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Post by wgray on Aug 4, 2019 15:46:35 GMT
I think it’s unfair for loyal fans to be blamed for being the reason a club fails to achieve the ultimate goal though, how is that fair? Don't think anyone is blaming the fans per se, just when you've got a club where fans are relatively loyal regardless of success levels (or, where the club is ideally placed to just be a bit of weekend entertainment for some*) it means that it's easier for an owner to exploit this by not putting money back into the playing budget. I know the comparison has been made 1000s of times, but just compare with Shuff, where fans are generally unsettled unless there is success because they've won from their inception (due to some extent them being the only arena team back then). Unless they are seen to be doing everything to win these days, attendances drop. *Don't mean that negatively, just a reality of the Panthers catchment since the move to the NIC and is generally how I approach games these days. To me successful sports clubs aren’t run as businesses. That’s the problem we find ourselves with.
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Pies
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Post by Pies on Aug 4, 2019 15:47:34 GMT
Maybe we’ve gone “come here, we’ll give you a chance to put yourself in the shop window to earn better money in a better league next season if you can come here and light it up.” Why would this be a good thing for us? Let's say these young guys do just that, if there's no season 2, no building on the foundation, we've got nowhere. We'd basically be on a one-and-done setup, we'd have to win immediately which seems somewhat unlikely. There’s 2 potential answers to that question: Benefit one: the player in question is motivated to apply themselves, helping to win games in order to put themselves out there. Build agape of them scoring for fun and looking top dog. Benefit 2: the club is seen as a stepping stone to better things and following seasons can attract players who come in knowing that maybe the DEL didn’t call this season but I have a good season here, I can move on up there. Signing older players is as risky as the one and done system except their one and done is into retirement and the clubs seen as a one last paycheck where i coast rather than a stepping stone. I suppose the hope from the club is that they come here to show themselves off, win a title or a trophy and go “ I enjoyed this, let’s do it again” Itsnon GD to attract players seeing it as a stepping stone and developing a culture where players then want to stay. Easier said than done but not impossibe
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 15:47:41 GMT
That's the pitfalls of bringing players in who light it up straight away..better leagues will come calling
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 15:49:54 GMT
Don't think anyone is blaming the fans per se, just when you've got a club where fans are relatively loyal regardless of success levels (or, where the club is ideally placed to just be a bit of weekend entertainment for some*) it means that it's easier for an owner to exploit this by not putting money back into the playing budget. I know the comparison has been made 1000s of times, but just compare with Shuff, where fans are generally unsettled unless there is success because they've won from their inception (due to some extent them being the only arena team back then). Unless they are seen to be doing everything to win these days, attendances drop. *Don't mean that negatively, just a reality of the Panthers catchment since the move to the NIC and is generally how I approach games these days. To me successful sports clubs aren’t run as businesses. That’s the problem we find ourselves with. Correct and things wont change until a owner comes in who is more hockey minded and craves for on ice success
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 4, 2019 15:58:20 GMT
I would say last years squad was pretty expensive and we had a very experienced coach at the helm. Is it possible that Black is not splashing the cash until Doucet and Wallace prove themselves, and/if that happens then the budget will start to increase
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 16:01:02 GMT
I would say last years squad was pretty expensive and we had a very experienced coach at the helm. Is it possible that Black is not splashing the cash until Doucet and Wallace prove themselves, and/if that happens then the budget will start to increase That is quite plausible. I hope Wallace gets 3 years and be allowed to build something
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Post by pantherlee on Aug 4, 2019 16:06:02 GMT
