loupowell52
Robert Lachowicz
Grape Aficionado
Posts: 444
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Post by loupowell52 on Apr 19, 2019 6:29:42 GMT
In the words of Led Zeppelin, Panthers top brass have a Communication Breakdown. Fans want/should/deserve to know what is happening in terms of next season's coaching and roster as a matter of simply building trust and transparency. Put aside the fact that it is the ever so loyal fan base that (a) pays the Off/On Ice persons wages and (b) generates the annual profits for ownership. Panthers could do much worse that follow the example if sister club Glasgow Clan who seem to actually have a genuine interest in their supporters.
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,374
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Post by iginla on Apr 19, 2019 7:53:23 GMT
When was the last time we actually heard ANYTHING from Mr Black ? I’m struggling to recall many if any interviews or written words from him since the last fan forum a couple of years ago. Surely they must realise that fans are very unhappy yet it’s just a big fat nothing from Black. No reason to while the crowds & money continues to come in. You’re absolutely right there. The biggest single obstacle to Nottingham Panthers on ice success is their fans. Far far too many of them seem only too happy to be taken for a ride and put up with crap !!!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 8:20:47 GMT
No reason to while the crowds & money continues to come in. You’re absolutely right there. The biggest single obstacle to Nottingham Panthers on ice success is their fans. Far far too many of them seem only too happy to be taken for a ride and put up with crap !!! I've said the very same on Twitter and get called out for it!
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Yotes
Forum Admin
Posts: 16,244
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Post by Yotes on Apr 19, 2019 8:22:05 GMT
When was the last time we actually heard ANYTHING from Mr Black ? This year, he did that interview with Chris Ellis after he sacked Chernoclue.
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Post by ted logan on Apr 19, 2019 9:07:27 GMT
You’re absolutely right there. The biggest single obstacle to Nottingham Panthers on ice success is their fans. Far far too many of them seem only too happy to be taken for a ride and put up with crap !!! I've said the very same on Twitter and get called out for it! Clearly neither of you are “true fans” then 🤔
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,374
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Post by iginla on Apr 19, 2019 9:39:13 GMT
When was the last time we actually heard ANYTHING from Mr Black ? This year, he did that interview with Chris Ellis after he sacked Chernoclue. He did i remember now. Must dig that interview out and listen again to what I will guess is full of a load of crap that mostly didn’t come true !
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,374
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Post by iginla on Apr 19, 2019 9:40:03 GMT
I've said the very same on Twitter and get called out for it! Clearly neither of you are “true fans” then 🤔 Not any more no...given up until things change.
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oldman
Simon Hunt
The World is full of experts
Posts: 1,111
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Post by oldman on Apr 21, 2019 14:16:35 GMT
Not wanting to defend Black far from it, but does he know how angry and fed up people are ? GM will feed him what information he thinks is relavent and none of that will be sourced from 'The CAge'Also his sons used to be well into the social media esp Twitter but not seen much from them in the last twelve months has dad had a word?
The stumbling block has always been GM You could call him a hockey Luddite what worked before is good enough for him.
Also not sure we should denegrate others that go to the games simply because they like the game and the atmosphere and for them if we win it's a bonus and not the be all and end all that we think it is. We cant all be the same,
i would just add one other thing saying the best thing would be for Black to sell up is dangerous given what happens in Football all too often when the ownership changes, Forest, Blackburn, Bolton, Coventry and the Pies for example, sometimes it's better the devil you know.
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Post by nightwish on Apr 21, 2019 14:45:50 GMT
Oldman makes some good points, the problem with the Panthers is the communication and use of social media is so poor that does anyone know whatBlacks priority for the Club is? Is it to make £x profit per year, is it to get into Europe and everything after that is a bonus, is it to win the league - I have no idea.
Smart use of social media ( and no Squeelers don’t smay use social media as they have a dim wit in charge of it) is a powerful tool.
