's so wrong with Whitley Bay? It's been a few years since I have been there but apart from the dirty broken seats, mildew hanging from the ceiling, terrible lighting, green moss stained nets and filthy toilets not a lot really... You were in the posh end
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Sept 14, 2014 17:06:53 GMT
It's been a few years since I have been there but apart from the dirty broken seats, mildew hanging from the ceiling, terrible lighting, green moss stained nets and filthy toilets not a lot really... You were in the posh end I left that bit out as I didn't want to sound biased
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