I suppose from my point of view, it’s about now a budget is used. Are we trying to lure people in for bigger wages who may have took their first steps in Europe in German, Czech, Swedish or Slovakian leagues first (Herr, Carr, Malmqvist,Fick ) added proven European players (Matheson,Connelly, Jakobs, Loiseau) and then gambles on players who haven’t been tested too much (Deutsch and Golokovs) to build around a dynamic? If you look at the players on an individual basis: Loiseau: point a game ECHL player, 0.9 PPG player in 2 comparable European leagues Quist: 3rd top scorer in Danish league Fick: 0.5ish PPG player in the ECHL from defence last season Deutsch: 24 year old with KHL, SHL and EBEL league experience Herr: 3 straight season AHLer with no drop downs at 26 going into his prime Carr: 5 seasons over 90% save ratio goalie in the ECHL Matheson: career AHLer with SHL experience Golokovs: KHL experience at 24 0.8 PPG Elite league player Malmquist: 0.75 PPG NCAA player at 22 who was invited to the Wild camp Connelly: career AHLer, with SHL and EBEL experience When you start to line those up, there’s some big league experience (however small) that are comparable with some of the other teams Granted we don’t have that 500 game KHLer or the massive ex NHLer, but other than Ling, when has that worked for us? On paper, I 100% agree that it doesn’t look as strong. But build in that experience alongside players who will probably look to push themselves to bigger leagues, maybe we have decided to spend the money on players on an upward trend rather than those on the downward. Maybe we’ve gone “come here, we’ll give you a chance to put yourself in the shop window to earn better money in a better league next season if you can come here and light it up.” It’s a massive risk but we’ve gone the other way for so long, why not give this approach a go I really don’t know the finances but maybe GD and TW have invested in but I wanted to ply devils advocate here. Very easy for us to look at a CV and say “he’s expensive” I’m hoping this prompts some debate I alluded to this point on the Panthers roster thread that our squad this year is more difficult to read because of the different direction we have take but if you delve a little deeper and put some of these CV's into context i think there is more potential in this squad than immediately hits the eye. I'm actually more optimistic that this will be our best season for while and and improvement on the previous 2. The others might have some big pedigree signings from top leagues but the reason they are coming here is because they're ageing and no longer good enough for that level. These signings are as much a gamble as any other as their cv's command a big wage but you could still end up with someone who doesn't have the legs anymore or determination anymore or just after a hockey retirement home. The kind of players we have that have typically been called panthers type signings in the past
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 16:07:26 GMT
I suppose from my point of view, it’s about now a budget is used. Are we trying to lure people in for bigger wages who may have took their first steps in Europe in German, Czech, Swedish or Slovakian leagues first (Herr, Carr, Malmqvist,Fick ) added proven European players (Matheson,Connelly, Jakobs, Loiseau) and then gambles on players who haven’t been tested too much (Deutsch and Golokovs) to build around a dynamic? If you look at the players on an individual basis: Loiseau: point a game ECHL player, 0.9 PPG player in 2 comparable European leagues Quist: 3rd top scorer in Danish league Fick: 0.5ish PPG player in the ECHL from defence last season Deutsch: 24 year old with KHL, SHL and EBEL league experience Herr: 3 straight season AHLer with no drop downs at 26 going into his prime Carr: 5 seasons over 90% save ratio goalie in the ECHL Matheson: career AHLer with SHL experience Golokovs: KHL experience at 24 0.8 PPG Elite league player Malmquist: 0.75 PPG NCAA player at 22 who was invited to the Wild camp Connelly: career AHLer, with SHL and EBEL experience When you start to line those up, there’s some big league experience (however small) that are comparable with some of the other teams Granted we don’t have that 500 game KHLer or the massive ex NHLer, but other than Ling, when has that worked for us? On paper, I 100% agree that it doesn’t look as strong. But build in that experience alongside players who will probably look to push themselves to bigger leagues, maybe we have decided to spend the money on players on an upward trend rather than those on the downward. Maybe we’ve gone “come here, we’ll give you a chance to put yourself in the shop window to earn better money in a better league next season if you can come here and light it up.” It’s a massive risk but we’ve gone the other way for so long, why not give this approach a go I really don’t know the finances but maybe GD and TW have invested in but I wanted to ply devils advocate here. Very easy for us to look at a CV and say “he’s expensive” I’m hoping this prompts some debate I alluded to this point on the Panthers roster thread that our squad this year is more difficult to read because of the different direction we have take but if you delve a little deeper and put some of these CV's into context i think there is more potential in this squad than immediately hits the eye. I'm actually more optimistic that this will be our best season for while and and improvement on the previous 2. The others might have some big pedigree signings from top leagues but the reason they are coming here is because they're ageing and no longer good enough for that level. These signings are as much a gamble as any other as their cv's command a big wage but you could still end up with someone who doesn't have the legs anymore or determination anymore or just after a hockey retirement home. The kind of players we have that have typically been called panthers type signings in the past Well said
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Post by nightwish on Aug 4, 2019 16:14:50 GMT
I think the analogy to Newcastle is perfect - a loyal fan base that is taken for granted by the owners - Newcastle buy average players compared to teams with comparable fan bases and it’s all about profit.