The days of the ‘Nottingham Post’ being the main communication channel ended years ago - whether Panthers, or Squeelers, or whatever organisation it is cant ‘control’ the news, they just have to manage it smartly - and coming out with ‘A Panthers Spkeswomen said’ is just bizarre.
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Post by wgray on Apr 21, 2019 15:39:00 GMT
Not wanting to defend Black far from it, but does he know how angry and fed up people are ? GM will feed him what information he thinks is relavent and none of that will be sourced from 'The CAge'Also his sons used to be well into the social media esp Twitter but not seen much from them in the last twelve months has dad had a word? The stumbling block has always been GM You could call him a hockey Luddite what worked before is good enough for him. Also not sure we should denegrate others that go to the games simply because they like the game and the atmosphere and for them if we win it's a bonus and not the be all and end all that we think it is. We cant all be the same, i would just add one other thing saying the best thing would be for Black to sell up is dangerous given what happens in Football all too often when the ownership changes, Forest, Blackburn, Bolton, Coventry and the Pies for example, sometimes it's better the devil you know. The last thing that a smart business man does is fail to obtain feedback from customers and their opinions. As there is no direct link between Black and the fans he must obtain information via other routes, the most common way is via social media. I would be very surprised if Black hasn’t done his own research, he should have looked at the opinions of fans on Facebook, Twitter, The Cage. From these sites you will get a range of opinions but the general feeling should be clear. I don’t believe he’s naive, he will know that the opinions of club employees will be softened, he will obtain a true image of the situation by doing his own research. The only thing we can do as fans is reiterate our feelings and intentions if nothing changes within the club.
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Yotes
Forum Admin
Posts: 16,244
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Post by Yotes on Apr 21, 2019 17:07:25 GMT
Also not sure we should denegrate others that go to the games simply because they like the game and the atmosphere and for them if we win it's a bonus and not the be all and end all that we think it is. We cant all be the same, That one works both ways, in fairness. I only have a look on the Twitter account sometimes, but there's plenty of not-a-proper-fan-ery from the other direction too. i would just add one other thing saying the best thing would be for Black to sell up is dangerous given what happens in Football all too often when the ownership changes, Forest, Blackburn, Bolton, Coventry and the Pies for example, sometimes it's better the devil you know. Cardiff did ok with their last change. Sometimes the grass does turn out to be greener. Plus Neil only owns half, so we'd need the Bermuda Boys to swan off too.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 17:45:43 GMT
Does anyone know who these people are. Silent owners? Sounds pretty dodgy to me
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Yotes
Forum Admin
Posts: 16,244
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Post by Yotes on Apr 21, 2019 18:31:38 GMT
Does anyone know who these people are. Silent owners? Sounds pretty dodgy to me Permanent Mutual Limited. They own half of Sportscape, along with Neil, and Sportscape own 85% of Aladdin (Panthers), and all of The Clan. Just an investment company making a good investment, nothing dodgy.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 18:38:41 GMT
So they are directors more than just owners? I doubt they need to sanction much if NB wants to sell up. Its Aladdin management who own the Panthers and NB is the figurehead to that company right? Seems like Aladdin are part of this group but should effect any sale.. it does sound more complicated I guess
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Yotes
Forum Admin
Posts: 16,244
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Post by Yotes on Apr 21, 2019 18:55:37 GMT
Someone like Bob would know better than me the ins and outs, but yes Neil is the only listed director I think, he runs it. They'll only be interested at the highest level, the overall performance of the business.
But if you wanted to buy the lot, you'd need their shares.
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Post by bobness on Apr 21, 2019 19:08:44 GMT
Does anyone know who these people are. Silent owners? Sounds pretty dodgy to me Permanent Mutual Limited. They own half of Sportscape, along with Neil, and Sportscape own 85% of Aladdin (Panthers), and all of The Clan. Just an investment company making a good investment, nothing dodgy. The three main men are the top row here. www.icm.limited/our-peoplePanthers are chicken feed to them. Loose change. They wouldn't know what a hockey stick was if you showed it to them, is my guess. UIL Limited, just one of the companies they own, manages half a billion pounds of assets.