Benitez got fed up, frankly I think Neilson was relieved to go - he seems to be enjoying the DEL more than the EIHL.
As long as profit takes priority to ambition then forget challenging for the big honour - ie the League. The play offs and CC are neither here or their - win a couple of games, get a couple of lucky bounces and the cup is yours.
Black and his cronies ambition is the CC and a half decent run in the Continental Cup.
As long the attendances hold up there will be no change in ambition. Kudos to Belfast and Cardiff - they have ambition. Sheffield make noises but Wilson is no different to Black - profit over ambition.
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Pies
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Post by Pies on Aug 4, 2019 16:17:41 GMT
I suppose from my point of view, it’s about now a budget is used. Are we trying to lure people in for bigger wages who may have took their first steps in Europe in German, Czech, Swedish or Slovakian leagues first (Herr, Carr, Malmqvist,Fick ) added proven European players (Matheson,Connelly, Jakobs, Loiseau) and then gambles on players who haven’t been tested too much (Deutsch and Golokovs) to build around a dynamic? If you look at the players on an individual basis: Loiseau: point a game ECHL player, 0.9 PPG player in 2 comparable European leagues Quist: 3rd top scorer in Danish league Fick: 0.5ish PPG player in the ECHL from defence last season Deutsch: 24 year old with KHL, SHL and EBEL league experience Herr: 3 straight season AHLer with no drop downs at 26 going into his prime Carr: 5 seasons over 90% save ratio goalie in the ECHL Matheson: career AHLer with SHL experience Golokovs: KHL experience at 24 0.8 PPG Elite league player Malmquist: 0.75 PPG NCAA player at 22 who was invited to the Wild camp Connelly: career AHLer, with SHL and EBEL experience When you start to line those up, there’s some big league experience (however small) that are comparable with some of the other teams Granted we don’t have that 500 game KHLer or the massive ex NHLer, but other than Ling, when has that worked for us? On paper, I 100% agree that it doesn’t look as strong. But build in that experience alongside players who will probably look to push themselves to bigger leagues, maybe we have decided to spend the money on players on an upward trend rather than those on the downward. Maybe we’ve gone “come here, we’ll give you a chance to put yourself in the shop window to earn better money in a better league next season if you can come here and light it up.” It’s a massive risk but we’ve gone the other way for so long, why not give this approach a go I really don’t know the finances but maybe GD and TW have invested in but I wanted to ply devils advocate here. Very easy for us to look at a CV and say “he’s expensive” I’m hoping this prompts some debate I alluded to this point on the Panthers roster thread that our squad this year is more difficult to read because of the different direction we have take but if you delve a little deeper and put some of these CV's into context i think there is more potential in this squad than immediately hits the eye. I'm actually more optimistic that this will be our best season for while and and improvement on the previous 2. The others might have some big pedigree signings from top leagues but the reason they are coming here is because they're ageing and no longer good enough for that level. These signings are as much a gamble as any other as their cv's command a big wage but you could still end up with someone who doesn't have the legs anymore or determination anymore or just after a hockey retirement home. The kind of players we have that have typically been called panthers type signings in the past Absolutely. I think people have a certain expectation about who we should sign but when it's broken down, there a lot more to it. I will always have my worries but right now, I don't feel that underwhelmed. Like you, I am actually a little optimistic
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Post by wgray on Aug 4, 2019 16:20:50 GMT