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meadow
Jade Galbraith
Posts: 178
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Post by meadow on Apr 21, 2019 22:46:42 GMT
Just trying to get this straight in my head here, so the business structure goes:
- Aladdin (management company for Panthers) - Sportscape (investment company owning all of Clan and 85% Panthers) - PML (larger investment company with 50% ownership in Sportscape with NB)
The upshot of that being that NB owns 50% of Clan and 42.5% of Panthers shared with the 50% and 42.5% of each owned by the PML investors. In which case the PML guys probably only care that Panthers / Clan are a relatively stable part of a sports portfolio that brings in a fairly consistent yield of X% per annum. I also wonder who the minority 15% ownership of the Panthers is??
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,374
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Post by iginla on Apr 21, 2019 22:56:31 GMT
So Bob.....tell us why Bermuda ? I’m assuming tax purposes.
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Yotes
Forum Admin
Posts: 16,244
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Post by Yotes on Apr 22, 2019 2:10:22 GMT
Just trying to get this straight in my head here, so the business structure goes: - Aladdin (management company for Panthers) - Sportscape (investment company owning all of Clan and 85% Panthers) - PML (larger investment company with 50% ownership in Sportscape with NB) Yes, that's my reading of it anyway. I also wonder who the minority 15% ownership of the Panthers is?? There are 283000 shares available in Aladdin Management, 233k of which are held by Sportscape, the other 50k being held 50:50 between "B. Webber Holdings" and a certain Freddie Black, who is also a director along with his father (to correct my earlier comment). That's as of the last filing date for that info, June 2018.
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Apr 22, 2019 2:18:38 GMT
So Bob.....tell us why Bermuda ? I’m assuming tax purposes. It’s a tax haven. At least some of the listed directors will be local agents as per Bermuda law (required for local companies, bank accounts etc).
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,374
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Post by iginla on Apr 22, 2019 7:13:28 GMT
So Bob.....tell us why Bermuda ? I’m assuming tax purposes. It’s a tax haven. At least some of the listed directors will be local agents as per Bermuda law (required for local companies, bank accounts etc). I think we can now safely say that there is rather a large amount of profit in Nottingham Panthers wouldn’t you ? After all,why would you go to these complicated lengths if there wasn’t ! Just a pity not enough of it finds its way onto the ice !!!
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Post by The Flying Shirt on Apr 22, 2019 7:25:26 GMT
It’s a tax haven. At least some of the listed directors will be local agents as per Bermuda law (required for local companies, bank accounts etc). I think we can now safely say that there is rather a large amount of profit in Nottingham Panthers wouldn’t you ? After all,why would you go to these complicated lengths if there wasn’t ! Just a pity not enough of it finds its way onto the ice !!! Tax is only due on profit and to go to the trouble of an off shore tax haven it would need to be a substantial amount. And then the real head scratcher is the sponsorship from a trades union (who when it suits them hate this sort of thing) and a substantial working class fan base. There is nothing warm and cuddly about Panthers org and I find the whole set up a very hard thing to be a supporter of. The whole thing seems to be set up for the short term and not to be caught fighting for a chair when the music stops.
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shinobi
Randall Weber
Forum Dictator
Posts: 4,668
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Post by shinobi on Apr 22, 2019 10:25:59 GMT
Short term has been a slogan for the sport in this country for a long, long time.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2019 15:12:32 GMT
And our fantastic owners still remains quiet apart from selling a few old sticks for cash it seems..
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iginla
Chick Zamick
Posts: 13,374
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Post by iginla on Apr 23, 2019 17:07:24 GMT
And our fantastic owners still remains quiet apart from selling a few old sticks for cash it seems.. Don’t worry Pidge. I’m sure there will be something really interesting along soon,like a new sponsorship deal with a second hand car dealer,that Moran has raided the store cupboard once again and found yet more old shirts or that Lacho is really looking forward to playing for GB. 🙄
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