I suppose from my point of view, it’s about now a budget is used. Are we trying to lure people in for bigger wages who may have took their first steps in Europe in German, Czech, Swedish or Slovakian leagues first (Herr, Carr, Malmqvist,Fick ) added proven European players (Matheson,Connelly, Jakobs, Loiseau) and then gambles on players who haven’t been tested too much (Deutsch and Golokovs) to build around a dynamic? If you look at the players on an individual basis: Loiseau: point a game ECHL player, 0.9 PPG player in 2 comparable European leagues Quist: 3rd top scorer in Danish league Fick: 0.5ish PPG player in the ECHL from defence last season Deutsch: 24 year old with KHL, SHL and EBEL league experience Herr: 3 straight season AHLer with no drop downs at 26 going into his prime Carr: 5 seasons over 90% save ratio goalie in the ECHL Matheson: career AHLer with SHL experience Golokovs: KHL experience at 24 0.8 PPG Elite league player Malmquist: 0.75 PPG NCAA player at 22 who was invited to the Wild camp Connelly: career AHLer, with SHL and EBEL experience When you start to line those up, there’s some big league experience (however small) that are comparable with some of the other teams Granted we don’t have that 500 game KHLer or the massive ex NHLer, but other than Ling, when has that worked for us? On paper, I 100% agree that it doesn’t look as strong. But build in that experience alongside players who will probably look to push themselves to bigger leagues, maybe we have decided to spend the money on players on an upward trend rather than those on the downward. Maybe we’ve gone “come here, we’ll give you a chance to put yourself in the shop window to earn better money in a better league next season if you can come here and light it up.” It’s a massive risk but we’ve gone the other way for so long, why not give this approach a go I really don’t know the finances but maybe GD and TW have invested in but I wanted to ply devils advocate here. Very easy for us to look at a CV and say “he’s expensive” I’m hoping this prompts some debate I alluded to this point on the Panthers roster thread that our squad this year is more difficult to read because of the different direction we have take but if you delve a little deeper and put some of these CV's into context i think there is more potential in this squad than immediately hits the eye. I'm actually more optimistic that this will be our best season for while and and improvement on the previous 2. The others might have some big pedigree signings from top leagues but the reason they are coming here is because they're ageing and no longer good enough for that level. These signings are as much a gamble as any other as their cv's command a big wage but you could still end up with someone who doesn't have the legs anymore or determination anymore or just after a hockey retirement home. The kind of players we have that have typically been called panthers type signings in the past Fair point Lee, I hope you’re right. If, as we suspect, we’ve still got two players to sign, and they are big, experienced signings, that may be a sign that we’ve spent similar to the other clubs. If we don’t, and we sign players with similar sorts of CV’s to what we already have, then it would help if GD came out and give us fans some insight on the team he’s constructed and which players we can expect to be team leaders. Pies earlier post could be close to the truth.
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Post by pantherlee on Aug 4, 2019 16:36:35 GMT
Dylan Malmquist is the perfect case in point. He's 22 so he's not going to have a big CV full of many years in the SHL/KHL etc but that doesn't mean he hasn't got the quality to get to the big leagues further into his career. Someone like Martin St.Pierre may have done all that but he's 35 now and he'll never do it again and won't get any better
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Aug 4, 2019 16:43:33 GMT
I would say last years squad was pretty expensive and we had a very experienced coach at the helm. Is it possible that Black is not splashing the cash until Doucet and Wallace prove themselves, and/if that happens then the budget will start to increase That is quite plausible. I hope Wallace gets 3 years and be allowed to build something Agreed on both counts. That is a very plausible scenario... and (unless it all goes horribly wrong in the same irretrievable manner as with Chernomaz last season) Wallace has got to be given time. The trouble is, this is all totally shooting in the dark... we don't know what the budget of any club (including our own) is, and we don't know what the wages of any player (including our own) are. We don't even know what the plans or intentions of any owner (including our own) are. All we have are guesses and assumptions.
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Pies
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Post by Pies on Aug 4, 2019 16:44:46 GMT
That is quite plausible. I hope Wallace gets 3 years and be allowed to build something Agreed on both counts. That is a very plausible scenario... and (unless it all goes horribly wrong in the same irretrievable manner as with Chernomaz last season) Wallace has got to be given time. The trouble is, this is all totally shooting in the dark... we don't know what the budget of any club (including our own) is, and we don't know what the wages of any player (including our own) are. We don't even know what the plans or intentions of any owner (including our own) are. All we have are guesses and assumptions. I think this thread needs to go into cage forum gold....Pidge and Shaggy agreeing....the worlds gone mad!
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Shaggy
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Post by Shaggy on Aug 4, 2019 17:13:13 GMT
Agreed on both counts. That is a very plausible scenario... and (unless it all goes horribly wrong in the same irretrievable manner as with Chernomaz last season) Wallace has got to be given time. The trouble is, this is all totally shooting in the dark... we don't know what the budget of any club (including our own) is, and we don't know what the wages of any player (including our own) are. We don't even know what the plans or intentions of any owner (including our own) are. All we have are guesses and assumptions. I think this thread needs to go into cage forum gold....Pidge and Shaggy agreeing....the worlds gone mad! You know what they say... even a stopped clock is right twice a day!
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Post by wgray on Aug 4, 2019 17:36:10 GMT
That is quite plausible. I hope Wallace gets 3 years and be allowed to build something Agreed on both counts. That is a very plausible scenario... and (unless it all goes horribly wrong in the same irretrievable manner as with Chernomaz last season) Wallace has got to be given time. The trouble is, this is all totally shooting in the dark... we don't know what the budget of any club (including our own) is, and we don't know what the wages of any player (including our own) are. We don't even know what the plans or intentions of any owner (including our own) are. All we have are guesses and assumptions. I agree, but don’t you also believe that you can make an assumption that a player, with more experience in perceived better leagues, will be earning more than someone who hasn’t had that same experience. For example Micheal Davies of the Steelers, in comparison to Alexis Loiseau of the Panthers, both likely to be top 6 players for their teams, one has spent the majority of their career in AHL, ECHL, DEL and EBEL, the other ECHL, DEL2, Denmark, Slovakia. I’m not going to be naive and say there are no other factors involved but experience alone is a good indicator of a players quality and value surely?
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Aug 4, 2019 17:39:49 GMT
That's the pitfalls of bringing players in who light it up straight away..better leagues will come calling Not always if you treat them right Pidge, plenty stayed more than a year around the league,Fournier,Martin, Murphy, Lake etc to name a few. Some good new players hang around,the problem tends to be just not at Panthers though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 17:43:31 GMT
Thats probably another reason why this team looks cheaper compared to the other 3 that if these players have great seasons Panthers will have scope to offer them good pay rises next year and keep a core of them
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Aug 4, 2019 17:49:59 GMT
It could probably be argued that as a rookie coach and rookie DOH that Wallace and Doucet don’t want to coach big names. As one of our NHLers said to me way back when Adey was Panthers rookie coach that the training sessions were poor and it was just the sort of stuff they did in juniors back home.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2019 18:01:02 GMT
It could probably be argued that as a rookie coach and rookie DOH that Wallace and Doucet don’t want to coach big names. As one of our NHLers said to me way back when Adey was Panthers rookie coach that the training sessions were poor and it was just the sort of stuff they did in juniors back home. I'm not sure I agree with that. Wallace has played at a high level event though hes just starting out on the coaching road. Adey you can understand as he never had that high level experience so perhaps didn't know the training methods of what s former NHLer expected . You can argue Aaron Fox is a rookie coach. He has minimal experience too but still has signed the big CV players
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 4, 2019 18:16:37 GMT
Belfast’s perceived budget increase may be due to this season being their 20th anniversary season
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iginla
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Post by iginla on Aug 4, 2019 19:24:09 GMT
Panthers budget is simply that Black is a tightwad and won’t spend anywhere near what he could. Just imagine....one Panthers home game probably grosses around £80k and even IF every main player was on £1k a week which they aren’t,that would only be £20k a week in player wages. That leaves a heck of a sizeable chunk left to pay the other costs.
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dp
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Post by dp on Aug 4, 2019 21:02:22 GMT
Panthers budget is simply that Black is a tightwad and won’t spend anywhere near what he could. Just imagine....one Panthers home game probably grosses around £80k and even IF every main player was on £1k a week which they aren’t,that would only be £20k a week in player wages. That leaves a heck of a sizeable chunk left to pay the other costs. I distinctly remember Black saying that the way to run a financially sustainable Elite League franchise is that the playing budget is set entirely by season ticket revenue - so you start the season with a squad paid for just by that. And he said you have to be cautious and presume you'll get no further revenue after season ticket sales until you've actually got it, and then at Christmas if you've got some extra money you can perhaps spend a bit more if needed. When you think about it, that perfectly explains how Panthers teams are run, and why we generally do better in the play offs than the league. I'd love to believe all the positive thoughts about this season's squad but, unless Wallace is the best coach in UK hockey history, then Panthers aren't going to be troubling the trophy challengers this season unless big changes are made. If we even get close then the approach of Cardiff, Belfast and Sheffield spending big and winning the league all the time will have been shown up as a pointless fluke and that Caps, Dundee and Fife were doing it right all along but just got unlucky or had the wrong coaches.....
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Post by spik on Aug 4, 2019 21:31:36 GMT
Panthers budget is simply that Black is a tightwad and won’t spend anywhere near what he could. Just imagine....one Panthers home game probably grosses around £80k and even IF every main player was on £1k a week which they aren’t,that would only be £20k a week in player wages. That leaves a heck of a sizeable chunk left to pay the other costs. I distinctly remember Black saying that the way to run a financially sustainable Elite League franchise is that the playing budget is set entirely by season ticket revenue - so you start the season with a squad paid for just by that. And he said you have to be cautious and presume you'll get no further revenue after season ticket sales until you've actually got it, and then at Christmas if you've got some extra money you can perhaps spend a bit more if needed. When you think about it, that perfectly explains how Panthers teams are run, and why we generally do better in the play offs than the league. I'd love to believe all the positive thoughts about this season's squad but, unless Wallace is the best coach in UK hockey history, then Panthers aren't going to be troubling the trophy challengers this season unless big changes are made. If we even get close then the approach of Cardiff, Belfast and Sheffield spending big and winning the league all the time will have been shown up as a pointless fluke and that Caps, Dundee and Fife were doing it right all along but just got unlucky or had the wrong coaches..... That's a good attendance last season then and so we should see a good return in spends over this? Oh no, more likely a poor take up for this and thus reason to hold back the purse strings. Though you should be recruiting in advance of knowing sales for the upcoming season surely?
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Gilly
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Post by Gilly on Aug 5, 2019 7:48:40 GMT
Hate to add fuel to the fire, as i'm very much waiting to see how this season pans out, but i'm also unsure as to where the Farmer/Lee wages have been spent also? They both would have been on a premium no doubt and we haven't replaced them.
However, just to contradict myself, i'm very much in the "Give all the guys who have signed a chance" camp. Panthers could spend as little as they want for me so long as we are competing/successful/hard working/entertaining.
An ideal world would be we win everything, spending the least amount of money in the league - then everybody is happy are they not?
lets wait and see
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